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The actual sculpts were all done by the date Fenris had been asked for (from what I saw anyway)

so it looks very much like the roadblock is at the steel mould tooling/plastics production stage and seems to be a fairly late stage thing as up until recently as there was no real hint of problems

I'm sad to say that it's probably just that a KS production run (no matter how big the ks was) is never going to trump the regular business of whatever toy/games etc the factories in China normally do

if the KS run slips even slightly, if their regular customer needs something done sooner rather than later, or an extra 100,000 units of something for a bubble-gum machine then it's the KS production that will be bumped

and it will stay bumped until there is an empty slot, rsther than just slipping to next on the production list

McDonalds' Happy Meals Toys Orders rule with an Iron Fist!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


if the KS run slips even slightly, if their regular customer needs something done sooner rather than later, or an extra 100,000 units of something for a bubble-gum machine then it's the KS production that will be bumped

and it will stay bumped until there is an empty slot, rsther than just slipping to next on the production list

Great point, and one I should have made considering my wife's an editor and she runs into similar timing issues with the printers. Ultimately I think large scale production winds up being the largest hurdle and one that companies without experience don't properly consider. I agree that it would probably build good faith to provide some details regarding the delays, but I think most companies avoid doing this since that leads to people questioning their planning.

Out of curiosity, if the expected delivery date was a year, meaning that this would be on time, would it have impacted anyone's decision to pledge? I expected a year so it obviously wouldn't effect me, but I'm wondering if people dislike the actual timeframe, or just the lateness.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The actual sculpts were all done by the date Fenris had been asked for (from what I saw anyway)

so it looks very much like the roadblock is at the steel mould tooling/plastics production stage and seems to be a fairly late stage thing as up until recently as there was no real hint of problems

I'm sad to say that it's probably just that a KS production run (no matter how big the ks was) is never going to trump the regular business of whatever toy/games etc the factories in China normally do

if the KS run slips even slightly, if their regular customer needs something done sooner rather than later, or an extra 100,000 units of something for a bubble-gum machine then it's the KS production that will be bumped

and it will stay bumped until there is an empty slot, rsther than just slipping to next on the production list

Its one of the advantages to doing business in the US, you might pay more, but your manufacturers are contractually obligated to produce the goods when they say they are going to (unless thats not a provision of your contract), if a big fish shows up and they want to bump you in the production queue as a result, they have to compensate you or face damages.

Out of curiosity, if the expected delivery date was a year, meaning that this would be on time, would it have impacted anyone's decision to pledge? I expected a year so it obviously wouldn't effect me, but I'm wondering if people dislike the actual timeframe, or just the lateness.

Thats definitely a good question, and I think the answer is quite possibly 'yes'. I've certainly backed out of Kickstarters over delivery dates before, granted they were for much smaller less invovled projects that I didn't want... On the flip side, had Palladium or whoever been upfront with the Robotech kickstarter and told us where they were in development and that delivery wouldn't be until this summer, I would have still backed.

Shame to hear that this project is getting held up (a friend backed at a fairly high level, I believe), but the extra figures are a nice show of appreciation to the backers, along with hints of a surprise yet to come.

As a vocal critic of a few projects seeing massive delays, it would certainly be nice for more creators to err on the side of caution. There's at least one project that I probably wouldn't have backed to quite the same degree if they'd given a 1 year (or more) target instead of an 8 month one, but that reduced backing would've in turn made me less frustrated when they blew past that date (would happen in a month).

I've had very late projects that I only tossed $50 at, so it wasn't really anything of an issue. When I get talked into supporting for $300 or $700 or whatever, in no small part based on a slick campaign lauding at length how far along the project is and how confident everyone is, etc, etc, it's not quite as easy to eat a 6 or 8 or 12 month delay and just say "oh well".

I'm sure it's something a lot of people are running numbers on already; the effective costs of over-promising and delaying versus being realistic and thus drawing in lower funds, but in turn possibly raising the likelihood of delivering on time.

