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Hello everyone, with the release of the new Iyaden Codex for the Eldar this created a converstaion at my store that apparently according to one player, is a legitimate rumor. A friend of mine at a tournament earlier today says that this will only be the beginning of the supplemental books for GW as rumors abound for the new Ork book that they would have a Klan or even a few Klan supplemental books. Now that got us to thinking, could you see GW releasing Supplemental books for all future codexs? For example the Ork book would have different clans, Imperial Guard would have different regiments, Space Marines varying codex chapters (Imperial Fists, Raven Guard ect.) and Tyranids different Hive Fleets. What do you guys think of the plausability of this happening?

One can only assume they will if the Iyanden book is successful. I'm thinking Black Templars will get rolled into one come Codex: Space Marines.

Depends on how well the Eldar one sells. There's certainly an opportunity for it, and the absence of any real Farsight options in the Tau codex makes a lot more sense if you assume that GW is holding it back for a future $50 book.

 Brother SRM wrote:
One can only assume they will if the Iyanden book is successful. I'm thinking Black Templars will get rolled into one come Codex: Space Marines.

Either this or Imperial Fists perhaps. I've not seen the Iyanden one, but I don't think it'd introduce new units not in the main codex; just a simple reshuffling. BT would either vanish or be standalone, fists I suppose would work as a simple shuffling of the units in the main book would lend to its style. But, we'll have to wait and see.

Yeah, the success of Iyanden will determine the results.

Obvious candidates are a number of space marine chapters (and honestly they could do it to BA, BT, DA and SW without causing issues to the armies, but that could hurt their sales of full on dexes and models or make them better).

IG is an obvious source for spin offs with Catchcans, etc.

Eldar Corsairs and Harliquins are both potential spin offs for the Eldar.

Tau could spin off Kroot Mercenaries or any of a number of auxiliaries. Farsight enclaves could be done too.

Orks could have a Gretchen spin off.

Sisters could become a spin off to IG, GK or SM if they decide not to go full army for that. But seeing as they had more space in the rulebook than BT did I doubt that would happen. I actually think they may try to do some kind of Forces of the Imperium book which could be used to make GK, SoB and Inquisition armies.

I hope so. As long as it's handled well in terms of rules, it's a very nice idea that can really flesh out an army.

Jefffar wrote:
Sisters could become a spin off to IG, GK or SM if they decide not to go full army for that. But seeing as they had more space in the rulebook than BT did I doubt that would happen. I actually think they may try to do some kind of Forces of the Imperium book which could be used to make GK, SoB and Inquisition armies.

Ehh... Not too sold on the idea of some monolithic Imperial forces/Inquisiton codex. Seems like it'd get really bloated, both with fluff and rules. Could end up that some or all factions don't get enough fluff coverage, and I'm sure there'd be a fair few redundant units.

I agree with Troike, that'd be a rather bad idea. If we're going to start melding factions in to one codex and make supplements for them, better to start with variants of the same faction (which is mostly just Space Marines really).

But don't we already have a few in the past, or am I misinterpreting? I mean like DKoK and such-- we could use more books like the DKoK one.

I'd be very eager for a Chaos Legions one, but even more excited if there was a Traitor Guard Supplement. (Bring back the Lost and Damned).

Well, it could be. GW is all about making money in the first place. How about one book for each of the wellknown craftworlds with 100 pages of pics and stories and 1 page of new rules?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, it could be. GW is all about making money in the first place. How about one book for each of the wellknown craftworlds with 100 pages of pics and stories and 1 page of new rules?

That IS basically a summary of each Space Marine codex other than C:SM.


edit: Psst: It's a joke.

Sort of.

Jefffar wrote:
Obvious candidates are a number of space marine chapters (and honestly they could do it to BA, BT, DA and SW without causing issues to the armies, but that could hurt their sales of full on dexes and models or make them better).

Nooooo, this'd be a horrible idea. I take it you didn't see the 3rd edition Codexes that were done in the same vein. Blood Angels were reduced to "normal Marines with some fancy black armoured guys", and Space Wolves weren't much better off. Black Templars weren't seen as terrible because it was their first proper Codex, but reverting them back now would put them in the same boat.
As bad as they were, the 3rd edition Codexes had more army-specific rules than the Iyanden one does.

Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels and Space Wolves all need their own Codexes if they're to remain distinct. And, hey - Dark Angels already got theirs.

 Super Ready wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Obvious candidates are a number of space marine chapters (and honestly they could do it to BA, BT, DA and SW without causing issues to the armies, but that could hurt their sales of full on dexes and models or make them better).

Nooooo, this'd be a horrible idea. I take it you didn't see the 3rd edition Codexes that were done in the same vein. Blood Angels were reduced to "normal Marines with some fancy black armoured guys", and Space Wolves weren't much better off. Black Templars weren't seen as terrible because it was their first proper Codex, but reverting them back now would put them in the same boat.

But that is all they need to be 'unique', Blood Angels are ultimately just Codex Marines with a leaning towards jump troops and an 'honor guard' unit with jump packs.
Dark Angels are just Codex Marines with more terminators than anyone else.
What makes Space Wolves unique? That they ride wolves and drink ale?
Of all the various marine books the Black Templar one is the one most worth keeping stand alone, but even then it is screaming 'unique' from C:SM as it is 'variant' of C:SM.
They could all easily be represented by supplements that are no more than ~30 - 40 pages long.

Wether GW is competent enough to do it is another thing completely.

 Melissia wrote:
I agree with Troike, that'd be a rather bad idea. If we're going to start melding factions in to one codex and make supplements for them, better to start with variants of the same faction (which is mostly just Space Marines really).

But don't we already have a few in the past, or am I misinterpreting? I mean like DKoK and such-- we could use more books like the DKoK one.

We had a lot when it was 3rd Edition. Catachans, Eye of Terror (Cadians, Ulthwe, LatD, 13th Company), and various of the SM books which relied upon you having the SM codex (Blood Angels, I think).

Every army has potential for this, and i'd really like to sell it.
There's hundreds of IG regiments,
Tyranid swarms-I recall there being a rather unique Strain in the Tau Dex
Space Marine chapters, goes without saying,
Chaos God armies,
Ork Clans
Necron.. dynasties?
All kinds of stuff. And it could really add some variety and exceedingly unique armies to the game.

If anything, I would hope they do the Chaos Legions with supplement books.

 Super Ready wrote:
Nooooo, this'd be a horrible idea. I take it you didn't see the 3rd edition Codexes that were done in the same vein. Blood Angels were reduced to "normal Marines with some fancy black armoured guys"

Which is kind of a fairly accurate depiction as far as I can tell. Blood Angels really aren't that different from "basic" Space Marines.

Honestly, I'm all for supplemental codex extras. If you don't want them don't buy them (which is probably what will determine whether GW makes them anyway) and it gives some opportunity to explore various smaller factions that couldn't fill a full codex.

That said, it can increase the startup cost for some people. Say they fold some SM chapters back in. Anybody who wants to run, say, Blood Angels, will now have to buy both C:SM and "Codex Supplement, Blood Angels". I just can't see how they would balance it out with content in main codex vs content in supplement, unless people actually admit their favorite space marine chapter doesn't need its own full codex's worth of rules, and we all know how likely that is to happen (or how likely it is for GW to cut off half its revenue, although, the situation I described above might convince them to start selling space marine chapters as codex supplements come to think of it).

As I said above, the big issue will be balancing how much material goes in the core codex vs how much goes in each supplement, and balancing price between the two books so people who want to play "supplemental" forces don't have to completely double buy.

 Krellnus wrote:
But that is all they need to be 'unique', Blood Angels are ultimately just Codex Marines with a leaning towards jump troops and an 'honor guard' unit with jump packs.
Dark Angels are just Codex Marines with more terminators than anyone else.
What makes Space Wolves unique? That they ride wolves and drink ale?
Of all the various marine books the Black Templar one is the one most worth keeping stand alone, but even then it is screaming 'unique' from C:SM as it is 'variant' of C:SM.
They could all easily be represented by supplements that are no more than ~30 - 40 pages long.

Wether GW is competent enough to do it is another thing completely.

