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So the most recent FAQ disallows Wolf Guard Pack Leaders and/or ICthat are joined to Wolf Scouts from utilizing OBEL. However, Bran Redmaw has his special rule, Patient Killers that grants a single Grey Hunter unit the Infiltrate USR or OBEL.

Does a WGPL or IC joined to a Grey Hunter unit that is the designated Grey Hunter unit due to Bran's Patient Hunter rule get to OBEL?

Normal member for all rules purposes, so it would depend on when the rule for Bran kicks in - if it is after you are able to join an IC to the unit, then it sounds like it would be able to OBEL

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Normal member for all rules purposes, so it would depend on when the rule for Bran kicks in - if it is after you are able to join an IC to the unit, then it sounds like it would be able to OBEL

Here is the wording for Patient Killers,

"If Bran Redmaw is leading the army then a single Grey Hunter squad may use the Infiltrate and Behind Enemy Lines special rules exactly as if they were Wolf Scouts."

Which leads me to think if they are to use it exactly as if they were Wolf Scouts the FAQ might apply despite them being Grey Hunters. Another sticking point is that Bran is the source of the rule via Patient Killers, not the Grey Hunter pack, unlike the Wolf Scouts who would be the source of the ability to Outflank and OBEL.

Since it says exactly, it reads fairly clearly that you are subject to the same restrictions.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Since it says exactly, it reads fairly clearly that you are subject to the same restrictions.

Except that the FAQ addresses the WGPL or IC gaining Outflank by virtue of one model of the unit (Wolf Scouts) having the ability. In the case of Bran Redmaw, the WGPL or IC are not gaining Outflank by virtue of one model of the unit (Grey Hunters) having the ability. The WGPL or IC are part of the unit that Bran would be choosing to be Patient Killers and thus are allowed to Infiltrate and OBEL exactly like Wolf Scouts.

Yes but patient killers says they use the rule exactly as if they are Wolf scouts.
How they get the ability isn't important because the rules say they are to be treated the same. The ICs won't get to use infiltrate due to how units deploy, the WG model can infiltrate or outflank as it joins before deployment. It doesn't matter if the WG is part of the squad because he's always part of the squad of Wolf Scouts during that game and still cannot use OBEL.

However the GH squad isn't been given OBEL without any restrictions it is telling you that it is treated just like Wolf Scouts. This may not be what was intended but up until the last faq everyone used OBEL with their attached WG.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes but patient killers says they use the rule exactly as if they are Wolf scouts.
How they get the ability isn't important because the rules say they are to be treated the same. The ICs won't get to use infiltrate due to how units deploy, the WG model can infiltrate or outflank as it joins before deployment.

However the GH squad isn't been given OBEL without any restrictions it is telling you that it is treated just like Wolf Scouts. This may not be what was intended but up until the last faq everyone used OBEL with their attached WG.

And again, I point that the GH squad does not have OBEL as a special rule. The Grey Hunters do not confer OBEL to the WGPL or IC at any time which is what the FAQ addresses when it comes to a WGPL or IC joining a unit of Wolf Scouts. If you designate a GH pack that has a WGPL/IC in the unit as Patient Killers, that GH pack has Infiltrate and OBEL. The fact that it tells you to OBEL just like Wolf Scouts only points you towards the mechanic of OBEL. The FAQ is a separate issue only when a WGPL or IC join a Wolf Scout unit and are conferred the ability by virtue of one model of the Wolf Scout unit having the ability.

I am a little put off by you mentioning that it does not matter how they unit gets OBEL when the FAQ is pretty particular on explaining that mechanic specifically; conferring an ability by virtue of one model in the unit having the ability.

When do you decide that a unit has the patient hunter rule?
I assume it is either at the same time or before the WG joins the unit since it must be before deployment begins. So the GH squad will have it at the same time the WG joins and it IS granting it to the WG.