Aren't the minis being produce by Panda? The same guys behind the Incursion delay and Fireteam zero?

 Forar wrote:

I'm sure it's something a lot of people are running numbers on already; the effective costs of over-promising and delaying versus being realistic and thus drawing in lower funds, but in turn possibly raising the likelihood of delivering on time.

That's a consideration that's actually been on my mind. I might be wrong in this observation, since I haven't taken a formal poll, but it seems to me that people consider the delivery date when deciding whether to back so there's a pressure to underestimate the estimated delivery, and while egregious delays might annoy people, in the end, it's the quality of the product that matters. If the product is good, people ultimately look past the lateness, if its garbage being prompt doesn't matter.

This is really apparent in the different paths Robotech and Cthulhu Wars have taken. They raised a similar amount of money, ended within a month of each other, both were at a similar starting point of concepts, both promised to deliver Dec. 2013, and both are at similar stages of production. While there's been some annoyance at the delays here, the Robotech thread is full of people threatening to try and get a refund and I think the root of this has been displeasure in a number of the prototypes, questions regarding the rules, and frustration with the level of communication. This contrasts with Cthulhu Wars whose initial models have been excellent and the gameplay has gotten nothing but positive reviews.

 Forar wrote:
I've had very late projects that I only tossed $50 at, so it wasn't really anything of an issue. When I get talked into supporting for $300 or $700 or whatever, in no small part based on a slick campaign lauding at length how far along the project is and how confident everyone is, etc, etc, it's not quite as easy to eat a 6 or 8 or 12 month delay and just say "oh well".

Being an RPG min/max'er (: I usually look at the lowest "sweet spot" in a KS campaign, evaluate it, and, if I think it's worth what I will get, pledge only at that level. Alien Assimilation Host ($10) is over a year (?) behind, Itar's Workshop ($60) has been a long wait, but I wouldn't pledge as much money as companies who had more industry experience (eg. Dwarven Forge at $120), so don't mind the delays. GEG is a new company, so I set it at the "one year" mark, even though its lowest "sweet spot" was $200 (love them man-dollies!). While I'm certainly not getting as much "stuff" at a "once in a lifetime" discount as the $500+ backers, I also have a hypothetical $300 I can spend on other KS "sweet spots", such as Reaper's KS ($200+) and RAFM's Cthulhu miniatures ($100+). Delays happen all the time even at retail, and it would be a surprise if a first-time KS company didn't have them (no surprises yet, I should say!).

After some bad experiences with Japanime Games (and reading of the reputation of CMON and Queens Games), I'm inured to the slick campaign, as it is no indicator of post-funding support. Indeed, a competent but not outstanding campaign can deliver in good time. So with KS nowadays, show me what I get for my money, let me evaluate your company, and I'll go from there.

Also doesn't help that I haven't started painting my Zombicide or Myth miniatures yet.

[quote=Unix 532098 6741571 08b94fd98ee63a60c5d191649dcfe29a.jpg
Out of curiosity, if the expected delivery date was a year, meaning that this would be on time, would it have impacted anyone's decision to pledge? I expected a year so it obviously wouldn't effect me, but I'm wondering if people dislike the actual timeframe, or just the lateness.

ced1106 wrote:
Delays happen all the time even at retail, and it would be a surprise if a first-time KS company didn't have them (no surprises yet, I should say!).

Just to be absolutely clear, while a friend is a CW backer, I am not. I was more obliquely referencing some other campaigns, and trends we're seeing with miniatures Kickstarters as a whole.

I haven't been watching CW particularly closely, but from the glances I have taken, their communication seems reasonable, and sugar coating another half year of delays with 9 bonus models for most of the more heavily invested backers (along with another unknown surprise) seems like awfully good customer service.

Contrasted against Wyrd or Palladium, this project seems to be doing pretty well.

Wyrd: 7 months late, terrible communications, literally no end in sight.

