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This is something that is bothering me greatly.

I was a TO earlier today and I had to make a call about a tau commander joining a riptide.

I Said no. This was greatly due to the fact that he never purchased drones for the riptide. I know there are other threads about this, but they never bring up what I am going to shortly.

Data:

BRB: Page 39: Independent Character:
-- "They cannot, however, join a vehicle squadron (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model..."

Tau Codex: Page 33: Unit Upgrade Drones
--- "Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards."

These two things give the ability for the riptide to be a multi-model unit. There is no doubt here. Where I am confused as is on Page 100 of the Tau Codex:
--- "Make take up to two Shielded Missile Drones ..."

Here is my greatest confusion. All other units, even Piranhas, state that when they want to 'purchase' another model (going from 6 fire warriors to 7 fire warriors) that they "may include" models.

Stealth team:
--- "May include up to three additional..."
Pathfinders
------ "May include up to six additional..."

Even for drone squadrons and sniper drone teams
Drone Squadron
--- "May include up to eight additional..."
Sniper Drone Team
--- "May include up to six additional..."

The only other time that "may take" comes into account is for wargear

Stealth team
--- "The entire unit may take the bonding knife"
Commander
--- "May take up to four items..."
--- "May take items from the Signature Systems list."

Even the riptide has another "may take" entry:
Riptide:
--- "May take up to two items from the Support Systems list."



So here is the question:

At what point can a piece of wargear be taken into affect: before or after purchasing?

jazzpaintball wrote:
At what point does the riptide benefit as a multi-model unit?

At all times. You're imagining a difference that isn't there based on slight differences in wording between "include" and "purchase". There isn't some hidden meaning in it, GW just didn't use the exact same word in every case. So, all you need is the quote from page 39:

They cannot, however, join a vehicle squadron (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model..."

A Riptide does not always consist of a single model, since there are situations where a Riptide is a multi-model unit. Therefore ICs can always join it.

I am imagining a difference?

All drones are a "may take" like wargear:

Commander Shadowsun
Ethereal
Cadre Fireblade
Commander
Bodyguards
Fire Warriors
Crisis Teams
Stealth Teams
Riptides
Pathfinders
Broadsides

All wargear are a "may take"

All squad additions including drone squadrons and sniper drone teams are a "May Include."
Bodyguards
Fire Warriors
Kroot
Crisis Teams
Stealth suits
Pathfinders
Vespid
Drone Squadrons
Piranha
Broadsides
Sniper Drone Teams

I am not imagining a difference, there is a blatant difference on how it is written. So at what point does wargear take affect.

I am seeing it like other wargear:
Weapons on a suit does not have interceptor until an Early Warning Override system is bought.
Weapons do not have skyfire until Velocity Tracker is bought.

Shouldn't the drones be considered the same since they are bought as wargear?

The drones are models, and therefore the riptide is not a unit that always consists of one model. It doesn't matter that they are wargear.

jazzpaintball wrote:
I am imagining a difference?

Yes. Because there's nothing that suggests a multi-model unit that can be generated through "may take" is any different than one that can be generated through "may include". They're both potential multi-model units.

Shouldn't the drones be considered the same since they are bought as wargear?

It doesn't matter. The limit on ICs joining a unit refers to a unit ALWAYS being a single model. If there is any situation where the unit can be composed of more than one model then it is no longer always a single model.

 Peregrine wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
I am imagining a difference?

Yes. Because there's nothing that suggests a multi-model unit that can be generated through "may take" is any different than one that can be generated through "may include". They're both potential multi-model units.

no, one is a true multi-model unit (May include) for you can include other models.

Drone squadron --- you "may include" more drones to the squadron since you are adding more models to the unit.
Sniper Drone Team --- you "may include" more drones or more Marksmen since you are adding more models to the unit.

The riptide has "may take" two drones as wargear. Until the list has that wargear, the wargear does not take affect as an additional unit model. Just like you can not have Night vision on a Hammerhead until you purchase it.

jazzpaintball wrote:
Until the list has that wargear, the wargear does not take affect as an additional unit model.

Please cite the rule that says this.

Just like you can not have Night vision on a Hammerhead until you purchase it.

No, that's a terrible comparison because the IC rule doesn't ask if the unit currently has more than one model, it asks if it could EVER have more than one model. The correct analogy would be if you had a rule that said "any vehicle that never has night vision takes a glancing hit", which would not apply to a Hammerhead because it has the ability to gain night vision.