Again where the source of the rule is doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter that GH don't normally have OBEL, there is a unit that will have it when you choose to use it with redmaw. You treat it exactly as a unit that has the rule which has a specific restriction.
The WGPL is treated as part of the unit he joins IN EVERY CASE, since OBEL behaves the same way in both cases and is treated the same way in both cases you apply the restriction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you'd read my post in both cases the squads have the rule and the WG joins a unit and gets it from them because you split them immediately before deployment. You make these nominations on special rules before deployment when it comes to changing how units deploy. But if you can show that the choice is made after deployment or during it I'll back down.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
When do you decide that a unit has the patient hunter rule?
I assume it is either at the same time or before the WG joins the unit since it must be before deployment begins. So the GH squad will have it at the same time the WG joins and it IS granting it to the WG.

Again where the source of the rule is doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter that GH don't normally have OBEL, there is a unit that will have it when you choose to use it with redmaw. You treat it exactly as a unit that has the rule which has a specific restriction.
The WGPL is treated as part of the unit he joins IN EVERY CASE, since OBEL behaves the same way in both cases and is treated the same way in both cases you apply the restriction.

See above.

The FAQ specifically points out the mechanic of conferring an ability by virtue of one member of the unit having the ability. I find it odd that you completely ignore this and try to extend the conditions of the FAQ to something that has nothing to do it with conferring an ability. The entire FAQ question is directed at that process and that process alone.

And are you trying to exclude the WGPL or IC from not being part of the GH unit when Bran designates the GH pack to be Patient Killers? The rule is quoted above without any reference to a timeline. So if you place a GH pack with an attached IC and WGPL into Reserves and tell your opponent that they are Patient Killers, they that GH pack now has Infiltrate and OBEL. That would mean that if you were to look at the members of that unit, they would include the Infiltrate USR and OBEL under their Special Rules. Nothing is conferred by virtue of being part of the GH pack, the GH is pack has the special rules Infiltrate and OBEL.

Ok lets try this again.
A) a squad of GH gets OBEL and infiltrate.
B) immediately before deployment a WG can join the unit
C) an IC can join the unit as per the normal rules.

When A happens is very important here. If A happens before B should happen then you are in the same situation as per Wolf Scouts in every way and are told to treat it as such. So ICs and WG cannot gain the benefit as per the FAQ restriction

IF A happens at the same time as B then you as the controlling player can choose the order or roll for it if your opponent is being a dick.
In that case you can OBEL the WG but still cannot use the IC as it falls to the same restriction.

Unless A happens at a point after the squad is held in reserve the IC cannot gain the benefit of OBEL. As until then it is the squad granting it to the IC and we are told in the FAQ how that happens.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok lets try this again.
A) a squad of GH gets OBEL and infiltrate.
B) immediately before deployment a WG can join the unit
C) an IC can join the unit as per the normal rules.

When A happens is very important here. If A happens before B should happen then you are in the same situation as per Wolf Scouts in every way and are told to treat it as such. So ICs and WG cannot gain the benefit as per the FAQ restriction

IF A happens at the same time as B then you as the controlling player can choose the order or roll for it if your opponent is being a dick.
In that case you can OBEL the WG but still cannot use the IC as it falls to the same restriction.

Unless A happens at a point after the squad is held in reserve the IC cannot gain the benefit of OBEL. As until then it is the squad granting it to the IC and we are told in the FAQ how that happens.

And I have shown you the rule portion of Patient Killers. I will quote the entire text here,

"Bran's preferred tactics are to use some of his Grey Hunters to lie in wait, often behind enemy lines, to strike after the foe is already weakened by battle. If Bran is leading the army then a single Grey Hunter squad may use the Infiltrate and Behind Enemy Lines special rules exactly as if they were Wolf Scouts."

There is no timeline.

So the choice is up to you as controlling player to when Patient Killers kicks in?

Funny thing is there is always a timeline in 40k. It is in that section that tells you how to play a game. How old rules interact with 6th ed and when they are applied usually requires an FAQ. Similar to how certain models can join units before deployment for example.

I've not played redmaw in 6th but since there hasn't been an FAQ to change anything about that book since february last year, you'll be going cap in hand to a TO to get a judgement on the rule as to when it is applied and if you can avoid being subject to the same restrictions as wolf scouts.

