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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

"created" characters? that's what the unique designation is for. being able to cherry-pick powers would be too powerful and we all know that if they had to be bought as upgrades there would be a great gnashing of teeth and wailing that Iron Arm was a 50 power or whatever. Random powers is fine.

Is it cherry picking to pay the points for heavy weapons you want on your vehicles or in your squads and go into a game knowing what they are able to do and be able to create a strategy?

Coming from the 4th edition Eldar Codex to the new 6th edition version, I find myself very disappointed in general with the random nature of psychic powers. I don't randomly roll my weaponry. I don't randomly roll what squad is in what vehicle, or which units I put in reserve. Why the hell would I randomly determine one of the most game-breaking parts of my list? It's just ridiculous. Do I gamble on getting Fortune? If I fail and get some junk, then the squad that needed it is probably toast. If I get it, I'm crazy powerful. Why not just make powers the same as everything else, and make the powerful ones prohibitively expensive? It works for every other part of the game, and I don't understand why psychic powers would ever be the exception.

Ugh do some of you listen to yourselves?

 amanita wrote:


Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.

WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.

If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.

If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.

So 40k is kind of like a tabletop Super Smash Brothers. i.e. It is obviously not supposed to be a competitive fighting game, easily 75% of the options/decisions are not really balanced with each other, and the entire setting is so over the top and ridiculous that it's supposed to be impossible to take seriously...but there's still that group of people out there who say "screw it! I'm playing this game competitively."

That said, the merits of random psychic power tables are still up for debate. It all depends on what you want to play the game for I guess.

When I started this thread I tried to convey specifically that it was not even particularly the balance of the powers that irritated me the most, it was the inability to plan and have fun the way in which I like to with my army. Honestly randomizing powers just makes the unit stupid to me and I would prefer to know that I was getting a terrible power every time rather than have to roll on a chart.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.

If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.

So 40k is kind of like a tabletop Super Smash Brothers. i.e. It is obviously not supposed to be a competitive fighting game, easily 75% of the options/decisions are not really balanced with each other, and the entire setting is so over the top and ridiculous that it's supposed to be impossible to take seriously...but there's still that group of people out there who say "screw it! I'm playing this game competitively."

That said, the merits of random psychic power tables are still up for debate. It all depends on what you want to play the game for I guess.

Pretty much. Gotta fit those square pegs into those round holes.

rivers64 wrote:
When I started this thread I tried to convey specifically that it was not even particularly the balance of the powers that irritated me the most, it was the inability to plan and have fun the way in which I like to with my army. Honestly randomizing powers just makes the unit stupid to me and I would prefer to know that I was getting a terrible power every time rather than have to roll on a chart.

And yet, Fantasy players have 0 trouble with their Wizards getting random spells every single game, with added "disadvantage" of not even being able to specifically tailor their chosen Magic Lores to their opponents every single game like 40k psykers can...

Honestly the fantasy arguments hold no merit for me or in 40k forums in general, I have never played fantasy, it hold no appeal for me to start, and they are completely different games from what I can tell. I can neither agree nor disagree with how fantasy should be because I know literally nothing about the rules. This is a forum about 40k please stop saying "why should you get to have fun when those other guys don't bitch about a semi-similar situation."

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Ugh do some of you listen to yourselves?

 amanita wrote:


Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.

WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.

If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.

So if a company moves its game in a direction you don't approve the solution is simply to go along or quit because after all, that's now the way it's going. Sheer genius! My apologies, it's just so hard how to figure out how to properly use may space dollies!

 amanita wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Ugh do some of you listen to yourselves?

 amanita wrote:


Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.

WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.

If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.

So if a company moves its game in a direction you don't approve the solution is simply to go along or quit because after all, that's now the way it's going. Sheer genius! My apologies, it's just so hard how to figure out how to properly use may space dollies!

Exactly. You can go with it, or leave. You can even leave and support a company that has a 'direction for it's game' that better appeals to what you want and therefore provides more pleasure in return for your time invested.

Or keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole I guess.

Have fun making that decision.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Exactly. You can go with it, or leave. You can even leave and support a company that has a 'direction for it's game' that better appeals to what you want and therefore provides more pleasure in return for your time invested.

Or keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole I guess.

Have fun making that decision.

That's a pretty pessimistic point of view, don't you think? Just take it or give up? Just because there are elements of the game we don't like doesn't mean we dislike the game as a whole. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't spend my time talking about it here because I hate the game, I'm talking about how to make it better because I love 40k. Do I think it has a couple bad mechanics or flawed designs? Most definitely. I think it's a little unfair to say, though, that just because someone disagrees with GW's notion of how to play the game, they shouldn't try to play the game how they want.

 amanita wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Ugh do some of you listen to yourselves?

 amanita wrote:


Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.

WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.

If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.

So if a company moves its game in a direction you don't approve the solution is simply to go along or quit because after all, that's now the way it's going. Sheer genius! My apologies, it's just so hard how to figure out how to properly use may space dollies!

The thing is, the direction goes back and forth from edition to edition.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.

Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.

In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.

 Kain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.

Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.

In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.

