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Can an IC with the infiltrate USR start the game with a unit that doesn't that USR, thereby allowing them to deploy as infiltrators?

Short answer - No.

A unit with Infiltrate deploys after all other units are deployed. An IC can only join a unit by both being in reserve (so you can give Outflank) or by being deployed in coherency. In this case the unit you want to infiltrate is deployed before they have infiltrate.

No. Reread page 39, which tels you an IC may only start the game with a deployed unit, by being deployed within coherency of it.

This requires the unit to already be on the table, and they therefore CANNOT infiltrate at this point, as they do not (yet) have the rule

Coming from the Eldar Tactics thread, my point in quoting the Shrike Errata wasn't to agree with him granting Infiltrate, it was to point out why people let him get away with it. It relys on a defunct set of rules and until the SM codex gets an update I expect him to stay ineffective. Sorry if my wording didn't give that impression.

Does the game not start before deployment? Turn one is the start of the mission, not the start of the game.

It says that the IC can start the game with a unit if it is deployed in coherency. Does this not mean that it starts the game with them and is deployed in coherency with them - a deployment that is modified by the Infiltrate USR, which the IC is giving them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shrike is my example. He confers infiltrate to a unit that he joins before deployment. If he cannot join a unit before deployment, then he cannot confer infiltrate. Therefore, shrike would not be able to infiltrate a unit forward; only shrike could infiltrate forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

S.K.Ren wrote:
Coming from the Eldar Tactics thread, my point in quoting the Shrike Errata wasn't to agree with him granting Infiltrate, it was to point out why people let him get away with it. It relys on a defunct set of rules and until the SM codex gets an update I expect him to stay ineffective. Sorry if my wording didn't give that impression.

So people are breaking RAW to allow Shrike to be more effective?

 warpspider89 wrote:
Does the game not start before deployment? Turn one is the start of the mission, not the start of the game.

It says that the IC can start the game with a unit if it is deployed in coherency. Does this not mean that it starts the game with them and is deployed in coherency with them - a deployment that is modified by the Infiltrate USR, which the IC is giving them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shrike is my example. He confers infiltrate to a unit that he joins before deployment. If he cannot join a unit before deployment, then he cannot confer infiltrate. Therefore, shrike would not be able to infiltrate a unit forward; only shrike could infiltrate forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

S.K.Ren wrote:
Coming from the Eldar Tactics thread, my point in quoting the Shrike Errata wasn't to agree with him granting Infiltrate, it was to point out why people let him get away with it. It relys on a defunct set of rules and until the SM codex gets an update I expect him to stay ineffective. Sorry if my wording didn't give that impression.

So people are breaking RAW to allow Shrike to be more effective?

This same exact situation came up in 5th edition. GW eventually released a FAQ allowing ICs to join a unit pre-deployment. If GW ever releases the FAQ to address this, then and only then will an IC be able to confer Infiltrate on a unit.

 warpspider89 wrote:
Shrike is my example. He confers infiltrate to a unit that he joins before deployment. If he cannot join a unit before deployment, then he cannot confer infiltrate. Therefore, shrike would not be able to infiltrate a unit forward; only shrike could infiltrate forward.

Yes, this is a known hole in the current rules.

In 5th edition, they fixed this by changing the IC rules to allow ICs to join units prior to deployment. For some bizarre reason, this change was not carried over into 6th edition, and ICs reverted to joining as they deploy.

So despite the fact that Shrike is clearly supposed to be able to infiltrate with a unit, there is currently no legal way for him to actually do so.


Because the intent is clear here, though, it's quite commonly allowed anyway.

Ok, we have

Deployment: Part of the game setup.
Deploy Forces: The step where you actually place models on the board.
Deploy: To place a unit on the board.
Deployed Units: Units that are already placed on the board.

IC Pg 39 BRB
Joining and Leaving a Unit
An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

This uses the 'deployed' term. The only way I can interpret this is that both the unit to join and the IC must be deployed and be in coherency to start as one unit.

SM FAQ Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule.

This uses 'Deployment'
My guess is they dropped the ball when they FAQ's his rules to include him being allowed to join a unit before deployment, which is the only way to make 'See, But Remain Unseen' work as an IC cannot join a unit until after it has been deployed in coherency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah what insaniak said.

So wouldn't people do that for most infiltrating ICs? haha

I feel like the wording is awkward. I also think that it largely depends on when the "game" starts. If it starts after deployment then no but if it starts before you roll for missions then yes. I would argue the latter since that makes more sense. Maybe I'm totally off base.

