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cryhavok wrote:
*snip*

Here is a question for those arguing for stacking enfeebles: where are you given permission for one enfeeble to be different from another?

They are from different psykers. I say they stack, and the rules say -1 from Strength and Toughness. It doesnt say base toughness, just toughness, so if I do it one after the other it is -1, then -1 again. The book says different Maledictions stack. Even if we disagree on "different", where does it say that the same Malediction doesn't stack?

Permissive rules set. You are given permission for different meledictions to stack. No where is it given permission for the same ones to stack, therefore, only different meledictions may stack.

cryhavok wrote:

cryhavok wrote:
*snip*

Here is a question for those arguing for stacking enfeebles: where are you given permission for one enfeeble to be different from another?

They are from different psykers. I say they stack, and the rules say -1 from Strength and Toughness. It doesnt say base toughness, just toughness, so if I do it one after the other it is -1, then -1 again. The book says different Maledictions stack. Even if we disagree on "different", where does it say that the same Malediction doesn't stack?

Permissive rules set. You are given permission for different meledictions to stack. No where is it given permission for the same ones to stack, therefore, only different meledictions may stack.

Incorrect. We have permission to cast the power. We have permission to resolve the power. Find the denial.

There's nothing to say they don't stack. And you can't use the same power twice from the same psyker because its from the same model, and there's a rule saying you can't. There's nothing saying you can't use the same power against the same model. You CAN use it if it is from a DIFFERENT psyker, thereby making it a different psychic power.

I believe it is a different power, but lets play your game, and pretend they are "the same". There is a specific rule saying that a model (or unit) can't cast the power twice. There is no rule saying that a model (or unit) can't receive a malediction twice. If they'd meant for that to be a rule, they'd have said so. There is permission for two different psykers to cast the same power regardless of target. There in no rule in the BRB saying they can't both target the same unit. And, if they do target the same unit, there is NOTHING to say they don't stack. It really is that simple. The rules allow me to do this. The rules don't say I can't do this. Therefore, I am going to do this.

 jifel wrote:
You CAN use it if it is from a DIFFERENT psyker, thereby making it a different psychic power.

Why you keep saying this? It makes no sense whatsoever? By whom it was cast has absolutely no bearing on this.

Also, I have two Rhinos equipped with hunter killer missiles. Do these Rhinos have same or different vehicle upgrade?

"Different mledictions stack" does not logically mean "same maledictions do not stack".

Permissions are granted to expend warp charge and resolve powers without any check or restriction on existing maledictions.

 Crimson wrote:

 jifel wrote:
You CAN use it if it is from a DIFFERENT psyker, thereby making it a different psychic power.

Why you keep saying this? It makes no sense whatsoever? By whom it was cast has absolutely no bearing on this.

Also, I have two Rhinos equipped with hunter killer missiles. Do these Rhinos have same or different vehicle upgrade?

I keep saying this, because it was previously said that a rule says psykers cant use the same power twice, and they tried to bring that over to this.

If you have two Rhinos with HKs, then you have the same upgrade on different units. And you can use this same upgrade against the same target, and the effects will stack.


Just a note, how many times have we had this thread?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
"Different maledictions stack" does not logically mean "same maledictions do not stack".

Yes, it does, unless you are a WAAC rules-lawyer. If they meant all maledictions to stack, it would just say that maledictions stack, period.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/527208.page

This has really already been covered here...

Iranna.

 Crimson wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
"Different maledictions stack" does not logically mean "same maledictions do not stack".

Yes, it does, unless you are a WAAC rules-lawyer. If they meant all maledictions to stack, it would just say that maledictions stack, period.

This makes no sense. Its not "rules-lawyering" and "WAAC" to play by the rules given in the book, and to not play by the rules not given by the book. If you want to try to enforce rules on me that aren't written in the book, then I can start making up rules too! If it gets FAQed then end of story, fine, but as it is, there is no rule in the book. When there is no rule, you can't make me play that way. Calling someone "WAAC" instead of attacking their actual point is a logical fallacy. Whether or not any player is WAAC or a douchebag or whatever, doesn't change how valid their argument is. His argument is valid.

