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 insaniak wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
People still pirate the hell out of music and its rare for an album to cost more than $14. People pirate ebooks already and they typically cost $10 or less. Reducing the price isn't going to reduce the piracy. People that are going to pirate them are going to do so regardless of price. .

Some people are going to pirate regardless of the price. Some people only pirate because they feel the price is too high.

It's a fairly straightword equation to assume that those who only pirate because of high prices would be a smaller group if the prices were lower.

Agreed. Some people will always pirate regardless but at least those who wanted ubiquitous use digital copies of the books have a legal and official outlet to get them instead of resorting to piracy. I'm still hoping to instead get a physical book via a swap shop trade despite my dislike of the hardcovers but I'd change my mind personally if they offered it at $20 USD via a sale. Does BL ever have sales on digital products?

I mean, the complaining here basically amounts to "We'll I don't want to pay that much".

Forget that they answered all the requests for a non-iOS digital version.

Forget that they are offering a basic and discounted version of the codex.

feth, at this point they'd be better off had they never released a digital copy for any OS.

 cincydooley wrote:
Some people are going to steal regardless. Some people are only going to steal things they can't or don't want to afford. How is that better?

Better than what? I don't understand what you're asking.

And I'm sorry, how can you make that assumption? Do you have anything to substantiate that claim?

I make that assumption the same way I assume that if I eat a cookie, then I will have eaten a cookie.

If someone has one reason for doing something, and you remove that reason... it's not too hard to extrapolate what might happen.

Also, going back to gakky black and white codices is going to make just as many people unhappy as happier.

I would be curious as to the stats on that, actually. Do the people who would be unhappy with a return to softcover, black and white codexes actually outnumber the people who are unhappy with the current codex price? Guess we'll never know.

The thing is, both of those groups could be satisfied with the release of cheaper codexes in the same style as the starter set rulebook alongside the spiffy, full-colour hardbacks.




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 cincydooley wrote:
I mean, the complaining here basically amounts to "We'll I don't want to pay that much".

Forget that they answered all the requests for a non-iOS digital version.

Forget that they are offering a basic and discounted version of the codex.

Nobody is forgetting that. It's down to personal preference as to whether or not the product being offered is worth the price.

If a company releases something that you have been asking for, but does so at a price that is higher than you would prefer to pay, you're not under any obligation to be happy about it just because they 'listened' to you. Offering a product that customers want, at a price the customer is happy to pay is how retail works.

feth, at this point they'd be better off had they never released a digital copy for any OS.

Well, yes, because 'no sales' is always a better option than 'some sales'...

That's a false assumption. You're assuming that if the price was lower people wouldn't pirate. Well, where is that bar? What is the price at which someone will no longer pirate the codex? $40? $30? $20? How much do you think the codecies should cost?

I obviously don't have any stats regarding people being unhappy with a black and white codex. I can tell you the 3 friends asked and myself prefer the hardcovers. They're more durable. I've yet to have one fall apart like the soft covers (and I have to flip thru my ogres one a lot). And for a collector, they look nicer on a shelf. Again, that's purely anecdotal, but its a start.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sure that's how retail "works" but no one is entitled or obligated to purchase or own a single thing.

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. But there are obviously enough people buying the books to justify that the market will bear the price.

I'm sure plenty of people would like to drive a BMW. Should BMW lower their prices so more people can buy them? No. Of course not.

Griping about prices is the consumer's right. People will buy or not buy and just a few people whinging on an internet board does not equate to the entire market (though you apparently think so by your reaction).

GW moving to other formats was inevitable since I hardly think they would ignore greater than 1/2 of the tablet market by sticking to iOS only. I know that here in the US, there is a love affair with all things Apple but this is not necessarily so for the rest of the world.

Finished the third Carnac book. Did a more thorough review of the series in the background section of the forum. I think that was the right place:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/536375.page#5784975

 cincydooley wrote:
That's a false assumption. You're assuming that if the price was lower people wouldn't pirate

No, I'm assuming that if the price was lower, fewer people who pirate because the price is too high would pirate.

. Well, where is that bar? What is the price at which someone will no longer pirate the codex? $40? $30? $20? How much do you think the codecies should cost?

What I thnk the codex should cost has no bearing on how much someone who pirates the codex because they think it is too expensive thinks it should cost. And yes, that ideal price is going to be different for different people. I'm really nt sure what point you are trying to make here.

If a codex is $40, and someone refuses to buy it becuase they think it should be $30, and then the price is dropped to $30, that person is going to be more likely to buy the codex than they were when the codex was $40.