I guess since the wording is so...difficult it will need to be FAQed

Thanks for all the input everyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would encourage everyone to email GW about this so that it can be fixed. A lot of armies would gain tactical benefits from their ICs, those with the infiltrate USR, being able to use that fully with a non-infiltrating unit.

Lets fix a messed up rule.

 warpspider89 wrote:
Lets fix a messed up rule.

You mean blasts/large blasts? GW is trying (oh how they try), yet unfortunately due to the wording of applicable rules if a blast scatters into another unit, not only can you not allocate wounds to models out of sight in that unit they don't even get to take saves against them...

Yes that is messed up too. Unfortunately it is also off topic.

Even though I could make a few gimmick moves, I do not want to see them changing the rules to allow before deployment joining. It would solve this issue but there is some broken, though humorous, situations that could arise that really shouldn't. Riptides appearing on your doorstep in turn 1 then vanishing almost completely into a rock field that doesn't cover his ankles kinds of silly.

If they want Just Shrike to have the ability, which it is clear he should, they should write the FAQ so it is clearly limits it to just him which is why it was probably dropped, being to general. 'This ability grants one unit infiltration before deployment, Shrike must be placed in coherence with with selected unit' sort of terminology that clearly limits it to just him and one unit. Other limitations should apply, of course, but that is up to other people then us.

Clear what Shrike is meant to do but the fact he can't legally do it is one of the many example of badly meshing rules.

I've heard a fairly convincing argument from Daboarder on BoLS:

Alright rules time:

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.
This says we begin by "deploying" with a unit so we go see what the deployment rules say.

The sequence for Infiltrators and Scouts is the same in all
Eternal War missions. First, both players deploy their forces
(apart from any units left kept as Reserves or that chose to use
their Infiltrate special rule).
Given the wording as transferable and the fact that deployment refers to the broad "subphase" of the game, not just the placement of units on the board, its pretty clear what is intended by GW.

The IC begins the game with the unit, as such during "deployment" the unit has the infiltrate special rule and is therefore eligible to use it.

Thoughts?

The argument against has been the same for at least 3 editions now, aside from the brief stint where they addressed it in 5th.

It's as presented earlier in the thread. You deploy your army, aside from Infiltrators and Reserves. After everything else has deployed, you deploy infiltrators.

There is no permission to hold back a unit that doesn't have the ability to infiltrate from that initial deployment in the hope that it will have the infiltrate rule when it comes time to deploy infiltrators.

The IC can only join the unit by being deployed with them,. Since the unit had to deploy at the regular deployment step, there is simply no way for this to result in the unit infiltrating with the IC. It just can't happen under the current rules.



Edit for clarity and spelling...

From zenBen of BoLS:

In the 'no' camp who argue that Infiltrate cannot be granted by an IC, the main foundation of the argument rests on interpreting this rule to mean a player cannot deploy the non-Infiltrate unit with the Infiltrate IC already attached. The important part is the first two clauses of the sentence, separated by a comma and preceding the word 'or'.
But the hermeneutics of the sentence do not allow such an easy interpretation. Within the first two clauses, the act of 'being deployed in unit coherency' may refer to one of two states occurring before the comma: beginning the game, or being with (joining) a unit.
In the first reading, 'being deployed in unit coherency' permits the unit with joined IC to be deployed; in the second reading, 'being deployed in unit coherency' describes how to get the unit and IC to be joined. I suppose the reading you choose depends on whether you consider the joining of the unit and IC to be a state or a process.

and Eris of the same site:

Which kind of leaves us with using 'logical conclusion' from other rules.

The opening line of Infiltrate is.. "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule.."
Is there any such unit we're aware of in which only 1 model has infiltrate? Or can this wording only possibly refer to an IC joining a unit without infiltrate?

 warpspider89 wrote:
From zenBen of BoLS:

But this doesn't matter. No matter how you look at it the unit has to be deployed before the IC can join it, whether that joining happens when the models are successfully placed on the table or at some off-table joining. The IC does not get to deploy until the "deploy infiltrators" step, while all non-infiltrating unit have either deployed or committed to reserve before that step. Whatever the joining method when the IC gets its chance to join anything the unit is already gone.

Is there any such unit we're aware of in which only 1 model has infiltrate?

Also doesn't matter. Just like the vector dancer USR was in the core rulebook but not used by any units until later this could be nothing more than GW leaving their options open for a wolf guard style unit that could put a single infiltrating model into a unit without being an IC.