Tzeentch is also the god of change. If anything, it makes more sense for Tzeentch units to have random powers than anything else!

 Kain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.

Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.

In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.

12 galaxies devoid of any form of life. Where's your crown, King Nothing?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 amanita wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Ugh do some of you listen to yourselves?

 amanita wrote:


Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.

WH40K shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as real strategy games like Chess and Go.
If you're playing the game as anything more than a fun social beer and pretzel game with pretty models in a broadly appealing sci-fi universe, you're not using the product as intended.
As the Games Day designer said, the design philosophy is firmly towards the more adult audience whom appreciate that direction.

If you want more impact on your tabletop dollies for your decisions, good or bad, play Warmachine.

So if a company moves its game in a direction you don't approve the solution is simply to go along or quit because after all, that's now the way it's going. Sheer genius! My apologies, it's just so hard how to figure out how to properly use may space dollies!

Exactly. You can go with it, or leave. You can even leave and support a company that has a 'direction for it's game' that better appeals to what you want and therefore provides more pleasure in return for your time invested.

Or keep trying to hammer that square peg into a round hole I guess.

Have fun making that decision.

Congratulations! It sounds like you have already pounded your square head into a round hole. You'd rather fit your thinking into whatever rules are presented, regardless of their merit. I'd rather alter the peg to make it a better fit.

A few things come to mind here.

1.) What makes people think GW are capable of correctly point costing anything let alone Psychic powers?

2.) In 5th most codices had all powers cost equally and this led to some powers being great and others worthless. (See marine codex, SW codex, GK codex...the list goes on.)

3.) So while its nice to know what your psyker will do, the idea that GW could balance it is laughable.

4.) People who say that armies don't need to roll for wargear better not go look at codex Daemons...

5.) The argument that it is dumb that multiple races know the same power makes no sense is dumb. Maybe the power does the same thing but slightly differently in "reality". I'd rather see some blandness, than some armies full of useless psychic powers.

6.) Back th the GW point costing things. They either cannot balance things, or don't want to. Just look at the Primaris powers in the book. Who is going to say that any of them are on the same plain as Prescience?

Now random may stink, but it is the game GW has designed, especially in 6th.

Random charge, random powers, random traits, terrain, objectives, night fight....GW thinks random is fun. If you don't perhaps you are playing the wrong game.

Makumba wrote:
But if you get the wrong stuff on your brood lord or your biker caster doesnt get invisibility , then it is not just him being bad , it could be anything from 300 to 400pts being bad. If that MC without wings doesn't get iron arm and it happens for two or three of them there is no way to change tactics , the same unit has to do the same job for the same points while being worse. At the same time a non psychic power upgrade or unit works always and all the time .

The best way to avoid this is to not *require* specific psychic powers to be rolled in order for your force to be successfu. Sure think about what you will do if the power you REALLY want is rolled, but if you bet all your chips on getting that power or your force is not going to get the job done, then it isn't the fault of the randomization rule, but your own fault for requiring that specific random result or your army sucks. You CAN readily build your force around the primaris powers, though. So if you must know what powers you'll have and what you can do with them up front, just build around those. Sure they aren't the most powerful powers in each list, but you can guarantee you can have them.

Not sure why people are acting like this is a new concept. This random aspect isn't new to psychic powers, and random spell generation has been common in fantasy practically from the get go. I do like the concept of point based powers instead, though. With a low level power being 10 points and a higher one being 50 or more points. Then you can choose exactly what power you want, but if the power is very powerful it won't be cheap.

Skriker

IF the psychic abilities are to be randomly generated, they should be EQUALLY useful.
If the psychic abilities are to have varing power, they should be costed accordingly.OR have a ballanceing mechanic when the model uses them.
(Eg the more powerful the ability the harder it is to use successfully.)

Just using randomness to remove player choice from the game is BAD game development .

Those who like randomness, try randomly generating your army .
200pts per roll on the unit chart.
You MAY get a unit worth 1000pts or 30pts.
But this just adds to the 'fun' does it not?

Play for fun by all means , but one sided , one or two turn decimation of armies are not 'fun' for any one.Are they?
(The ONLY thing more soul destroying than total defeat , is total victory.)

Oh I forgot GW plc write the rules for 'collectors' not players.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.

Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.

In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.

12 galaxies devoid of any form of life. Where's your crown, King Nothing?

You can't take over one, we destroyed dozens. Yours is next. There's no hope, no respite, no escape, only an apocalypse of screaming hunger that shall devour the stars.

I play Black Templars.

I tried to care about other codecies having to roll for their Psychic Powers, then I looked at my codex again and LAUGHED, LAUGHED, LAUGHED!

 Kain wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.

Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.

In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.

12 galaxies devoid of any form of life. Where's your crown, King Nothing?

You can't take over one, we destroyed dozens. Yours is next. There's no hope, no respite, no escape, only an apocalypse of screaming hunger that shall devour the stars.

Um... The Human race conquered the Galaxy twice. The Necrons did it once and are trying again. The Eldar took the reigns for awhile too.