The rules are very clear. When you take Bran Redmaw, the single Grey Hunter pack gains Infiltrate and OBEL. So they have it when you make your list. So they're already working exactly like Wolf Scouts, even without the added clarification that they use the abilities exactly like Wolf Scouts.

So if you attach a WGPL or IC to them, they lose the opportunity to make use of OBEL. They can still Outflank or Infiltrate however.

Not sure why there is any argument otherwise outside of "wishing it were true".

cowmonaut wrote:
The rules are very clear. When you take Bran Redmaw, the single Grey Hunter pack gains Infiltrate and OBEL. So they have it when you make your list. So they're already working exactly like Wolf Scouts, even without the added clarification that they use the abilities exactly like Wolf Scouts.

So if you attach a WGPL or IC to them, they lose the opportunity to make use of OBEL. They can still Outflank or Infiltrate however.

Not sure why there is any argument otherwise outside of "wishing it were true".

A single Grey Hunter pack uses the Infiltrate and OBEL special rules. You have no idea which Grey Hunter pack that is until you designate it as being the Patient Killers. As you will not be designating this until after WGPL or IC are joined to the GH pack, the GH pack as it is with WGPL or IC will use the Infiltrate and OBEL rules. Nothing is being conferred to the WGPL or IC by a model of the GH pack having the ability which is what the FAQ addresses.

Eh, Tyr. When do you designate the unit? It's after deployment? If so how do you know?

The FAQ does matter for the IC as the IC is always getting it from the unit. Since the rules is given to the GH squad not GH squad and any attached ICs.

Well from other conversations I have had on this very forum regarding IC attached to units, the unit is just the unit, not the unit plus an IC.

So a GH unit with an IC is not;

GH + IC.

it is;

GH unit.

So when Bran chooses whichever GH unit to be his Patient Killers, if there is a WGPL and and IC in that GH unit, they also become Patient Killers and thus have Infiltrate and OBEL.

I will check at home as to when you designate, but BR posted the rule and it shows no specific time present. So it looks like you could designate the GH unit after both the WGPL and IC have joined thus making them Patient Killers altogether.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BR, post this on the B&C.

Again that assumption only works on the sufferance of your opponent or TO as there is no RAW about when you designate.

The IC doesn't get the rule, the GH squad gets the rule and the IC can make use of it within the limits set out by how OBEL and infiltrate works for wolf scouts.

This is no different from gaining D3 units that can infiltrate in the chaos codex.

Exc ept the rules for ICs joining states they are normal members of the unit for ALL rules purposes

IS this a rules purpose?

The problem is it doesn't say when you nominate the unit. HIWPI (and how I would rule it in a Tournament), the decision is made when you build your army list. Thus, when the decision is made, the IC is not a member of the unit.

Except you then lose a lot of tactical flexibilty - for exqample there are times you would want a double flamer squad infiltrating / outflanking, and other times melta. Outwith the query of attaching ICs I do not see such a restriction as "fair"

I agree with you Nos that IMHO it is not during list building that it would be chosen.

However I don't see fairness in choosing a GH squad put in reserve with 4 attached ICs and a WG in a crusader after you've put them in reserves to gain OBEL and apply it to the blob. Or picking which of the reserved GH squads get it when you roll for roll for them to enter play.

I think consistency between Wolf Scouts and this would be fair, but again it's cap in hand to the TO.

I'm not sure what your point is about ICs, if the rules is given to or intrinsic to the squad before the IC is attached then the IC is just getting the use of it as per the normal rules of infiltrating units outflanking with an IC. If the squad gets the rules when the IC is attached I agree fully he gets them too. Was my summary of the effect of nominating the GH squad above at different times not correct?

You stated the IC deosnt get the rule; except the IC DOES get the rule, as the whole unit gets it - Iff the IC joins before nomination

Sorry you are correct, but I feel it's an absurdity to claim you can choose the GH squad after deployment so I'm not going to deal with that option. So the IC never gets the rule.

Yet you choose WGPL at deployment, so I dontt hink it is that absurd

Before deployment is when WG are split out as per the FAQ. Otherwise they'd never get to make use of infiltrate.

