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So, let's see, you managed to get one single example (Lash), where the power was slightly undercosted compared to the other options in that codex, and so was taken disproportionately. Hardly indicative of a flaw in the underlying concept, unless you want to also argue that Helldrakes invalidate the concept of using points to balance the game entirely. Every other example you cited was a case where they went away from the base points-for-power concept - more of an argument to keep that system than to discount it, I'd say.


I was just listing strong psyker powers that have been prevalent through the current editions.

To be fairly honest I hope they keep the 6th, and advance it on to more like 2nd/1st edition warhammer psyker rules.

I want to see the Weirdboy able to charge up a huge beam of power that could radiate out forth from him and knock down an entire army, and kill half his forces again because the dice rolled against him. The concept of actual deadly warp perils but at the same time very powerful psykers..But not enough that they become an Auto-Include like fantasy.
   
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NeoGliwice III

 Jackal wrote:
So people are now complaining that they build an army around specific powers, and if they dont get them, they are screwed?

Theres a moral to this story, stop building an entire army and plans around a few models.

Seriously, this is turning into hero-hammer all over again, just for 40k.
I rather rely on a different plan and army building idea than have everything revolve around a few models.

So, how do people cope when a few precision shots remove a farseer or the likes that is boosting the unit?
Invis on a bike lord is nice, but once he dies, whats the plan?
Because said unit is now pretty much useless without him.

People need to rely on units and support units more, instead of characters.

This is simply not true.

1) Eldar in 5th edition. Picked powers. Most desirable powers: Fortune, Doom, Guide. All focusing on: units, support, supplementing each other.
2) Tyranids in 6th edition. Random powers. Most desirable powers: Iron Arm and the like. Creating single model unstoppable death machines. Cast Iron arm and all the buffs, point single model at the enemy.
Which one is hero-hammer and which is army focused?

Draigo, Ghazzy, Lysander vs. doom/fortune farseer, Null Zone chaplain, Prescience chaplain.
Which one is hero-hammer and which is support?

And yes, building armies around single models is exclusive to psykers picking their powers. Random powers completely voided that concept. Keep telling yourself that, maybe someday it will be true.

"People need to rely on units and support units more". Great. For supporting my army I will pick farseer. I wanted fortune but got power that increases my number of attacks. As seen on given example, randomization helps with "support units more".

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When people say "building an entire army around one unit's psychic power is bad", do they also think that when non-psyker armies build around one specific weapon/unit is also bad? I don't have to go through 90 tables of randomness when I build my DE/crons, because both armies work on the point system, so why couldn't psyker armies be doing the same?

 
   
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Baronyu wrote:
When people say "building an entire army around one unit's psychic power is bad", do they also think that when non-psyker armies build around one specific weapon/unit is also bad? I don't have to go through 90 tables of randomness when I build my DE/crons, because both armies work on the point system, so why couldn't psyker armies be doing the same?


Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...

Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...

Same problem with spells like Invisibility which are good on horde armies like Daemons, but would if kept cheap to make them worthwhile would then be OP on high armour save armies like say a Termiewing.
Meanwhile, the Witchfire powers would need to be rather costly for those with high BS, but then become too expensive on lower BS psykers.

See the problem? You can't fairly cost powers when you have vastly different types of models with access to the same psychic lores.

All that needs doing to properly balance the system is to bring a proper 'Psychic Phase' with casting/dispelling pools and have things work ala Fantasy Magic Phase.
Right now buffs in 40k are heinously strong because you simply can't stop them unless you have access to a Space Wolves Rune Priest. Witchfires on the other hand are rather weaksauce, especially against armies with tones of psychic defenses like GK's or Daemons or Eldar.

 
   
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I dont mind that the general farseers, sorcerers, and non-named characters have to randomly generate. I mind it when Eldrad Ahriman, or the swarmlord are often forgetting some of their most useful powers. It also means that all the rolls are always on one table until you get the powers you want.

For named/expensive HQs, they should have allowed you to roll 2d6 for each warp charge and pick the one you want. None of this eldrad forgetting fortune or doom crap. However, if you wanted to roll on multiple tables you still wouldnt be guaranteed your power of choice. Nice balance between the two. When you are spending 200+ points on an HQ, a bit of reliability shouldnt be too much to ask.

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 Redbeard wrote:



Siren (3.5 edition)


Well, you had to roll to get siren. It's more like a 6th ed power than any of the others you mention because there was no guarantee you got it, and people who built armies around it ended up losing games when they didn't get it.