I'm with Peregrine here, all the issues of timing and wording etc are irrelevant, what is relevant is that the Riptide, in some instances, will have more than one model in it's unit.

Done and dusted, that is a fact and that fact means it is not a unit "that always consists of a single model".

The only question that matters is "Is the riptide ALWAYS a unit that only 1 model."

The answer is simply no. Regardless of how it got additional models, it can be a unit of more than one.

Tau Codex page 33, under unit upgrade drones, first sentence:

Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards.

There is no exception in the following paragraphs for what you (the OP) are asking, they are ALWAYS additional squad members.

Since it has the possibility to gain additional members of the squad, it may be joined by an IC

I think the missing link here is this little rule on page 33 of the tau codex
"Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards. They are unable to leave their unit and must maintain unit coherency with their unit at all times."

If drones taken as an upgrade are treated as squad members in all regards, then a Riptide is not a unit that always consists of a single model.

jazzpaintball wrote:
Shouldn't the drones be considered the same since they are bought as wargear?

Where does it say this?
Because pg. 33 of the codex is quite clear that they are squad members in every respect.

By that logic Commanders can't join units of one crisis or broadside suits because they didn't purchase additional members either.

I think the question is not "can you join a riptide because it CAN take drones". I think the real question is "does a riptide that HAS NOT taken drones ALWAYS consist of a single model". That's my interpretation. Which means that no, it cannot, unless it purchased drones.

Except you're adding a restriction that doesn't actually exist.
what's the difference between a Riptide that has not purchased drones and one that did, but the drones were destroyed? Rules-wise that is - the points cost will obviously be different.

There isn't a difference, and yet you're attempting to treat them differently with no basis in rules.

Then we disagree fundamentally on the interpretation of the use of "always". I completely understand your argument, but my interpretation is as above. Since I have nothing to debate other than the use of the word "always", I will concede the point, although our gaming group will still be playing that it still needs drones.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Then we disagree fundamentally on the interpretation of the use of "always". I completely understand your argument, but my interpretation is as above. Since I have nothing to debate other than the use of the word "always", I will concede the point, although our gaming group will still be playing that it still needs drones.

And so would a single Carnifex, Spider, or other multi-model MC?

Or a single Paladin?

If Draigo is joined to a 2 man paladin squad and one of the paladins dies, what happens to the unit?

Or just a single XV8 clearly you can't join that by his interpretation.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I think the real question is "does a riptide that HAS NOT taken drones ALWAYS consist of a single model".

And the answer is no, it does not always consist of a single model. Even if you don't use the option to buy drones the option still exists, therefore the Riptide is not always a single-model unit and can be joined by ICs.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Or just a single XV8 clearly you can't join that by his interpretation.

I would say that a single XV8 can be joined by a IC due to the fact that you "may include" additional models to the unit.

Same as a carnifex: you can have 1+ canifex in a unit.

The riptide is a 1 unit model at all times. You "may take" two drones. The drones are counted as additional models. Until the wargear (due to the wording of the codex, I have to label these drones as wargear unlike the additional models for Drone Squadrons and Sniper Drone Teams) is actually bought, they can not be considered a multi-model unit.

If a private club ALWAYS caters to millionaires, they do not cater to everyone that has the ability to become a millionaire but only those who ACTUALLY has a million+ dollars.
The riptide has the ability to buy more models, but does not benefit from them until they are ACTUALLY bought.

jazzpaintball wrote:
If a private club ALWAYS caters to millionaires, they do not cater to everyone that has the ability to become a millionaire but only those who ACTUALLY has a million+ dollars.
The riptide has the ability to buy more models, but does not benefit from them until they are ACTUALLY bought.

Bad comparison. A better example is 'This private club does not cater to anyone who cannot be a millionaire".

jazzpaintball wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Or just a single XV8 clearly you can't join that by his interpretation.

I would say that a single XV8 can be joined by a IC due to the fact that you "may include" additional models to the unit.

Same as a carnifex: you can have 1+ canifex in a unit.

The riptide is a 1 unit model at all times. You "may take" two drones. The drones are counted as additional models. Until the wargear (due to the wording of the codex, I have to label these drones as wargear unlike the additional models for Drone Squadrons and Sniper Drone Teams) is actually bought, they can not be considered a multi-model unit.

If a private club ALWAYS caters to millionaires, they do not cater to everyone that has the ability to become a millionaire but only those who ACTUALLY has a million+ dollars.
The riptide has the ability to buy more models, but does not benefit from them until they are ACTUALLY bought.

