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Hello once again everyone, after playing in a tournament yesterday and being introduced to the new Eldar it has definitley made me decide to eventually build an army of these guys as my 2nd 40k army. I feel that this will be a good changeup from my Elysian Airborne/Air Cav IG list and that a "mechdar" list of sorts would be very competitive as if I remember correctly it was decently competitive in the past book. What I am thinking of running is:

-x3-x4 Waveserpents with Dire Avengers.
-A farseer with one of the Dire Avenger units
-x3 Wraithknights (only because I have seen how nasty it is when taking three of them).
-x2 Crimson hunters.
-A unit of Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks
-A unit of Pathfinders with Nightspear to camp on an objective.

Now this list is very much so open to change so nothing is remotely permenant as of yet but the idea here is to have multiple Waveserpents zipping around the board carrying Dire Avengers while x3 Wraithknights are wrecking face and Crimson Hunters targetting armor. Basically I am asking what made the "Mechdar" list so effective last edition? And i dont have the book and this was done while I was at work but would an army composed of the above units be at all competitive? Thanks again for reading guys

I have not seen many Eldar armies playing lately, and with the new rules, things are "Tzeentchy" right now.

(See what I did there? Yeah, it's probably not that funny...)

Warp Spiders? Yes. Swooping Hawks? No. From what I've seen, Jump troops are too fragile for their points cost, and not just Eldar, either: Marines suffer from the same problems.

When you buy Jump troops, you're paying for mobility, but not getting any more in the way of protection or firepower, and the dice are not your friends when it comes to saves.

Jump troops can work, sure, but you need to be very careful what you throw them at, and you will need to pay attention to what is nearby, because if another unit piles in, they can get creamed, real quick!

Warp Spiders seem to the the Eldar equivalent of Terminators (I think, right?), giving them a much-needed toughness boost. As long as you have a balance between protection and firepower, they should have more staying power than 'Hawks.

Use your objective-takers carefully, as well. From what I've seen, seizing an objective is easy: keeping it is hard, because that squad suddenly becomes the biggest bullet-catcher on the table! (Wait. They were here a minute ago!)

Well, mech Eldar was very viable in previous editions. With the new codex, the mech style with several Serpents seems to be playable again.
How many points are you aiming at, since your list has 3 - 4 Serpents and 3 Wraithknights?

Warp spiders are not termies they are t3 3+ just like dire avengers and fire dragons. They are very fast. They can jump, fleet , then jet pack move.

Wave serpents are one of the best things going for eldar right now. The serpent shield with scatter lasers brings a lot of fire power for not that much point cost. But Dire Avengers are not that amazing. I think you are better off taking jet bikes as your troops and getting your serpents from firedragons, wraiths, scorpions etc. With serpents and bikes and maybe a wraithknight in the back ground you can have an extremely fast, extremely mobile army, almost on par with dark eldar but much more survivable.

 lambsandlions wrote:
Wave serpents are one of the best things going for eldar right now. The serpent shield with scatter lasers brings a lot of fire power for not that much point cost. But Dire Avengers are not that amazing. I think you are better off taking jet bikes as your troops and getting your serpents from firedragons, wraiths, scorpions etc. With serpents and bikes and maybe a wraithknight in the back ground you can have an extremely fast, extremely mobile army, almost on par with dark eldar but much more survivable.

Not sure if GBJs will work. In my local meta, Helldrakes could show up and causing trouble to MEQ units.

That many Dire Avengers and Wave Serpents will make your entire army.

I've played a few games so far. Wave Serpents are good but shouldn't be taken in bulk.

Dire Avengers are so expensive in points (and apparently cash now) that they just aren't worth spamming.

I plan on running 2... maybe 3 squads of 6. With at least two riding in Falcons.

I have absolutely no interest in using Wraithknights so I can't help you with any info there. My suggestion... don't bother wasting the money.

Eldar have very few worth while scoring units. Dire Avengers may be the best choice for running up to objectives.

Guardians are better for mass bodies and hoping they survive till the end while on an objective.

Wraithguard are great for objectives... if you want to spend the points on them and the 70 point tax to make them troops.

Rangers/Pathfinders never struck me as something you want to take objectives with. They may be useful for firstblood/kill the warlord though.

Just some thoughts.

Edit: Forgot about jetbikes... They may or maynot be any good. I don't use them and refuse to spend that much on such outdated models.

Mechdar was strong because vehicles were quite hard to kill in 5th, and impossible to kill in 4th (Holofield/Spiritstones Wave Serpents, gosh what a nightmare)

You're forgetting the most lethal unit in the game at the moment: D-Scythe Wraithguard. In Wave Serpents. Eldar Mech just got a whole frackton scarier.