Actually you could pick Siren. It did cost 60pts though. You had to buy 6 rolls on the Slaanesh minor power table and duplicates were re-rolled. As long as no rolls of a 1 were made, then you were pretty much guaranteed to get Siren.

FWIW, I agree with you. the 6th ed. way for dealing with psychic powers is nothing short of terrible.


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I also dislike the random power table.

Personally, I think it was an ambitious mis-step. I appreciate Games Workshop's attempt to take a mechanic and make it a shared mechanic, no longer specific to a single codex. I think it does a real disservice, however, to the less forgiving armies, or armies where the psykers don't have anything else going for them. A Great Unclean One can still tear a dreadnought open like tissue paper, but a single farseer is kind of out of luck if he gets a poopy power.

I realize that having a table with a broken power on it isn't going to work if you can choose, because everyone will pick the broken power, but that's not an argument FOR randomness, it's an argument AGAINST certain broken powers existing in the first place. We've made it through five previous editions without psykers being the be-all-end-all, and I think a little less randomness there might help. Just my personal opinion, of course.

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Experiment 626 wrote:
Baronyu wrote:
When people say "building an entire army around one unit's psychic power is bad", do they also think that when non-psyker armies build around one specific weapon/unit is also bad? I don't have to go through 90 tables of randomness when I build my DE/crons, because both armies work on the point system, so why couldn't psyker armies be doing the same?


Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...

Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...

Same problem with spells like Invisibility which are good on horde armies like Daemons, but would if kept cheap to make them worthwhile would then be OP on high armour save armies like say a Termiewing.
Meanwhile, the Witchfire powers would need to be rather costly for those with high BS, but then become too expensive on lower BS psykers.

See the problem? You can't fairly cost powers when you have vastly different types of models with access to the same psychic lores.

All that needs doing to properly balance the system is to bring a proper 'Psychic Phase' with casting/dispelling pools and have things work ala Fantasy Magic Phase.
Right now buffs in 40k are heinously strong because you simply can't stop them unless you have access to a Space Wolves Rune Priest. Witchfires on the other hand are rather weaksauce, especially against armies with tones of psychic defenses like GK's or Daemons or Eldar.

It's not impossible to balance the tables with points costs, you'd just have to give each unit in their codex entry a points cost for each power they can take. It would be clunky and awkward, but doable.

I think the tables were a mistake in the first place. Armies were a lot more unique when everyone had different powers, instead of every psyker in the galaxy knowing how to do the exact same things. It makes the game blander, in addition to obviously making it less strategic.

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Experiment 626 wrote:

Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...

Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...
.

If thats the case then it's simple, don't have a generalized price for a power.
The new system is pretty stupid. IMO there is no reason that SM, CSM, Tyranids or Eldar share any powers at all with each other. General powers are just so bland and doesn't make any sense. I would rather have purchasable powers and all race specific. Sure some could be a little similar, that would unavoidable for balance reasons.

Thank god I can choose what powers my crypteks and C'tan have..

 
   
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I think that psykers should be able to choose race specific powers, but not generic rulebook powers. I actually deny the existence of generic rulebook powers, and think that they are one of the stupidest implements in 40k. Ever.

   
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wilsjur wrote:
I think that psykers should be able to choose race specific powers, but not generic rulebook powers. I actually deny the existence of generic rulebook powers, and think that they are one of the stupidest implements in 40k. Ever.

This might actually be a good idea, if they redesigned most psyker powers. For Eldar and some it might work, but other books have really bad powers, with perhaps one gem. The rulebook as it stands now is one of the only things that might convince armies to pick a psyker HQ.

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 Eldarain wrote:
Coming from Fantasy first I have no issue with the randomization.

Having said that a lack of a proper psychic phase is disappointing. I'd much prefer that over the freely buff yourself, witchfires are garbage system they have now.


Yeah, I know that feel. Do you find you get even a little annoyed when the 40k players whine about something being a teensy bit random?

Because I do

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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
wilsjur wrote:
I think that psykers should be able to choose race specific powers, but not generic rulebook powers. I actually deny the existence of generic rulebook powers, and think that they are one of the stupidest implements in 40k. Ever.

This might actually be a good idea, if they redesigned most psyker powers. For Eldar and some it might work, but other books have really bad powers, with perhaps one gem. The rulebook as it stands now is one of the only things that might convince armies to pick a psyker HQ.


I plan on playing this way with my eldar (my gaming group is very, very lenient with rules)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/08 18:18:17


   
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 Peregrine wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
I think randomization, allows them to put some much more powerful Psyker abilties in, than we have seen in the past.


You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.


..but Peregrine, it wouldn't be that CINEMATIC anymore with balanced powers!