The 1 model thing can be used by reserving a IC with unit and having them outflank?

MarkyMark wrote:
The 1 model thing can be used by reserving a IC with unit and having them outflank?

Yes. An IC with Infiltrate does allow a unit they attach to in Reserve to Outflank. This is not in dispute at this point.

Actually, it is. Under the Infiltrate and Reserve rules as currently written, there is a little disagreement as to whether an IC with infiltrate can go into Reserves with a non-Infiltrating unit. There was a thread on it a couple of weeks ago, if anyone cares enough to look it up.

Having said that, the general assumption seems to be that this is ok.

What about the other way around?

Could an IC join in with a squad that has infiltrate?

I want to have my Farseer infiltrate in with some Striking Scorions.

-Dinkins

No, same reason.
The Farseer would have to be deployed with the rest of the army.

Rats.

Infiltrate says:
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last..."
The only way for a unit to have a single model with infiltrate is for said unit to have an IC attached to it. Why would the first sentence in the rule be as stated above if ICs weren't able to join a unit and confer the Infiltrate USR?

Most likely the intent is that an IC can share the rule. However, and this had to be FAQd in 5th edition (not sure about 4th), as the rules currently stand, the IC cannot join.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Infiltrate says:
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last..."
The only way for a unit to have a single model with infiltrate is for said unit to have an IC attached to it. Why would the first sentence in the rule be as stated above if ICs weren't able to join a unit and confer the Infiltrate USR?

When the 6th edition rulebook was released, there was not a single unit in the game that had access to 'Flakk Missiles'. Why would these things be included in the rules if nobody can make use of them?


Ultimately, we can only ever guess what GW intended with a given rule. Captain Shrike's special rule is a fairly clear indication that ICs are supposed to be able to infiltrate with a unit... but then, they fixed that in 5th, and then broke it again in 6th. So, really, maybe they actually intended something else entirely, and the line in the infiltrate rule is just there to cover any situation that might arise in future codexes where one model in the unit is an infiltrator.

Until GW FAQ it, we'll just have to guess.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Infiltrate says:
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last..."
The only way for a unit to have a single model with infiltrate is for said unit to have an IC attached to it. Why would the first sentence in the rule be as stated above if ICs weren't able to join a unit and confer the Infiltrate USR?

There are units with infiltrators and non-infiltrators mixed.
A Wolf Guard part of Wolf Scouts for example.

 Happyjew wrote:
Most likely the intent is that an IC can share the rule. However, and this had to be FAQd in 5th edition (not sure about 4th), as the rules currently stand, the IC cannot join.

I know it was FAQd in 5th which is why Im confused why people are questioning it again and my real thought is are people seriously going to be giant Douche Nozzles about it or just go with how the rule was meant to be used? I mean, why else would it be stated the way it is AND with a special character (shrike) that's whole reason for being is to infiltrate with a unit that doesnt have it?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Infiltrate says:
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last..."
The only way for a unit to have a single model with infiltrate is for said unit to have an IC attached to it. Why would the first sentence in the rule be as stated above if ICs weren't able to join a unit and confer the Infiltrate USR?

There are units with infiltrators and non-infiltrators mixed.
A Wolf Guard part of Wolf Scouts for example.

Is it really possible for an IC without infiltrate to infiltrate with a unit that has infiltrate?

I don't think so based on the discussion that we have been having. The IC simply could not be deployed in coherency with the unit that has infiltrate and, therefore, could not join the unit.

 warpspider89 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Infiltrate says:
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last..."
The only way for a unit to have a single model with infiltrate is for said unit to have an IC attached to it. Why would the first sentence in the rule be as stated above if ICs weren't able to join a unit and confer the Infiltrate USR?

There are units with infiltrators and non-infiltrators mixed.
A Wolf Guard part of Wolf Scouts for example.

Is it really possible for an IC without infiltrate to infiltrate with a unit that has infiltrate?

I don't think so based on the discussion that we have been having. The IC simply could not be deployed in coherency with the unit that has infiltrate and, therefore, could not join the unit.

An IC? No. But Wolf Guard aren't IC's.

 warpspider89 wrote:
Is it really possible for an IC without infiltrate to infiltrate with a unit that has infiltrate?

I don't think so based on the discussion that we have been having. The IC simply could not be deployed in coherency with the unit that has infiltrate and, therefore, could not join the unit.

No, because the rules for Infiltrate specifically state that an IC needs Infiltrate to deploy with Infiltrators.