I obviously don't have any stats regarding people being unhappy with a black and white codex. I can tell you the 3 friends asked and myself prefer the hardcovers. They're more durable. I've yet to have one fall apart like the soft covers (and I have to flip thru my ogres one a lot). And for a collector, they look nicer on a shelf. Again, that's purely anecdotal, but its a start.

Sure. But, again, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

But there are obviously enough people buying the books to justify that the market will bear the price.

I'm sure there are. I would love to see the sales figures on codexes since the switch to hardcover, though. I know for myself, that switch (and the corresponding price hike) has resulted in my going from being someone who buys every codex (and has done since 2nd edition) to only buying one of the 6th ed codexes so far. I might pick up the Space Wolves codex if and when they do it, but if I'm still largely playing at home I probably won't bother, and will just stick with my current codex instead. And I won't be buying any others so long as they stick with the over-priced hardcover.

And while that's anecdotal, I'm a long way from being the only person in that boat. I've spoken to quite a few people who have gone the same way - from buying every codex, to only buying the books they really need.

 cincydooley wrote:
Sure that's how retail "works" but no one is entitled or obligated to purchase or own a single thing.

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. But there are obviously enough people buying the books to justify that the market will bear the price.

I'm sure plenty of people would like to drive a BMW. Should BMW lower their prices so more people can buy them? No. Of course not.

If you were talking about adding exclusivity as a result of prestige associated with first-degree price discrimination of a product/service then I would agree, but it's reached the point where it's not becoming profitable because they're exceeding their customers' reservation price by such a degree that they're seeing reduced profitability due to lower volume not balancing the rising contribution margin (difference between sale price and variable cost of production) to exceed fixed costs by the desired percentage. On top of their third-degree price discrimination, they're seeing lots of reduced volume (regardless of what they might do to artificially boost demand by limiting their supply to other retailers) from overseas.

You're also confusing whether people want to buy it with whether people can buy it. GW could sell it's products for a pittance and they would still see people who could afford it unwilling to do so. There's also some confusion over whether the quality [added value] is equal or greater than the added markup...which is highly subjective but nonetheless becoming increasingly hard to justify.

It's like if BMW suddenly cut all of it's entry-level vehicles (something which GW no longer has [the only exception being the DV box, which is still friggin' expensive]): lower cash flow, greater possibility of reduced profitability, all that jazz.

BUT: back on topic

I would be interested to see more reviews about the quality of the product and the rate at which it is updated. There's very little use for a product which does get automatically updated if they return to their old bi-annual FAQ model.

So in the Apoc thread it has just been posted that next months WD mentions a Codex: Farsight in the digital release section.

So are the epub/mobi codex going to get faq updates or not ...or has the question not been answered?

 Spazz wrote:
So are the epub/mobi codex going to get faq updates or not ...or has the question not been answered?

Given the current version isn't up to date with even the current FAQ, the one released even before the codex, I wouldn't bet on it.

Mobi's bought through the Amazon store can auto-update, but Black Library uses its own storefront with manual downloads, so automatic updating would be impossible. Manual updates would certainly be possible, but I suspect we won't find out until the next Eldar FAQ comes out.

Edit: Or not. I guess that settles it. Disappointing.

Difficult to predict.... on the one hand some people might view "no so it matches the printed Codex" as an expected or sensible answer, others will say that as the iCodex auto-updates all e-Codices should be brought inline with the latest ruling.

I'd prefer e-Codices to all be "living", but there needs to be a consistent version control across all versions.

 Temujin wrote:
Mobi's bought through the Amazon store can auto-update, but Black Library uses its own storefront with manual downloads, so automatic updating would be impossible. Manual updates would certainly be possible, but I suspect we won't find out until the next Eldar FAQ comes out.

Edit: Or not. I guess that settles it. Disappointing.

I was surprised to find that you can also purchase the ePub codecies through the iBooks store as well for that same $32 pricepoint. This would also be able to accept an auto update if they chose to do so.

So at this point it looks like the only ones auto updating are the iBook versions.

As I explained before about ePub and Mobi, and how digital products are updated (by iTunes / Google / Amazon replacing the complete file with the newly updated file -- not simply by changing a few lines of text), and that there's no way for the books you get through BL to phone home and see if they need replaced... they will not be updated, ever. At least, not automatically -- and I wouldn't put money on GW ever updating the digital versions on their side, either.

As for the price of iBooks vs. Hardcover.. For both, you're paying for the authors' times, the art, and someone to typeset per platform.
With iBooks you're paying an additional developer cost for someone to program the functionality into the iBooks (but, if they were smart, they programmed the engine once and simply add new content to the engine) for server space and bandwidth (a miniscule cost, comparitively), their yearly dev license with Apple, and that's about it.
For hardbound books, you're paying a printing fee and materials cost PER BOOK, plus physical storage space (one physical book takes up the same space as one hundred thousand iBooks, if I'm gonna throw one out into the ballpark) and shipping costs from the printer to storage,.
The initial investment of iBooks (the additional developer) is greater than dead tree books, but once they're done being developed they probably cost less than a dime for GW to get to us.