 DeffDred wrote:
That many Dire Avengers and Wave Serpents will make your entire army.

I've played a few games so far. Wave Serpents are good but shouldn't be taken in bulk.

Dire Avengers are so expensive in points (and apparently cash now) that they just aren't worth spamming.

I plan on running 2... maybe 3 squads of 6. With at least two riding in Falcons.

I have absolutely no interest in using Wraithknights so I can't help you with any info there. My suggestion... don't bother wasting the money.

Eldar have very few worth while scoring units. Dire Avengers may be the best choice for running up to objectives.

Guardians are better for mass bodies and hoping they survive till the end while on an objective.

Wraithguard are great for objectives... if you want to spend the points on them and the 70 point tax to make them troops.

Rangers/Pathfinders never struck me as something you want to take objectives with. They may be useful for firstblood/kill the warlord though.

Just some thoughts.

Edit: Forgot about jetbikes... They may or maynot be any good. I don't use them and refuse to spend that much on such outdated models.

I've been using Dire Avengers to great success so far. The 18' range, with Battlefocus pretty much ensures they will get two volleys off, before getting charged. Using a WS to help them get in proper position is great.

I've been using DA and WS a long with GJB as my go-to troop choices, and they work out pretty well.

Drop both crimson hunters
3 WS with DA
drop one WK
Add 2 units of 3 man jetbikes
add another farseer. Try for doom on both.

 Sasori wrote:
I've been using Dire Avengers to great success so far. The 18' range, with Battlefocus pretty much ensures they will get two volleys off, before getting charged. Using a WS to help them get in proper position is great.

I've been using DA and WS a long with GJB as my go-to troop choices, and they work out pretty well.

But that unit of DAs in a WS is around 300points. That's a heck of a lot of points for a troop choice.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I've been using Dire Avengers to great success so far. The 18' range, with Battlefocus pretty much ensures they will get two volleys off, before getting charged. Using a WS to help them get in proper position is great.

I've been using DA and WS a long with GJB as my go-to troop choices, and they work out pretty well.

But that unit of DAs in a WS is around 300points. That's a heck of a lot of points for a troop choice.

It clocks in at 275, but that's with a Scatterlaser/Shuricanon/Holofield Serpent. You could keep it much cheaper, if you wanted.

Points-wise, it's not that bad, for the amount of firepower those units can put out. Serpents are pretty amazing now, Scatter-lasers+Shuricanon is a fair amount of shots on it's own, but couple that in when you discharge the Serpent Sheild, it does a lot.

Getting troops where they need to be, is so imporant for Eldar. If you're not buying transports, you're leaving them very vulnerable, to their low T and Armor saves.

So, it's not cheap, but it has been working really well for me so far. My opponents have really underestimated the amount of firepower Dire Avengers and Wave Serpents put out now.

Its around 1850 with what i proposed. WK deal with heavier tanks, WS deal with medium-light vehicles, DA deal with hordes or medium quality inf. Only problem would be the lack of ability to deal with heavy troops and terminator spam. Thats where doom becomes necessary. As bladestorm+ doom is good enough to rend a unit apart.

Mechdar is probably the only consistently viable mechanized army out there right now. Between psychic support, nightfight, holofields, SMF, side AV12, and wave serpent shields, they're significantly hardier than any other mech army out there right now, almost on par with 5E mechanized forces, and are able to pack in tons of firepower, especially with cheap bright lances now.

 gmaleron wrote:
Hello once again everyone, after playing in a tournament yesterday and being introduced to the new Eldar it has definitley made me decide to eventually build an army of these guys as my 2nd 40k army. I feel that this will be a good changeup from my Elysian Airborne/Air Cav IG list and that a "mechdar" list of sorts would be very competitive as if I remember correctly it was decently competitive in the past book. What I am thinking of running is:

-x3-x4 Waveserpents with Dire Avengers.
-A farseer with one of the Dire Avenger units
-x3 Wraithknights (only because I have seen how nasty it is when taking three of them).
-x2 Crimson hunters.
-A unit of Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks
-A unit of Pathfinders with Nightspear to camp on an objective.