EDIT: Thank you Iranna. A note is in that thread, it was voted to stack 61% of the time, compared to 39% against. However, it is unlikely any of us will change the others mind before an FAQ. Until then I advise we all play it our way and check with an opponent, or a TO, ahead of time.

The denial is inherent to the powers. Is a model effected by "enfeeble" malediction? Yes - Read the rules to see what it's effect is.

Nothing in the rule book states that you make the logical jump that 2x malediction equal 2x the effect. The book tells you that different malediction stack, thus allowing you to add the effects from two difference maledictions that effect the same stat. Nothing in the book states that two of the same malediction are meant to be a cumulative effect.

 jifel wrote:

I keep saying this, because it was previously said that a rule says psykers cant use the same power twice, and they tried to bring that over to this.

Yes, and it was perfect example why your interpretation has to be wrong. If two instances of the same power are different powers, then they're different regardless of they were cast by same or different person. Your notion that having a different caster affects this is based on absolutely nothing.

If you have two Rhinos with HKs, then you have the same upgrade on different units. And you can use this same upgrade against the same target, and the effects will stack.

So they're same and not different, even though they're on different vehicles? Just like two enfeebles are same and not different? And there are clear rules how multiple weapons or units firing works, so that has nothing to do with stacking.

 Crimson wrote:

 jifel wrote:

I keep saying this, because it was previously said that a rule says psykers cant use the same power twice, and they tried to bring that over to this.

Yes, and it was perfect example why your interpretation has to be wrong. If two instances of the same power are different powers, then they're different regardless of they were cast by same or different person. Your notion that having a different caster affects this is based on absolutely nothing.

If you have two Rhinos with HKs, then you have the same upgrade on different units. And you can use this same upgrade against the same target, and the effects will stack.

So they're same and not different, even though they're on different vehicles? Just like two enfeebles are same and not different? And there are clear rules how multiple weapons or units firing works, so that has nothing to do with stacking.

Sigh... Alright. I was hoping we could both back down, only an FAQ will end this, and there has been multiple wasted threads on the subject, but lets keep dancing.

Someone said a psyker can't use the same power twice, which is in the BRB. They believe this means that using a power twice makes it "the same" due to this wording in a separate part of the book. However, this is frankly irrelevant. Even if the power is the same, it can still be used. There is no rule disallowing any power from hitting a unit twice. But, I believe it is different, because it originates from a different psyker.
Follow? Ok, next.

The Hunter Killers on the Rhinos. It is the same wargear for rules purposes due to having the same rules. However, on the tabletop, these two Missiles are different, because they are from different Rhinos. The RUles specifically allow these two Missiles to fire wherever they want, and nothing bars them from targeting the same unit. Two Enffebles are both allowed to target any enemy unit, and nothing bars them from targeting the same unit. Once they do target the same unit, there is nothing that prevents the effects from stacking.

If two castings of the same malediction are different, and therefore stack, then it is not possible to have anything other than different maledictions. If only different maledictions can exist, the sentence from the brb that states, "different maledictions may stack" serves no purpose, and has no relevancy. If you're interpretation of a rule invalidates a rule, and another interpretation does not, then the one with the conflict is the wrong interpretation.

If the rulebook said "ONLY different powers stack", then and only then would that rule affect the same power stacking. We can argue intent all day. If they really wanted to make it the way some people here seem to want it the rule would read "Only powers with different names may stack."

They could've wrote "Dogs make good pets." That doesn't mean a cat cannot make a good pet, nor would it have any effect on the rules.

They only thing the current rule does is give permission, unnecessarily, for different powers to stack. The statement does not deny permission for anything.

We can't ASSUME intent. It would be nice if GW stated their intentions for us but they don't, except in FAQs. And until they decide to clarify things down the road we have to assume they wrote the things the way they did on purpose.

 jifel wrote:

Someone said a psyker can't use the same power twice, which is in the BRB. They believe this means that using a power twice makes it "the same" due to this wording in a separate part of the book.

That does not make it same. Being same makes it same, and being same prevents it being cast twice. And I say this third time: if different instances of Enfeeble were not same power, same psyker could cast multiple Enfeebles, because he would not be casting the same power twice.

However, this is frankly irrelevant. Even if the power is the same, it can still be used. There is no rule disallowing any power from hitting a unit twice.