Unique Blood Angels units:
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests
Death Company
Furioso Dreadnought
Death Company Dreadnought
Baal Predator
Dedicated Transport Land Raiders

That's enough to warrant a Codex in my eyes, but more than that... trying to build a jump-pack focussed army from a vanilla Marines book has never gone well. Their Assault Marines have been consistently underpowered. Blood Angels need unique rules to make this viable, like Descent of Angels and Sanguinary Priest buffs... and if you want a look at how badly nerfing these buffs affected us, go check out the Tactics forum and search for all the Blood Angels threads since 6th dropped.

...don't even get me started on Space Wolves. Aside from the vehicles they don't have any standard vanilla units!! Scouts are Veterans instead of newbies, Long Fangs are better than standard Devastators, their Assault troops are nuts and turn up in big numbers, and even their equivalent to Tactical Marines are geared towards combat.

Dark Angels have Ravenwing as well as Deathwing. Not to mention their recent new rules for hatred towards Chaos was a fantastic step.

Black Templars admittedly have less in the way of unique units... but the main one is their core Troops unit. No other army allows you to mix Battle Brothers and Scouts in the same unit. While I could see this being rolled into a supplement book, there is a chance to develop them into something more, another army that well and truly stands aside from vanilla Marines.

While I'm sure I'll get shouted down for saying it, but it would not be at all hard to add a few alternate rules to C:SM to make a jump troop army viable, turning C:BA in to a "take this HQ character and you're now playing BA".

I'm not advocating this be done, mind you (nor would mourn it happening), only stating that there really isn't much of a difference between red marines or blue marines as you're making it out t obe.

Personally I hope it tanks hard. The codexs are expensive enough as it is. I don't want GW holding back rules that should go in them just so they can jam them into a separate book for another 50$. They want to make fluff books then fine but keep the rules in the codex.

Codex inquisition

- SOB supplemental book
- GK supplemental book
- Death watch supplemental book

I predict this *nod self*

i think it depends on their sucess with the iyaden book

 Super Ready wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
But that is all they need to be 'unique', Blood Angels are ultimately just Codex Marines with a leaning towards jump troops and an 'honor guard' unit with jump packs.
Dark Angels are just Codex Marines with more terminators than anyone else.
What makes Space Wolves unique? That they ride wolves and drink ale?
Of all the various marine books the Black Templar one is the one most worth keeping stand alone, but even then it is screaming 'unique' from C:SM as it is 'variant' of C:SM.
They could all easily be represented by supplements that are no more than ~30 - 40 pages long.

Wether GW is competent enough to do it is another thing completely.

Unique Blood Angels units:
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests
Death Company
Furioso Dreadnought
Death Company Dreadnought
Baal Predator
Dedicated Transport Land Raiders

But ultimatley they don't significantly alter the overall play style of combat - centric Vanilla marines enough to differentiate them.

That's enough to warrant a Codex in my eyes, but more than that... trying to build a jump-pack focussed army from a vanilla Marines book has never gone well. Their Assault Marines have been consistently underpowered. Blood Angels need unique rules to make this viable, like Descent of Angels and Sanguinary Priest buffs... and if you want a look at how badly nerfing these buffs affected us, go check out the Tactics forum and search for all the Blood Angels threads since 6th dropped.

That's a problem with the balancing of the rules themselves, not whether that makes the army fight signifcantly differently in its fluff.

...don't even get me started on Space Wolves. Aside from the vehicles they don't have any standard vanilla units!! Scouts are Veterans instead of newbies, Long Fangs are better than standard Devastators, their Assault troops are nuts and turn up in big numbers, and even their equivalent to Tactical Marines are geared towards combat.

That's because they got the "we want these guys to be Codex: Special Snowflakes, lets shower them in 'uniqueness" instead of "these guys fight in such a different way to regular marines, what rules can we give them to represent this, if they were truly about giving unique factions rules, than the Iron Snakes are the best chapter to give a divergent codex to, even moreso than BT.

Dark Angels have Ravenwing as well as Deathwing. Not to mention their recent new rules for hatred towards Chaos was a fantastic step.