Now this list is very much so open to change so nothing is remotely permenant as of yet but the idea here is to have multiple Waveserpents zipping around the board carrying Dire Avengers while x3 Wraithknights are wrecking face and Crimson Hunters targetting armor. Basically I am asking what made the "Mechdar" list so effective last edition? And i dont have the book and this was done while I was at work but would an army composed of the above units be at all competitive? Thanks again for reading guys

Lol I wonder if my friend read this thread to come up with something very similar. Wupped my backside pretty handidly.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/532446.page

 Vaktathi wrote:
Mechdar is probably the only consistently viable mechanized army out there right now. Between psychic support, nightfight, holofields, SMF, side AV12, and wave serpent shields, they're significantly hardier than any other mech army out there right now, almost on par with 5E mechanized forces, and are able to pack in tons of firepower, especially with cheap bright lances now.

Guard still do it way way better imo, you put way more hulls on the field, way more scoring bodies on the field (Avengers still do nothing compared to Mech Vets), have more firepower, better support units and fliers which aren't made of paper.

Mech Eldar still fold to assault units, and since you can't zoom straight on to objectives late you can't keep giving around all game. They will also struggle against flier lists, since Crimson Hunters can't survive air to air battles against superior numbers.

The other issue I think quite a few people are forgetting is that all Psychic powers require LOS now and Eldar vehicles don't have fire points. This makes Farseers a rather bad fit for a mech force, since at best you can Guide the tank he is in (pointless with Serpents). That means you need to bring something which can survive outside of a transport, which means either Wraithguard or Support Weapons (T7 3+ save with Conceal is a good bunker), which are slow, or Jetbikes, which are fast but then tend to just make you think 'why don't I just run more Bikes'.

I'm tired of people who don't know what they're talking about giving advice to people.

 Shorttime wrote:

Warp Spiders? Yes. Swooping Hawks? No. From what I've seen, Jump troops are too fragile for their points cost, and not just Eldar, either: Marines suffer from the same problems.

When you buy Jump troops, you're paying for mobility, but not getting any more in the way of protection or firepower, and the dice are not your friends when it comes to saves.

Jump troops can work, sure, but you need to be very careful what you throw them at, and you will need to pay attention to what is nearby, because if another unit piles in, they can get creamed, real quick!

Warp Spiders seem to the the Eldar equivalent of Terminators (I think, right?), giving them a much-needed toughness boost. As long as you have a balance between protection and firepower, they should have more staying power than 'Hawks.

Use your objective-takers carefully, as well. From what I've seen, seizing an objective is easy: keeping it is hard, because that squad suddenly becomes the biggest bullet-catcher on the table! (Wait. They were here a minute ago!)

No, Warp spiders are nothing like terminators. They have T3 and a 3+ save. They also can move a great distance, and can run and shoot. They are terrible in combat and are very shooty at short range. So nothing like terminators.

Hawks are fragile. But pretty much anything in the Eldar codex that doesn't start with 'Wraith' is fragile. Hawks are amazing, but no-one ever gives them credit. You pay 16 points each (which is cheap) , for Jump troops, with T3 and a 4+ save. They get a gun thats as good as a stormbolter against T4, and haywire grenades. They also drop a nice cover ignoring template when they deepstrike, and when they deepstrike, they don't scatter.

Also, Marine Jump troops are just as fragile as a Tactical Marine. Which is to say, not very. If you think T4 3+ save is fragile, you're high off your ass.

Belly wrote:
I'm tired of people who don't know what they're talking about giving advice to people.

 Shorttime wrote:

Warp Spiders? Yes. Swooping Hawks? No. From what I've seen, Jump troops are too fragile for their points cost, and not just Eldar, either: Marines suffer from the same problems.

When you buy Jump troops, you're paying for mobility, but not getting any more in the way of protection or firepower, and the dice are not your friends when it comes to saves.

Jump troops can work, sure, but you need to be very careful what you throw them at, and you will need to pay attention to what is nearby, because if another unit piles in, they can get creamed, real quick!

Warp Spiders seem to the the Eldar equivalent of Terminators (I think, right?), giving them a much-needed toughness boost. As long as you have a balance between protection and firepower, they should have more staying power than 'Hawks.

Use your objective-takers carefully, as well. From what I've seen, seizing an objective is easy: keeping it is hard, because that squad suddenly becomes the biggest bullet-catcher on the table! (Wait. They were here a minute ago!)

No, Warp spiders are nothing like terminators. They have T3 and a 3+ save. They also can move a great distance, and can run and shoot. They are terrible in combat and are very shooty at short range. So nothing like terminators.

Hawks are fragile. But pretty much anything in the Eldar codex that doesn't start with 'Wraith' is fragile. Hawks are amazing, but no-one ever gives them credit. You pay 16 points each (which is cheap) , for Jump troops, with T3 and a 4+ save. They get a gun thats as good as a stormbolter against T4, and haywire grenades. They also drop a nice cover ignoring template when they deepstrike, and when they deepstrike, they don't scatter.