Yes, it can hit. And the unit is affected by Enfeeble suffering -1 to S and T. That penalty does not change whether there were one or seven Enfeebles, just like multiple Endurances do not give you better FNP.

But, I believe it is different, because it originates from a different psyker.

And on what you base this?

Given that the chances of having multiple entities capable of casting enfeeble is rather remote I don't see why it'd be a very big deal.

 Kain wrote:
Given that the chances of having multiple entities capable of casting enfeeble is rather remote I don't see why it'd be a very big deal.

Broodlords can get it right?

Anywy, this is not so much about Enfeeble, as it is about maledictions in general. And new Eldar are in theory spamming quite massive amount of maledictions. With the Iyanden supplement they can have twenty psykers in single FOC.

I'd say this issue is relevant. Psyker Heavy armies (I use 6 at least, as a rule) can easily roll multiple Enfeebles, and I have before.

Many of the arguments presented here have some support at least, even if I may not agree. The one that baffles me is the argument that "same" psychic powers don't stack. As was so nicely put in a post above, if I say dogs are good pets, it doesn't make cats bad pets. To say so is a logical fallacy, plain and simple. Why do you think they wouldn't, other than that you don't want them too? Just because different powers stack doesn't make "same" ones not stack.

Endurance is a different case. It supplies FnP, and if I give it to a unit twice, then dangit the unit has two FnPs. However the rules only allow one FnP roll to be made, so having multiple FnP is redundant. Not to mention, modifiers and special rules are different things. Modifiers stack, as can be shown by a unit with multiple Hammerhands. If a Libby in a terminator squad both get HH, they get +1 strength twice. Why can I not give them -1 strength twice?

I cast enfeeble. You are now at -1T

I cast enfeeble from another source. Find where you are now NOT -1 (-1)T, but only _1T. Page and para

Actual rules, not insults of being WAAC ruleslwayers please

"The target suffers -1 Strength and Toughness while the power is in effect..."
Enfeeble, BRB

"...the unit have +1 strength until the end of the assault phase..."
Hammerhand, Codex: Grey Knights

Hammerhand provides a clear example of why Enfeeble stacks. It provides a modifier to a basic model statistic. There were arguments on whether it stacked. Then, an FAQ came down, and ruled that it stacked if separate models cast Hammerhand. Likewise, Enfeeble modifies a basic statistic. By using precedent from other rules, as instructed to do so by the BRB, Enfeeble stacks. Until it is over-ruled by an FAQ (possible in the future) or a a rule currently in the BRB (which doesn't exist, despite what you think the rule about different powers implies), it stacks RAW.

 BlueDagger wrote:
The denial is inherent to the powers. Is a model effected by "enfeeble" malediction? Yes - Read the rules to see what it's effect is.

-1T. Oh, you're already -1T because of another Enfeeble? -2T.
If you say it's still only -1, please cite a rule denying permission to resolve the second power.

Nothing in the rule book states that you make the logical jump that 2x malediction equal 2x the effect. The book tells you that different malediction stack, thus allowing you to add the effects from two difference maledictions that effect the same stat. Nothing in the book states that two of the same malediction are meant to be a cumulative effect.

Nothing aside from, I dunno, permission to cast and resolve the powers that is. That pesky little thing.

Later today when I have brb in from of me I'll find the permission/denial chain that supports my argument that two of the same maledictions do not stack. Until then I'll let what I have said stand, that an interpretation that invalidates a rule can not be the correct interpretation.

 Crimson wrote:

 jifel wrote:
You CAN use it if it is from a DIFFERENT psyker, thereby making it a different psychic power.

Why you keep saying this? It makes no sense whatsoever? By whom it was cast has absolutely no bearing on this.

Also, I have two Rhinos equipped with hunter killer missiles. Do these Rhinos have same or different vehicle upgrade?

I know, the whole argument is based on the premise that enfeeble is not the same power as enfeeble...


two different castings of the SAME power is still the same power, casting the same thing twice does not magically make the 2nd casting of the same spell some different spell. yes it is from a different caster, so what? its still the same power, and the restriction is on "different blessings/maledictions" not different CASTERS.

its another casting of the same power, its not a different "enfeeble" its a separate one, or I could just say that I picked this "enfeeble" from my sRB, and that "enfeeble" from my BRB and thusly one psyker can cast these two different powers twice himself.

the whole argument for stacking is that enfeeble is not the same power as enfeeble, because, you know, I have it on two guys.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nothing aside from, I dunno, permission to cast and resolve the powers that is. That pesky little thing.