So, yeah, I absolutely say iBooks should cost less, regardless of functionality, because GWs cost for iBooks is notably less (from the start of production to getting it into my hands) than paper books. And then eBooks should cost less than that because they don't have the added functionality.

Oh, and just so people can say I'm simply complaining about the cost of GW products... GW COSTS TOO MUCH! (But I still try to cram my dollars down their throats, so, am I really complaining?)

And for the "piracy will always happen, so why try to stop it," argument -- yeah, it's going to happen. If it's not leaked PDFs, it's scans, and before that it was photocopies made by someone who had a friend who worked at a print shop. I'll keep saying it -- the only way to discourage piracy is to make it more appealing to buy the product than it is to steal it.

As somebody with friends working in the publishing industry I can say this is not true

ebooks are not cheaper to develop/sell and then paper versions

the costs to the publisher are about the same (some books will cost the pulisher slightly more for the paper version, another for the ebook version)

You may imagine that printing/distributing costs a lot, that simply isn't true (the numbers he's given me are as low as 6% for a text only paperback to as high as 15% for a colour art book on fancy paper)

you can (and should) debate whether codices in general are value for money but please don't pretent that digital versions 'probably cost less than a dime for GW to get to us'

I don't have friends working in publishing, but I do have friends working in game development. It may be different, but digital distribution for games is "close to free" cheap.

I also have friends working in the printing industry, and I know printing doesn't cost a lot. It does cost more than bandwidth and server space, though.

We can argue about this all day -- I stand by my knowledge and feelings, you stand by yours, and somewhere in the middle we're both wrong.

Let's get back on topic... It looks like the Tau supplement will be the next major digital release, and unlike everything before it, it will come before the paper release. I'm skeptical on that, both because GW's been awful at adapting to digital, and because it seems interesting that we've heard about Space Marine and Tyranid supplements (for codices that doesn't exist yet), and are only learning about this two or three weeks before release.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
As somebody with friends working in the publishing industry I can say this is not true

ebooks are not cheaper to develop/sell and then paper versions

the costs to the publisher are about the same (some books will cost the pulisher slightly more for the paper version, another for the ebook version)

You may imagine that printing/distributing costs a lot, that simply isn't true (the numbers he's given me are as low as 6% for a text only paperback to as high as 15% for a colour art book on fancy paper)

you can (and should) debate whether codices in general are value for money but please don't pretent that digital versions 'probably cost less than a dime for GW to get to us'

6-15% additional margin is huge for any business I've worked with (telecom contracting) Remember that saved money is 100% profit, so if you're making 10% on a object and reduce production costs by 15%, you've increased your per unit profit margin by 250%. Considering GW's making money selling physical books at 60% of retail, they're really making money selling e-books at 66% of retail directly. Moving to a lower cost middleman or becoming a low cost middleman yourself allows you to be a lot more competitive with your price to consumers.

I'm not saying this in an anti-GW way at all. I'm not a fan of the FLGS, so I'd much rather not pay for his overhead (inefficiency) when I want to purchase books and figs. I'm very happy that GW is finally letting me do this without all the retailer pandering that normally seems to go on with many digital releases.

What's a good reader to use on Android for these? I tried the Eldar preview on Aldiko and the images wouldn't scale down properly, and on Moon+ the spacing between everything was far too much.

Those are the two I would ave recommended, so I'm interested to hear what others might suggest.

Try Nook, as I had better results with the reference tables on that.

I had okay results with Kindle, but better results with Google Play Books.

It's serviceable on the three platforms I've tested it on - phone, laptop, tablet. Would I prefer the iPad version? Absolutely. I'd even be happy to pay more for it. Despite that, I can't bring myself to pick up an iPad that will solely be used as a codex viewing device.

 Skinnereal wrote:
So far, the Nook app shows the part-pages better than the HTC or Google's Book app. When turned, the summary tables are spread over 3 pages, and sometimes the last few entries get lots off the bottom. The Nook app shows more of the table.
What I don't remember seeing from the hardback Codex was weapon profiles for power weapons. These are in the epub version.

Oh, and there is a 'free copy' of Munitorium: Shuriken Catapults at the end.

Mantano Reader is by far the best imho. I've looked long and hard and just bought the full version last night. I thought the free version was great, but the full version is just amazing. Check it out and the pro features. It's very customizable as well. Aldiko is also very nice.