Also, Marine Jump troops are just as fragile as a Tactical Marine. Which is to say, not very. If you think T4 3+ save is fragile, you're high off your ass.

While I don't feel Swooping Hawks are bad, just the opposite in fact, I do feel that Warpspiders are superior to them, and would much rather take them.

I think they both have their places in a competitive list. I prefer the Hawks, as I feel they have more utility, and fulfil the anti-infantry role I often struggle with. That said, I havn't run spiders in the new codex yet, but I loved them just as much as hawks in the old codex, so time will tell.

I just get a lil pissed at people bagging Swooping Hawks, as I think they are, and have been one of the hidden gems that no-one takes seriously. They've got so much utility for so cheap, and have won me many many games with the old codex, and now they are so much more reliable (and cheaper).

Belly wrote:
I think they both have their places in a competitive list. I prefer the Hawks, as I feel they have more utility, and fulfil the anti-infantry role I often struggle with. That said, I havn't run spiders in the new codex yet, but I loved them just as much as hawks in the old codex, so time will tell.

I just get a lil pissed at people bagging Swooping Hawks, as I think they are, and have been one of the hidden gems that no-one takes seriously. They've got so much utility for so cheap, and have won me many many games with the old codex, and now they are so much more reliable (and cheaper).

To be fair, they've been the red-headed step child of the Eldar codex for a very long time, it will take time to change that preconception.

How are you struggling with Anti-Infantry though? I've found between Dire Avengers, GJBS and Wave Serpents that Infantry is not a problem at all.

I prefer Warpspiders for their superior movement, and shooting. Their weapon is a great Anti-infantry and Anti-tank. The 3+ helps a ton too.

 Sasori wrote:

To be fair, they've been the red-headed step child of the Eldar codex for a very long time, it will take time to change that preconception.

How are you struggling with Anti-Infantry though? I've found between Dire Avengers, GJBS and Wave Serpents that Infantry is not a problem at all.

I prefer Warpspiders for their superior movement, and shooting. Their weapon is a great Anti-infantry and Anti-tank. The 3+ helps a ton too.

I don't use Avengers, and my jetbikes are for scoring alone. I try to keep them far from 12'' away. The hawks can be a great distraction when they come down and decimate a blob of infantry. I guess with anything Eldar, you have to look at a unit in comparison to what else will be put on the tabletop in the same army.

Thanks for the replies guys I really do appreciate your insight. I have not been able to get my hands on the new Eldar Codex as of yet but I do like alot of what you guys have said, some thoughts:

-I underestimated the point cost of the wave serpents and dire avengers and realize I could not run as many as I would like. I do understand that they are fragile but the same can be said for any unit in the Eldar army, hence why they would be in wave serpents to make them harder to kill. And to be honest the more expensive the better for me as in the long run I would save a bit of $. And finally I love the fluff and the model issue is not one, I will be using Guardian bodies with Dire Avenger heads.

-Taking Wraithguard and running them as troops in Wave Serpents I already know is a very nasty combo that will be a very effective in future lists (already seen it in action once it was not pretty for the ork player). However part of me wants to move away from wraith units as I know that army will be very popular in the future and I want to do something different.

-I might not be able to run the x3 Wraith Knights I wanted but I definitely want to run at least x1, probably x2 at higher point levels. Their S10 cannons alone make them worth taking as I could handle heavy armor with ease with those. Also seeing a list with x3 of those at the last tournament (1650pts.) wreck face and win my friend the tournament I am definitely interested in taking at least one.

-I see your point with the farseer not being able to cast spells from inside a Wave Serpent and I think putting him in a squad of standard jetbikes would work really well as they can move fast and with conceal I could keep them alive quite easily against most shooting

-To be honest I am a HUGE fan of the swooping hawks and am very excited to try those guys out. I do understand the risk of jump infantry (I run an Elysian army currently) and know how to play with them pretty well. I am even considering an army of x30 swooping hawks with the Exarch just because I think it would be a fun and honestly a decently competitive list, howver Mechdar is interesting me more at this point.

-I know Pathfinders would be a very expensive addition to the army and probably not help the list in the long run, I just love the models and the idea of them. But I can see them not helping out with this kind of list.

-I really dont agree with the statement that Crimson Hunters are not good. I watched a game with the Eldar list having x2 of them (one being an Exarch) and they came out and sniped x2 Leman Russ tanks. Yes they are fragile but with their vector dance allowing them to turn twice on top of the re-rolls for armor penetration make them a great glass cannon and worth the risk taking I think in the long run.