Of course you have permission to resolve it, however, if it can't stack, then, like a psychic shooting attack that fails to wound, it's resolution would be to have no impact whatsoever. Just because it does nothing, does not mean it didn't resolve. So that doesn't counter the argument at all.

cryhavok wrote:
an interpretation that invalidates a rule can not be the correct interpretation.

What rule is invalidated?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cryhavok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Nothing aside from, I dunno, permission to cast and resolve the powers that is. That pesky little thing.

Of course you have permission to resolve it, however, if it can't stack, then, like a psychic shooting attack that fails to wound, it's resolution would be to have no impact whatsoever. Just because it does nothing, does not mean it didn't resolve. So that doesn't counter the argument at all.

A psychic attack that fails to wound has a rule that stops it from doing anything - it failed to wound.
Cite a rule that causes a malediction to do nothing, assuming the test passes and the DtW fails.

 easysauce wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 jifel wrote:
You CAN use it if it is from a DIFFERENT psyker, thereby making it a different psychic power.

Why you keep saying this? It makes no sense whatsoever? By whom it was cast has absolutely no bearing on this.

Also, I have two Rhinos equipped with hunter killer missiles. Do these Rhinos have same or different vehicle upgrade?

I know, the whole argument is based on the premise that enfeeble is not the same power as enfeeble...


two different castings of the SAME power is still the same power, casting the same thing twice does not magically make the 2nd casting of the same spell some different spell. yes it is from a different caster, so what? its still the same power, and the restriction is on "different blessings/maledictions" not different CASTERS.

its another casting of the same power, its not a different "enfeeble" its a separate one, or I could just say that I picked this "enfeeble" from my sRB, and that "enfeeble" from my BRB and thusly one psyker can cast these two different powers twice himself.

the whole argument for stacking is that enfeeble is not the same power as enfeeble, because, you know, I have it on two guys.

And if it is, as you say, the same power, what then? The same power would stack too, as Maledictions are allowed to be resolved, and there is no rule stating that the same Malediction can't be resolved twice on the same target.

rigeld2 wrote:

cryhavok wrote:

cryhavok wrote:
*snip*

Here is a question for those arguing for stacking enfeebles: where are you given permission for one enfeeble to be different from another?

They are from different psykers. I say they stack, and the rules say -1 from Strength and Toughness. It doesnt say base toughness, just toughness, so if I do it one after the other it is -1, then -1 again. The book says different Maledictions stack. Even if we disagree on "different", where does it say that the same Malediction doesn't stack?

Permissive rules set. You are given permission for different meledictions to stack. No where is it given permission for the same ones to stack, therefore, only different meledictions may stack.

Incorrect. We have permission to cast the power. We have permission to resolve the power. Find the denial.

Is it not the same as the rule that doesn't allow you to move through models? It's not explicitly stated "no" but the rules reference the fact.

The rule is that different maledictions are cumulative. This is not permission that the same ones stack nor is it a denial for it but since we go on permissive rules 2 enfeebles don't stack if you read maeledictions as the specific one since it's lower case and not Maledictions which usually GW use to refer to archetypes.


The wording isn't great, the rules are talking in general terms in that paragraph just like blessings but you have two choices. Read it as being a general restriction where different means different maledictions or as two different castings BUT I don't agree that it is different castings. That could have been worded clearer. Similarly does the power that requires a LD check to do anything in movement or shooting require a LD check for each time it's cast on a squad?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is it not the same as the rule that doesn't allow you to move through models? It's not explicitly stated "no" but the rules reference the fact.

The rule is that different maledictions are cumulative. This is not permission that the same ones stack nor is it a denial for it but since we go on permissive rules 2 enfeebles don't stack.

You mean this rule?

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Can models move through other friendly models? (p10)
A: No. Models that are an exception to this rule, such as
Jump Infantry or Jetbikes, will state this clearly in their rules.

Damn I keep forgetting they FAQ'd that.

For the people who claim that different powers stacking is not a reminder:

How do you determine if something is a reminder or a difference from the norm?