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Except that is not the rule.

"During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy."

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

Both events are during deployment so your premise that you have to declare which units are Outflanking before placing them in Reserves is wrong.

Since a unit cannot Outflank unless it has been placed in Reserves, it stands to reason that during deployment, you place a unit in Reserves and then declare which of those units in Reserve are going to be using Outflank.

1. During deployment place units in Reserve.
2. Declare which Grey Hunter unit in Reserves has Patient Killers.
3. Declare that that GH unit will be Outflanking and when it does, it will OBEL.

This makes sense as you need to be in Reserves to Outflank, but you do not need to be able to Outflank to be placed in Reserves. Not only does it make sense, but it follows the rules as well for two events that are happening simultaneous.

You need to declare the unit has OBEL, yes or no?
You must declare you are outflanking when reserving a unit to make use of outflank, yes or no?
You must declare a unit has an optional rule before you make use of it, yes or no?

It's not that you have to declare outflanking before placing them in reserves it is that you must declare when placing in reserves, otherwise you're not following the rules. You do need to be in reserves to outflank but the rules says you have to declare that a unit is going to outflank during deployment. Is after a unit is placed in reserves during deployment?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Eh, you have to declare if you're outflanking when placing in reserves, so... if you don't declare before placing the unit in reserves you don't get to use it.

Hence it must be before deployment of the unit and you cannot ever get an IC getting the benefit of OBEL as the IC is never part of the unit when the unit gets the rule and as such you are subject to the same restriction as WG and ICs.

I checked both rules and do not see where you are getting the above emboldened rule. If they are as Tyr quoted then they are a simultaneous event with being placed in Reserves before being able to say they can Outflank making more sense then declaring Outflank before even being placed in Reserves.


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 liturgies of blood wrote:
You need to declare the unit has OBEL, yes or no? Not from what I can remember, but I am at work without my codex. OBEL only changes how you treat the rolls for Outflanking.
You must declare you are outflanking when reserving a unit to make use of outflank, yes or no? The events are done at the same time. One is quoted as being, "During deployment," and the other is "When deploying..".
You must declare a unit has an optional rule before you make use of it, yes or no? Yes.

It's not that you have to declare outflanking before placing them in reserves it is that you must declare when placing in reserves, otherwise you're not following the rules. You do need to be in reserves to outflank but the rules says you have to declare that a unit is going to outflank during deployment. Is after a unit is placed in reserves during deployment?

I am pointing out that because there is no timeline on Patient Killers that I can place a unit in Reserve, say that that unit is Patient Killers, and then declare that they will be Outflanking because it is still being done during deployment. And as I keep pointing out, declaring Outflank and placing in Reserves is a simultaneous event and with no timeline on Patient Killers, I am able to designate a GH unit at that time.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Bran can only Outflank with a unit of Fenrisan Wolves. So it would be a Grey Hunter unit with an IC with Saga of the Hunter, a GH unit designated as Patient Killers, and then Bran with a unit of Fenrisian Wolves.

I missed the part of his rules where he can't actually join non Fenrisian Wolves units. Thought he was just an IC. I need to get an actual copy of his rules instead of just what I'm hearing. So other than the Fenrisian Wolves, that's not at all different than what I said. I never said that you "need Patient Killers to place a unit in Reserve". But you do need it to allow the unit to Outflank. Here's why:

RESERVES (BRB p.124)
A. When deploying you can choose not to deploy up to half of your units and keep them as Reserves.
B. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to his opponent:
1. Specify to the opponent if any of his IC left in Reserve are joining a unit.
2. Specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles

OUTFLANK (BRB p.40)
A. During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
B. When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player...
C. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.

Review the above. Patient Hunters would have to be given to a Grey Hunter Pack during Deployment. During Deployment is when you either:
A) Deploy a unit normally
B) Declare Reserves
C) Declare Outflankers
D) Declare Infiltrators

These all happen simultaneously and RAW allows for you to decide on a per unit basis. By that I mean you can deploy a Long Fang Pack, then say a Wolf Scout unit is Infiltrating, then say you are holding your Rune Priest and Grey Hunters in Reserve and having the Rune Priest join the Grey Hunters and embarking the unit on a Drop Pod, then go back to deploying another Long Fang Squad or something.