Ah true, so again splitting at the same time as assigning the GH unit makes sense.

I still think that it happens before the WG split as the FAQ says immediately before deployment for the WG but OBEL isn't all that great these days when you can re-roll outflank with SW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exc ept the rules for ICs joining states they are normal members of the unit for ALL rules purposes

IS this a rules purpose?

Look, its simple. If you want to OBEL with your Grey Hunter pack, then minimally they have to benefit from Patient Hunters before Deployment. Otherwise you don't even have the option of holding them in Reserve to OBEL. The Wolf Guard can split off during Deployment to lead the various Packs, and the ICs obviously also join units during Deployment.

I'll concede I'm wrong on you picking the Grey Hunter Pack when you pick the Army List, but you still have to pick it prior to Deployment. That's the only way the rule can even work. So from a mechanism stand point, this already is working exactly like with Wolf Scouts, which they then go on to emphasis additionally anyways.

Wolf Scouts can not OBEL with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or IC attached. Even if the IC has Saga of the Hunter. The Grey Hunters using OBEL exactly like Wolf Scouts are thus completely unable to OBEL with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or IC attached.


Fun thought by the way: So Bran Redmaw can make a Grey Hunter Pack have Infiltrate, which means they can Outflank normally. ICs can join an Outflanking Infiltrator unit (only one model needs to be able to Outflank, right?). Bran has Saga of the Hunter himself, and as we know from the Codex you can take the same Saga on a non-Special Character that is on a Special Character.

So you can have 2 ICs providing Outflank to two separate units, and have a third unit Outflanking all on top of any Wolf Scouts. All with Acute Senses. And you can Outflank with your Transports. I find this a most amusing prospect.

cowmonaut wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exc ept the rules for ICs joining states they are normal members of the unit for ALL rules purposes

IS this a rules purpose?

Look, its simple. If you want to OBEL with your Grey Hunter pack, then minimally they have to benefit from Patient Hunters before Deployment. Otherwise you don't even have the option of holding them in Reserve to OBEL. The Wolf Guard can split off during Deployment to lead the various Packs, and the ICs obviously also join units during Deployment.

I'll concede I'm wrong on you picking the Grey Hunter Pack when you pick the Army List, but you still have to pick it prior to Deployment. That's the only way the rule can even work. So from a mechanism stand point, this already is working exactly like with Wolf Scouts, which they then go on to emphasis additionally anyways.

Wolf Scouts can not OBEL with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or IC attached. Even if the IC has Saga of the Hunter. The Grey Hunters using OBEL exactly like Wolf Scouts are thus completely unable to OBEL with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or IC attached.


Fun thought by the way: So Bran Redmaw can make a Grey Hunter Pack have Infiltrate, which means they can Outflank normally. ICs can join an Outflanking Infiltrator unit (only one model needs to be able to Outflank, right?). Bran has Saga of the Hunter himself, and as we know from the Codex you can take the same Saga on a non-Special Character that is on a Special Character.

So you can have 2 ICs providing Outflank to two separate units, and have a third unit Outflanking all on top of any Wolf Scouts. All with Acute Senses. And you can Outflank with your Transports. I find this a most amusing prospect.

You don't need Patient Killers to place a unit in Reserve. Only after placing a unit in Reserves is it possible to then say that that unit can Outflank because you can only Outflank if you were placed in Reserves. So if I place a Grey Hunter unit with a WGPL and IC in Reserves and then tell my opponent they are Patient Killers, they will enter play via Outflank using OBEL.

Bran can only Outflank with a unit of Fenrisan Wolves. So it would be a Grey Hunter unit with an IC with Saga of the Hunter, a GH unit designated as Patient Killers, and then Bran with a unit of Fenrisian Wolves.

Eh, you have to declare if you're outflanking when placing in reserves, so... if you don't declare before placing the unit in reserves you don't get to use it.

Hence it must be before deployment of the unit and you cannot ever get an IC getting the benefit of OBEL as the IC is never part of the unit when the unit gets the rule and as such you are subject to the same restriction as WG and ICs.