Palladium: 4 months late, terrible communications, 8 month projected timeline is now 15 months for half delivery, 20+ for full delivery.

Neither has shown remotely any interest in 'sweetening the deal' for the backers in this regard, and even getting information can be like pulling teeth.

New KS update where Sandy addresses the delays

Hey all, we have not been posting regularly for a few months. This is not because we’ve lost interest, but because of late, the project has been mostly out of our control, and in the hands of the manufacturing plant. However, now we are back in the saddle, with lots of stuff to talk about, and we plan to have an update every single week from now till Cthulhu Wars ships.

You have no doubt seen update 126 announcing the game will be available in September. Here is the backstory. Not long ago, we were told by the factory that they couldn’t ship the game until October. Up to that moment, we had been told it would be significantly earlier. So this was a pretty big shock. We did not take it sitting down. First, we offered more money to get it out sooner (from our pocket – not the Kickstarter). But the delays were real, and couldn’t be fixed, at least not by that means. I then flew my business manager out to China, and we began shopping around the game to other manufacturers, trying to find someone who could bring it out earlier, with comparable quality. What I am trying to say is that the delay frustrated and embarrassed us, and we fought like fiends to improve the situation. While we aspire to be as transparent as possible to our backers, we wanted to know exactly where we stood before posting another update.

Let me make this clear – I was (and am) willing to mortgage my house to get this game out as early as possible. You guys and gals deserve it.

We did manage to make some improvement. We are now told it is shipping in early August, and should be arriving four-to-six weeks later, assuming Cthulhu doesn’t swallow down the container ship. And, as we announced in the last update , I decided to unlock ALL the collectibles for all backers at Cultist level and beyond. It turns out we are a pack of completists when it comes to Cthulhu, so I suspect this is good news. Incidentally, originally we had been planning to produce the collectibles in their own unique color, but now they will be in their faction color. They will still be easy to distinguish, though, because they will have special collectible bases.

We will have a tracking number for every backer a few days before shipping (early August).

GenCon News

We will be at GenCon this August and are currently planning to airlift some copies of the core game for the show. In our last update, we posted that we have a surprise in store. Here it is – in case we are able to get more than just a couple demo copies, we are working on a plan by which backers who attend GenCon would be able to pick up their core games there. The details of this plan are still dependent on how many copies we can get, how much air freight costs, etc.

If we can pull this off, we will have some kind of registration process whereby we know who plans to pick up their game at GenCon. In any case, the rest of us should see the game at our homes a week or two post-GenCon. More on this as we get more information.

Sandy Petersen

Gencon!

Fenris Games have just released the first 12 Cthulhu Wars sculpts in metal/resin

with thanks to Sandy for allowing their sale despite the KS being delayed (I guess otherwise Fenris could have been badly impacted depending on when they were told of the KS delay)

the plan is to carry on releasing slowly them to build interest in the game release (so a win-win for both sides)



http://www.fenrisgames.com/shop.html#!/~/category/id=9038550&inview=product36079694&offset=0&sort=nameAsc

(so if anybody just can't wait to get painting and has plenty of cash to splash we can indulge)

Don't see anything bad in it.

I'm indifferent about it.

Did they ever decide on what they'll do with the game boxes? I remember a whole lot of grief about them promising retail packaging and then changing their minds to brown cardboard, and some talk about a "kickstarter box" as a compromise between the two.

Yeah, I'm curious abut the boxes as well, it seems the boxgate controversy died down pretty quick... Personally, I want retail packaging (if not retail, then at least 'glossy') I didnt shell out nearly $600 for brown cardboard boxes.

I'm in the same boat on that one, mate.

Was it the main game box that was the issue, or the expansions, or the GOO bonuses, or everything?

I want at leas the main box looking nice and snazzy. If Sandy wants to do like CMON and Soda Pop are doing by including special boxes for all the extra goodies, I think that would be a nice idea...