With that in mind, here is another rough list that I think would take advantage of everything you guys have stated:

-Farseer on jetbike in a Seer Council or squad of Jetbikes
-x3 or x4 Wave Serpents with Dire Avengers, depends how mech I want to go in terms of number of Wave Serpents with Dire Avengers.
-Either x1or x2 Wraith Knights
-Swooping Hawks or Warp Spiders, I still love the Hawks but Spiders may be better for this list since they hit harder against heavy infantry.
-Thinking of either two or three squads of x3 jetbikes for objective holding and such to allow my Dire Avengers to go and kill stuff.
-Either x1 or x2 Crimson Hunters for anti air defense, its either that or maybe some Rangers behind and Aegis Defence line with a Quad Gun, Farseer would go there then for casting psychic powers.

Powerguy wrote:
.... all Psychic powers require LOS now and Eldar vehicles don't have fire points. This makes Farseers a rather bad fit for a mech force, since at best you can Guide the tank he is in (pointless with Serpents).

Nearly, as a Farseer can get into a Falcon, and Guide would work well there.

 gmaleron wrote:
-I see your point with the farseer not being able to cast spells from inside a Wave Serpent and I think putting him in a squad of standard jetbikes would work really well as they can move fast and with conceal I could keep them alive quite easily against most shooting

Conceal works well with GJB, as long as you get it cast, and they get cover saves of 2+ when they Turbo-Boost.

To be fair, they've been the red-headed step child of the Eldar codex for a very long time, it will take time to change that preconception.

How are you struggling with Anti-Infantry though? I've found between Dire Avengers, GJBS and Wave Serpents that Infantry is not a problem at all.

I prefer Warpspiders for their superior movement, and shooting. Their weapon is a great Anti-infantry and Anti-tank. The 3+ helps a ton too.

Agreed. I think Warp Spiders fill a role better than the Hawks, though I suppose that it is list dependent. I've played with both since the new codex drop, and found the Hawks underwhelming. On paper, the ability to drop the big blast and 15 strength 3 shots, all for 96 points is solid. However, in a six turn game, you are only dropping the blast three times maximum. Furthermore, the loss of even one Hawk means the loss of the blast.

Warp Spiders add strength 6 (7 vs. vehicles) with psuedo rending. Additionally, the ability to use the Warp Jump, Battle Focus (with fleet), and then finally jet pack 2d6 in the assault phase is incredible. That kind of movement goes against the fundamental rules of the game, and allows for new tactical flexibility. If I want some ignore cover blasts, I'll stick with Vaul's Weavers or a Night Spinner.

Well the guys that usually win tournaments (or do really well consistently) were saying that the 4+ cover save on their tau vehicles left them pretty much untouched for a majority of the games. Seeing as Eldar also get the same treatment with the addition of moving faster and having better armoured transports I think its safe to say that they are totally fine.

Just remember to point out to your opponent that "Ignores cover" only applies to wounds not armour pen.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Just remember to point out to your opponent that "Ignores cover" only applies to wounds not armour pen.

QFT - This is an often missed or misread rule.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Just remember to point out to your opponent that "Ignores cover" only applies to wounds not armour pen.

QFT - This is an often missed or misread rule.

Holy crap... I'd never noticed that part.

Mind... blown.

Wait, what? Since when? Khm, khm. Let me get this straight. Vehicles can't have their cover ignored by weapons that ignore cover? Tau markerlights still work, though, right?

And does this mean I can cast conceal on a WS with a Spiritseer inside attached to a unit of WG and get a 2+ cover save on a Serpent? If so...shenanigans!

 Araenion wrote:
Wait, what? Since when? Khm, khm. Let me get this straight. Vehicles can't have their cover ignored by weapons that ignore cover? Tau markerlights still work, though, right?

And does this mean I can cast conceal on a WS with a Spiritseer inside attached to a unit of WG and get a 2+ cover save on a Serpent? If so...shenanigans!

The conceal power only works on the psyker, so it will not confer to the WS.

Also, the whole ignore cover thing makes more sense when you notice that the dark reaper range finder ignores Jink. There may be other weapons out there too. What this does do is hamstring the Waveserpent slightly as AA because it will not ignore the jink save on a diving flyer.

Conceal can only be cast on the casting model, so no 2+ WS cover, as far as I know.

Yeah, as far as I can tell (just looked now), 'ignores cover' only applies to wounds. Seems pretty crazy that it hasn't been FAQ'd yet...
Maybe some of the shooting sections equate wounds with glancing or penetrating hits, so ignores cover still works.