   
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Experiment 626 wrote:
Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...

Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.


You mean like how they have different costs for upgrades like Stim Injectors based on whether it's on a Riptide or a Crisis Suit? Wow, that was so hard to figure out.



   
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Alexandria

Experiment 626 wrote:
Baronyu wrote:
When people say "building an entire army around one unit's psychic power is bad", do they also think that when non-psyker armies build around one specific weapon/unit is also bad? I don't have to go through 90 tables of randomness when I build my DE/crons, because both armies work on the point system, so why couldn't psyker armies be doing the same?


Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...

Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...


Why does the power have to cost the same for all units ... obviously a huge MC should pay more for iron arm compared to a librarian etc.

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NeoGliwice III

As noted by numerous posters here different costs for different units would achieve much better balance while giving player choice.
Not giving the same power to such a different units (BRB powers) also would.
Current solution is the exact system that creates such disproportions. Right now all the units have the same cost / chance of getting that power. It's a binary system. Give or don't give access to the discipline. There is no possibility of scaling things.

People really need to understand that psychic powers are no different than weapons, skills, wargear or any other crap that units can get. And that random is not balanced!
Mr Mugguffins wrote:
Yeah, I know that feel. Do you find you get even a little annoyed when the 40k players whine about something being a teensy bit random?
"Teensy bit" random? I guess vendetta is "teensy bit" better than rippers.

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"Teensy bit" random? I guess vendetta is "teensy bit" better than rippers.


Gotta love them strawman arguements.
   
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Mr Mugguffins wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Coming from Fantasy first I have no issue with the randomization.

Having said that a lack of a proper psychic phase is disappointing. I'd much prefer that over the freely buff yourself, witchfires are garbage system they have now.


Yeah, I know that feel. Do you find you get even a little annoyed when the 40k players whine about something being a teensy bit random?

Because I do


Add me to that list too please!

All we really need is a fully fleshed out Psychic Phase and perhaps another 2 or 3 BRB Lores.
The thing I hated the most in all honesty about 40k psychic powers was that you only ever saw powers a/b/c used because they were no-brainer options. Random powers makes psykers into proper support units for most armies, while the 3 main psychic races, (Eldar, Tyranids & Daemons), get the options the include more than 1-2 psykers, meaning much better odds of rolling up at least 1 copy of the power you're after.

 
   
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Experiment 626 wrote:
Random powers makes psykers into proper support units for most armies, while the 3 main psychic races,


Yeah, and it's complete coincidence that the most popular support psykers are the ones with access to divination, where you can completely ignore the drawbacks of random power choice because the primaris power is the best one.

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 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.


Or they could just assign prices to each individual power based on its potency.

This isn't exactly hard.


This is the ticket, right here. I wouldn't have any problem with a group pricing out the abilities for it's games and going with that. There are people enough that play this game with the wit to make reasonable rules for how much powers cost.
   
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Randomness is a pretty dumb idea especially from a NARRATIVE standpoint that GW loves so much. This is also true about warlord powers.

How does the general of your army not even know what he's good at except at the very start of a battle? Or why would they bring support units like psykers if they don't even know what powers they have learned?

Unfortunately randomness is a simple way to balance things out without actually trying very hard. Why balance anything when it's random!

They used to do this, but GW leadership and design philosophy is different now. Everything must be random.

Lets take a demon army that is playing the mission where objectives are worth random amount of points.

The demon army has to roll for the following during a game

warlord trait
psychic powers
random gifts
randomize the objective point values of objectives
During the game roll randomly for mysterious objectives
Warp storm chart
Roll random # of shots or strength on powers
Roll randomly for Deny the Witch
Random assault range
If Demons lose combat you gotta roll randomly to see how many extra guys you lose (where as armies like SM just lose nothing or fearless guys lose nothing),
At end of game roll random game length

Yes a lot of these apply to all armies, but Demons are a good example as they have even more random rolls. The point here is that why are psychic powers treated differently? Most are simply buffs or shooting attacks that other units can WITHOUT having them be psychic (IE require a random roll, a LD test, a to hit roll and a deny the witch roll). You don't roll randomly to see what gun your unit is carrying nor do you roll random shooting distances.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/09 02:26:30


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 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.


Or they could just assign prices to each individual power based on its potency.

This isn't exactly hard.


Actually it is.

How would you price, say, the aforementioned Invisibility?