From what I recall, the 101 different expansion boxes were promised to come in retail packaging sometime during the KS. Not sure if it was in the updates or comments or main page, but it was a real thing that happened.

Flash forward several months, to, I think, the end of last year. Fulfilment date is now a thing of the past, or at least an unfunny joke, and it comes out that the expansions are going to be shipped to us in plain cardboard boxes. Predictably enough, a shitstorm ensues.

Backers are predictably upset, while the white knights and (possibly) GEG talk about how the expansions may never make it to retail, depending on how the base game sales go, and they may be a year later, and the box art has to be developed, and so forth - basically a pile of gakky excuses now that reality has hit, while they were happy to promise the Earth during the campaign to keep the cash rolling in. You know, standard Kickstarter stuff.

Some backers in an attempt to suggest a compromise, suggested something like a nicely-made glossy black box with the KS logo on, as an "exclusive kickstarter backer box" where GEG could put all of the expansion stuff that people paid for - that way, we'd have somewhere to store out stuff that looked halfway nice on the shelf instead of in cheap shipping packaging/nothing, and GEG wouldn't have to make 47 different boxes. While I'd prefer retail packaging for the boxed expansions/etc (not worried about retail packs for the models myself as long as they're sent safely) a single nice box would suffice. Certainly over brown cardboard.

Here's the latest:

"Most everything will be in a box identical to the retail box. Probable exceptions: the Indie GOOs, Dreamlands monsters, and high priest. (They will still be in a nice game-quality box - it just won't be identical to the retail ones, which will probably have plastic windows to let people see the figures before buying.

Also, some items don't have a retail box, so they will be shipped in stand-in boxes. This includes the collectibles, asenath and HPL figures, dice, and plastic gates. And the 6-8 player map."

"Our current plan is to sell the 6-8 player map (which also comes with two new ritual tracks and more die-cut gates) only through our website. Our belief is that it would not be a big seller in the stores. If we are wrong, and the distributors start begging for it, we will put together a box and make it more widely available."

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1033087/shipment-and-packaging-annoucement/page/9

Thanks for tracking that down! And mighty good of them to share that with us in an official Kickstarter update, too!

Yeah, welcome to KS.

fwiw, One day ago in the comments: "The boxes are going to be gamestore quality boxes. All expansions will come in appropriate packaging and boxes. Since the expansions are mostly going to be re-printed after the kickstarter shipment, in effect this means the store shelve version (some months down the line) will be a reprint, and obviously we may decide to change packaging or artwork on any reprinted item.
In a few cases, notably the figure expansions, this is pretty likely, because we may decide to put them in stores with cellophane windows in the boxes, so buyers can see the figs, but it is unlikely we will have the cellophane-window boxes in time for kickstarter backers. Also if we decide to group expansions together in a different fashion than it is being offered to kickstarter backers, the box will need to change (for instance, if we decide to group Indie Great Old Ones together). Finally, some of the kickstarter rewards are never going to be available in stores and so won't have a "store shelf" box version."

EDIT: Looks like this was a direct reply to A in the CW comments. Where's the balete button?

Holy gak. Not only did I not expect an actual answer, the answer seems all kinds of reasonable and even positive.

 Azazelx wrote:
Holy gak. Not only did I not expect an actual answer, the answer seems all kinds of reasonable and even positive.

I feel like Sandy and crew have been very forthcoming with info and updates on this Kickstarter- moreso than most of the board game Kickstarters I've dealt with. Sure, the delays have been frustrating, but also understandable considering the size of the project.

I think there's been a general pushback against Kickstarters lately...because so many companies are treating it as a preorder system rather than what it was originally intended for(a way for individuals to fund projects they otherwise wouldn't have been able to fund), there's a lot of general frustration when delays or changes happen in the Kickstarter.

For anyone that's had frustrations with how Cthulhu Wars has been run...just be thankful you didn't get suckered into backing Guardian Chronicles, like I did. It's turning into an expensive life lesson on why I won't be backing many more original games.