I feel as if RAW says they can join Riptides always.

I feel as if RAI they shouldn't, mind you this is based loosely off of the SW Codex and their Fenrisian wolves for HQ's. Essentially if an HQ can take 2 wolves becoming a unit of 3 models yet still be able to join other units, than obviously there's a difference between regular models and wargear models.

So despite the fact that drones always count as regular members of a unit, you refuse to count them as such.

Interesting. You're free to rule however as a TO, but your current stance is contrary to the actual rules and you should let people know before the tournament.

rigeld2 wrote:
So despite the fact that drones always count as regular members of a unit, you refuse to count them as such.

Interesting. You're free to rule however as a TO, but your current stance is contrary to the actual rules and you should let people know before the tournament.

I ruled it the way I did for 5 other Tau players all came with the decision that it was not allowed. Never before this tourney have I had someone try and join an IC to a riptide without drones. He did not do this as an initial strategy, but rather a last ditch operation. Since it was the 'high' table, there were many people watching the game and when the maneuver was tried, it was fought by the opponent with on-lookers also putting in their information.

As far as drones go: I have not, and will not, say/said that drones don't count as regular members of a unit. I count them as such.

What I am trying to convey is that in all wording of the codex, a drone on a riptide is purchased as wargear. Not an additional member of a unit. (please see OP for the complete list of this wording).

If riptides would have "may include up to two Shielded Missile Drones," this would never be fought, but it doesnt. It "may take" drones (IE wargear).
The problem we are all having is not whether riptides have additional models, but when does wargear take affect. Does it take affect in codex, or only when 'purchased' and used on within an army list.

in all wording of the codex, drones are purchased as wargear. Not an additional member of a unit.

The codex disagrees

Drones taken as upgrades for a unit count as additional members of that unit in all regards.

Regardless of how the can get to the unit, those additional members can get there. You are simply wrong.

cryhavok wrote:

in all wording of the codex, drones are purchased as wargear. Not an additional member of a unit.

The codex disagrees

How does it disagree when it is the codex itself?

Drones count as members of a unit, but they are purchased as wargear.

I have been asking this question every time with no answers:

At what point does wargear take affect? In the codex or on an army list/on the table?

jazzpaintball wrote:

cryhavok wrote:

in all wording of the codex, drones are purchased as wargear. Not an additional member of a unit.

The codex disagrees

How does it disagree when it is the codex itself?

Drones count as members of a unit, but they are purchased as wargear.

I have been asking this question every time with no answers:

At what point does wargear take affect? In the codex or on an army list/on the table?

That first quote was from you, not the codex, my second quote was from the codex and said pretty much the opposite of what you said.

Your question is irrelevant. The possibility exists, however many steps are involved, for the riptide to have additional members of a unit. That possibility exists because drones can be bought, which then become additional members of the unit. The only requirment the needs to be met is the possibility being there.

jazzpaintball wrote:
I have been asking this question every time with no answers:

At what point does wargear take affect? In the codex or on an army list/on the table?

Generally, we aren't told. Individually, each piece of wargear tells us when it takes effect. However, the distinction between wargear and models doesn't come into effect at all as part of the main rules in the rulebook. So you have to refer to each individual instance per the model/wargear's own rules.
For example - for Squigs and Watchers in the Dark, we're told by the relevant Codex to ignore the models during gameplay as though they weren't there. However, Fenrisian Wolves are another example of a wargear option that also counts as a model in a unit.

So for drones, the Codex tells us they are considered a part of the unit *FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES*. This is about as clear as it can get - there's no timing involved regarding wargear at all, so you have to go by timing for models, which in this case begins from deployment itself.

I must add my voice to those trying to tell you what you seem to have difficulty accepting - your call was wrong I'm afraid. Understandable, but wrong.

So what does the Riptide say under 'Unit Composition'?

I'm curious because although it has no bearing on strict RAW, it could be seen as an indication of intent as far as its interaction with the IC's 'may not join units that always consist of one model' rule.

Canoptek Spyder has a Unit Composition of 1 Spyder, but you can add 2 more.

Are you going to say that unit cannot be joined?

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
So what does the Riptide say under 'Unit Composition'?

I'm curious because although it has no bearing on strict RAW, it could be seen as an indication of intent as far as its interaction with the IC's 'may not join units that always consist of one model' rule.

Unit Composition in the newer codexes is solely what the unit starts with. It does not cover any extra models that may be added to the unit.