A 4+ cover save isn't too valuable to, say, Space Marines, who get a natural 3+ save anyway. Whatever price is given for Space Marines would be an absolute STEAL for Tyranids, who can also take Telepathy, but have natural saves around 5+ and 6+ mostly, and it can stack with a Venomthrope to become a 2+ cover save. If you priced it to be sensible for Tyranids, it wouldn't be taken at all by Space Marine players.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/09 02:37:50


 
   
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 -Loki- wrote:
A 4+ cover save isn't too valuable to, say, Space Marines, who get a natural 3+ save anyway. Whatever price is given for Space Marines would be an absolute STEAL for Tyranids, who can also take Telepathy, but have natural saves around 5+ and 6+ mostly, and it can stack with a Venomthrope to become a 2+ cover save. If you priced it to be sensible for Tyranids, it wouldn't be taken at all by Space Marine players.


That's why you give up on the idea of a universal set of psychic powers and give each psychic unit a list of powers with their own point costs. Then C:SM librarian might pay 10 points for the cover save power while a Tyranid whatever pays 50 points. You know, like how they did it in 5th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 02:42:37


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 -Loki- wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
You realize this is a bad thing, right? Having balanced powers that are all good choices is much better than a 1/6 chance to randomly get something overpowered.


Or they could just assign prices to each individual power based on its potency.

This isn't exactly hard.


Actually it is.

How would you price, say, the aforementioned Invisibility?

A 4+ cover save isn't too valuable to, say, Space Marines, who get a natural 3+ save anyway. Whatever price is given for Space Marines would be an absolute STEAL for Tyranids, who can also take Telepathy, but have natural saves around 5+ and 6+ mostly, and it can stack with a Venomthrope to become a 2+ cover save. If you priced it to be sensible for Tyranids, it wouldn't be taken at all by Space Marine players.


You'd just price it differently for the different armies. I believe this is done quite a bit with weapons and wargear, and some experimentation on how to scale the price on a clubs part should bring about a playable result. Just run some Mathhammer table trials and you could arrive at some costs.

Ninja'd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 02:43:18


 
   
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Think of it this way. Would you guys want to go back to Eldar having fortune at the cost of one Warp charge and Eldrad being able to cast it twice a turn? Would you want Tyranids putting iron arm on everything? Would you want the Seer Council having both Fortune AND invisibility?

Randomization is a good way to make it fair and just because we don't get to pick the most blatantly overpowered powers, doesn't mean the sky if falling. It means that we have to use what we rolled and try to win with it...imagine that we have to use strategy to win .

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GTKA666 wrote:
Randomization is a good way to make it fair and just because we don't get to pick the most blatantly overpowered powers, doesn't mean the sky if falling.


Or you could just not have blatantly overpowered powers at all, instead of a 1/6 chance to get something blatantly overpowered.

It means that we have to use what we rolled and try to win with it...imagine that we have to use strategy to win .


Strategy is picking the appropriate powers, just like writing a good list. Random powers is no better than having to play with a random list.

Also, as I said before, it's no coincidence that divination, where the primaris power is the best (or at least always powerful), is the most popular choice for psykers.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Pittsburgh, PA

GTKA666 wrote:
Think of it this way. Would you guys want to go back to Eldar having fortune at the cost of one Warp charge and Eldrad being able to cast it twice a turn? Would you want Tyranids putting iron arm on everything? Would you want the Seer Council having both Fortune AND invisibility?

Randomization is a good way to make it fair and just because we don't get to pick the most blatantly overpowered powers, doesn't mean the sky if falling. It means that we have to use what we rolled and try to win with it...imagine that we have to use strategy to win .

First of all, that isn't strategy, it's tactics. Strategy is your overall goal going into a game, tactics are what you do to try to achieve your strategy. So random powers actually almost completely remove the strategy aspect, and make you rely more on tactics. Hooray for semantics!

And secondly, you know what else would make it fair? Appropriate points costs. You know, like the balancing mechanism that the entire game is built on? Seems a bit more fair to me.

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Alexandria

GTKA666 wrote:
Think of it this way. Would you guys want to go back to Eldar having fortune at the cost of one Warp charge and Eldrad being able to cast it twice a turn? Would you want Tyranids putting iron arm on everything? Would you want the Seer Council having both Fortune AND invisibility?

Randomization is a good way to make it fair and just because we don't get to pick the most blatantly overpowered powers, doesn't mean the sky if falling. It means that we have to use what we rolled and try to win with it...imagine that we have to use strategy to win .


Right noone sayintg let anyone else pick their powers, but it could have been a really fluffy way to alter how eldar function in 40k to let them and them alone choose their powers only from their codex list not form BRB and have their powers properly costed and balanced around that fact, instead we get super unfluffy bs.

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