I feel your Guardians Chronicles pain....

Good to hear that we'll have some sort of boxes to put all of our stuff in.

Why is Sandys "last hurrah" now being followed with a new game? I thought this was originally described as being his last project before retiring?

Joyboozer wrote:
Why is Sandys "last hurrah" now being followed with a new game? I thought this was originally described as being his last project before retiring?

Perhaps this project has rekindled the romance so to speak.

 DrunkenBoxer wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Holy gak. Not only did I not expect an actual answer, the answer seems all kinds of reasonable and even positive.

I feel like Sandy and crew have been very forthcoming with info and updates on this Kickstarter- moreso than most of the board game Kickstarters I've dealt with. Sure, the delays have been frustrating, but also understandable considering the size of the project.
I think there's been a general pushback against Kickstarters lately...because so many companies are treating it as a preorder system rather than what it was originally intended for(a way for individuals to fund projects they otherwise wouldn't have been able to fund), there's a lot of general frustration when delays or changes happen in the Kickstarter.
For anyone that's had frustrations with how Cthulhu Wars has been run...just be thankful you didn't get suckered into backing Guardian Chronicles, like I did. It's turning into an expensive life lesson on why I won't be backing many more original games.

No need. I backed both Robotech Tactics and Raging Heroes. Not to mention Sedition Wars and Myth. And incursion for that matter.

I don't think the CW communication has been very good though. Wanting to shift comms to their own webpage, needing to chase up info such as the packaging stuff, half of their updates seeming like they're pimping other KS or products, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
Why is Sandys "last hurrah" now being followed with a new game? I thought this was originally described as being his last project before retiring?

Doesn't worry me in the slightest, as long as CW ships before he starts asking for money again.

Joyboozer wrote:
Why is Sandys "last hurrah" now being followed with a new game? I thought this was originally described as being his last project before retiring?

It was his 'last hurrah' in that if Cthulhu Wars failed to fund he'd have given up on physical games for good and accepted the job offer to go and write backgrounds iPhone apps (or something similar), rather than retire

Rather interesting new update here

Update #132 May 17 2014

Late-breaking Shipping News!


As most of you are aware, our plan for several months has been to ship ALL the stuff at the same time to our backers. We have now learned that if we ship the core game first, as soon as it is ready, you folks can get it as soon as it is finished. This is significantly earlier than if we wait and ship everything together in one giant package. (In retrospect, this should have been obvious, but we beg your indulgence for our inexperience.)

Of course, it would be cool to get everything together at the exact same moment, but it is also cool to get your copy of the core game, and begin playing it, several weeks earlier.

We will still do the expansions as quickly as we can – but remember we are committed to producing numerous expansions, plus the collectibles. We still plan to ship all the expansions and stretch goals together in one single giant package.

Some important points:

1) Shipping the core game separately does not delay the manufacture or shipping of the expansions.

2) Shipping the core game separately is not being done to save money. In fact, it doesn’t. But after all, the money is really yours, and it gets the game into your hands and tendrils earlier.

3) Shipping the core game separately does allow us to place copies in stores sooner, but I hope we are not begrudged this. You still get your games before any store! And shall own Cthullhu Wars way before all the cultists grab them up for their altars.

4) the expansions are still being shipped all at once to backers as soon as we complete them.

Also, here is an image of one of the Independent Great Old One loyalty cards. The odd slot at the foot of the card is his spellbook requirement – when you accomplish this task, place his unique spellbook there.



Hey, it's Father Dagon!

Incidentally, Dagon’s unique spellbook (not pictured) reads: “The Innsmouth Look (ongoing) during the Doom phase, remove one of your Acolyte Cultists from the map and out of the game permanently. Gain 6 Power. This is not optional. If you have no Acolyte Cultists, skip this step."



so it sounds like we're online for getting the base game sooner rather than later

(although hopefully it does not mean that the factory is having reservations about getting all the expansions done in time for the new 'delayed' date)