Onto my chapter, they get the exact same number of standard bikers as any other codex - compliant chapter and just happen to have their first company vets have enough terminator armour to permanently fight in it, they are even easier to give a supplement to than Blood Angels.

Black Templars admittedly have less in the way of unique units... but the main one is their core Troops unit. No other army allows you to mix Battle Brothers and Scouts in the same unit. While I could see this being rolled into a supplement book, there is a chance to develop them into something more, another army that well and truly stands aside from vanilla Marines.

I agree with you on BT

 Super Ready wrote:

Unique Blood Angels units:
Sanguinary Guard

Honourguard gets a jump pack upgrade. Done.

Sanguinary Priests

Apotecharies. Everyone should have independent Apotecharies, and no one should have Apotecharies that can affect multiple units. BA Apotecharies can get upgrade for furious charge.

Death Company

That they should get. It is probably unique enough to be its own unit insteadf of being an upgrade to some already existing unit.

Furioso Dreadnought
Death Company Dreadnought

Everyone should be able to take dedicated CC dreads. BAs can paint theirs black or red as they please.

Baal Predator

Give Predator an option to take assault cannons. No Predator should be fast vehicle.

Dedicated Transport Land Raiders

There is absolutely no reason to have this.

That's enough to warrant a Codex in my eyes, but more than that... trying to build a jump-pack focussed army from a vanilla Marines book has never gone well. Their Assault Marines have been consistently underpowered. Blood Angels need unique rules to make this viable, like Descent of Angels and Sanguinary Priest buffs... and if you want a look at how badly nerfing these buffs affected us, go check out the Tactics forum and search for all the Blood Angels threads since 6th dropped.

what exactly would assault marines need to be like for them to be taken? GK interceptor price and abilities level?

 sudojoe wrote:
what exactly would assault marines need to be like for them to be taken? GK interceptor price and abilities level?

I don't know. Currently no-one takes them. Chainswords could get rending or the squad could get few power weapons. Space Marine jump packs could get rule that would allow them to be used in both movement and assault phases.

 sudojoe wrote:
what exactly would assault marines need to be like for them to be taken? GK interceptor price and abilities level?

access to a more varied array of special weapons, melta guns, maybe inferno pistols or flamer pistols. some power weapons, maybe storm shields or combat shields. perhaps cheap melta bombs.

Assault marines aren't bad because they are weak (they are space marines) they are bad because they have no real ability to be upgraded. they can do their job against small rear area units, and can be used to intercept enemy units and slow them down, but thats about it. what assault marines need is to be a viable attacking unit, and that doesn't just mean they should be loaded up for close combat nastiness. they need the ability to not only get somewhere quickly (which they can) but be a viable threat when they get there (they currently aren't)

I'd love to see a supplemental codex for my white scars and there are other people in my gaming group who use raven guard and salamanders. Wolves, BA, DA all get their own codex which is fine, but give the other loyalist ones a supplemental codex and I'd be ecstatic...

Too much to quote easily from my phone, but hopefully it's obvious who I'm replying to.

Having Blood Angels as a supplement book could be serviceable if it's of better quality than the 3rd ed ones. If you took out everything that is shared with Codex Marines right now I suppose it would be about half to 2/3rds the size. But to argue that they're simply Marines in red...they can certainly be run that way but it's not really how they SHOULD be run. A proper BA army should centre around jump packs and assault, not have another Marine shooty army with some tacked-on assaulty bits.

To expand on that, Honour Guard and Sanguinary Guard are two VERY different units, both in fluff and rules. It would be nice to see vanilla Marines get Librarian dreads, but they have ironclads for assault roles, and we've had unique DC dreads for ages (3rd ed if you include a single special character). Rolling that into one generic assault dread unit would be akin to making DC count as Vanguard.

Having played Blood Angels in 5th going back to an Iyanden level of supplemental rules would be a massive disappointment. I imagine the same would apply to Space Wolves as well. To those that disagree, I ask - do you play these armies regularly?

jamin484 has the right idea, supplements will work best with armies that don't have their very own codex right now...but I'd want to see non-Marines come first.

 Super Ready wrote:
But to argue that they're simply Marines in red

Would be fairly accurate really.

Just one of the 1000 loyalist Space Marine chapters.