"Take over" and "Destroyed" are two different things. And the Tyranids already tried to... "destroy" the milky way. See: Catachan Devil/Brainleaf, Fenris Kraken and Ymargl Genestealers.

There must not have been anything of worth in the other galaxies they consumed.

With their infinite resorces (yes infinite, if they already consumed that much matter they should outnumber the stars of the milkyway 1000x over) they should have FTL travel and other super weapons.

They Tyranids are a failure. They seem to think that bigger is better.

In truth if the Tyranids were the perfect creature for destoying everything they'd be a virus or something. Not dinosaur bugs that float through space in balls of ice.

For those using a fluff justification for picking powers:

Isn't the warp a very unpredictable and fickle power to call upon and even messes up the eldar on multiple occasions even the greatest psykers in the universe cant guarantee the effects of their abilities.

On the subject of random powers being broken or annoying or nonstrategic from a rules perspective, consider for a second that you make your strategic decision by deciding to include a psyker, picking his level and more importantly picking his lore. EVERY psyker I know of (Not too sure of tyranids) has a choice of lores, if your rolling on a table for a SINGLE power, you've decided its worth the risk. Maybe you should have picked a different lore?

As to comparing rolling psychic powers compared to picking weaponry upgrades, there is a monumental difference between

Channeling the forbidden powers from a different hell dimension that is the domain of vengeful, evil chaotic gods

Picking a Las-cannon from the armoury.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Kain wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I think the self bioengineering Hive Mind would disagree about who is psychically supreme.

Let the Tyranids disagree all they want, Tzeench is the God of magic.

In the milky way galaxy. The Tyranids have about twelve or more under their belt.

12 galaxies devoid of any form of life. Where's your crown, King Nothing?

You can't take over one, we destroyed dozens. Yours is next. There's no hope, no respite, no escape, only an apocalypse of screaming hunger that shall devour the stars.

Um... The Human race conquered the Galaxy twice. The Necrons did it once and are trying again. The Eldar took the reigns for awhile too.

"Take over" and "Destroyed" are two different things. And the Tyranids already tried to... "destroy" the milky way. See: Catachan Devil/Brainleaf, Fenris Kraken and Ymargl Genestealers.

There must not have been anything of worth in the other galaxies they consumed.

With their infinite resorces (yes infinite, if they already consumed that much matter they should outnumber the stars of the milkyway 1000x over) they should have FTL travel and other super weapons.

They Tyranids are a failure. They seem to think that bigger is better.

In truth if the Tyranids were the perfect creature for destoying everything they'd be a virus or something. Not dinosaur bugs that float through space in balls of ice.

Tyranids do have FTL, read the codex.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Narvhal#.UbY8sUAwdqU

And the Imperium has conquered a negligable portion of the inhabitable worlds of the galaxy.

Millions out of billions does not equal even a single percent. Color me unimpressed.

The Necrons? Again, millions out of billions is a tiny number.

Chaos? A tiny fraction out of an imperium that rules a tiny fraction of the galaxy. Largely significant only because of the threat it poses to the legitimacy of the Imperium and to the souls of the Eldar.

Eldar? A dying race that had a similar hegemony to the Imperium, it's gone now and their kind is not long for the stars.

Orks? They have everything they want, they're a bioweapon of the Old Ones run amuck, and they failed to defend their masters in the end given that the Old Ones are dead.

Tau? Don't make me laugh, the Tau are worthless ants on the galactic scale.

The Tyranids are endless, they are the end, they are the eldest race, billions rather than millions of years old. A festering hunger that will consume all things. Not a species, but the many arms of one mind.

The Tyranids exist to look big and scary and then be killed by the billions to make the heroes look good. They are bug Orks.

Leave the role of Big Bad to Chaos and the Necrons.

Also, the Necrons conquered the entire galaxy under the reign of the C'tan. All of it. And even now, their worlds outnumber those of every other species.

It is also interesting to note that, to this day, the Tyranids have never defeated an awake Necron force.

danp164 wrote:
For those using a fluff justification for picking powers:

Isn't the warp a very unpredictable and fickle power to call upon and even messes up the eldar on multiple occasions even the greatest psykers in the universe cant guarantee the effects of their abilities.

Actually, from what I've read fluffwise, psykers are able to do the same thing, fairly regularly, although it takes a toll on them mentally and physically. The Astronomicon doesn't just go out one day because the Emperor rolled a different power that day.

If you read any of the Ravenor/Eisenhorn books, the abilities of every psyker mentioned are well-defined and constant. Some may try to push themselves for greater effect, but the nature of their powers are constant.

That is consistent with all 40k fluff.

Only the Orks randomly generate their powers.

Even Tzeentchian psykers/sorcerers are pretty constant.

On the other hand, Chaos has guys like this.




That one worshipper Khorne fervently denies the association with.

Wait, I've got it: every psyker fielded on the table is using their powers for the very first time. They've just been inducted into the Librarius/sanctioned by the Guard/started down the Path of the Seer. That's clearly why they don't know what they'll be able to do once the bullets start flying! And every special character just woke up after getting a concussion and forgot.

Haha Scott McNeil, you sly dog.