If your Grey Hunter Pack is already in Reserve, they can't Outflank. Yes, Outflanking is a special type of Reserve. But if you declare a unit is being held in Reserve, even if they have the Outflank USR, then you have just declared they are not Outflanking and will enter Reserves normally.

Deep Strike are written differently than for Outflank though they are similar mechanics. With Deep Strike, the text states that you tell your opponent that the unit with the Deep Strike USR is going to enter play via Deep Strike when you declare them as a Reserve. Outflanking is instead declared specifically as "Outflanking" instead of "Reserve". Minor quibble IMO but I've run into that Special Someone at the FLGS before that gets stuck on that kind of thing.

So Patient Hunters needs to happen before you declare if a given Grey Hunter Pack is in Reserve or not, if that is the specific Pack you want to have Patient Hunters.

Your conclusion that stating "Reserves" disallows them from Outflank is NOT supported by the rules above.

Reserves organisation includes Outflank, DS, etc. So you declare the unit is going into REserves - PAUSE, assign PH - explain that they will use the Outflank rule.

Tyr already posted up the rules and your listed breakdowns do not follow it.

You place a unit in Reserves and declare that they will be Outflanking. A unit cannot Outflank if it is not in Reserves. Your idea that I cannot place a unit in Reserves and then declare that it will be Outflanking is completely unsupported by the rules. To then note that there is no timeline with Patient Hunters, you have no restrictions on designating a GH unit in the time after placing them in Reserves and then declaring they will Outflank.









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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your conclusion that stating "Reserves" disallows them from Outflank is NOT supported by the rules above.

Reserves organisation includes Outflank, DS, etc. So you declare the unit is going into REserves - PAUSE, assign PH - explain that they will use the Outflank rule.

Agree with my nemesis as above.

Yeah, damn. I'm agreeing with BR.

The sign of the true apocalypse.

First let me get this out of the way: Tyr Grimblood and nosferatu1001 do not disagree with the end result. So this argument is purely semantics:

Brother Ramses wrote:Tyr already posted up the rules and your listed breakdowns do not follow it.

That's because Tyr isn't 100% correct in the RAW for Outflank and Reserves. He's 99% right in the execution and 100% right in the end result.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your conclusion that stating "Reserves" disallows them from Outflank is NOT supported by the rules above.

It is by the actual text in the BRB that I referenced here. Perhaps I should have quoted them verbatim.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You place a unit in Reserves and declare that they will be Outflanking.

That's not how it works, strictly RAW. It is what happens in effect.

Deep Strike (BRB p.36) : When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Outflank (BRB p.40) : During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
Reserves (BRB p.124) : When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

As you can see, the rules for Outflank say you declare you are going to "Outflan"k the unit and not "Reserve" the unit. The rest of the Outflank rule then goes on to describe how the unit enters play from Reserve and we of course infer from that that the unit is in Reserve when it Outflanks. The rule doesn't actually explicitly say its going into Reserve, but its clear that's where the end up sitting. What causes confusion I think is that Deep Strike is a USR that works along very similar lines as Outflank. But they don't work exactly the same way when you look at the text word for word.

So if you are being an anal rules lawyer, which I feel you must be when working out when things must happen in the rules if you want to be accurate, you end up with what I said previously. During Deployment you take a unit and do one of 5 things:

1. Set it up on the table.
2. Declare its going into Reserve.
3. Declare its going into Deep Strike Reserve.
4. Declare its going to Outflank.
5 Declare its going to Infiltrate.

Items 2-4 are related, but not the same. if you declare a unit is going to Reserve, that means its going to be off the board and coming on from your board edge on Turn 2 or later.


Like I said before, that's only if you want to be anal about it. The end result is the same, a unit of Grey Hunters gets to Outflank. In a friendly game, hell probably in a tournament, I'd let it slide as long as the opponent was clear about which unit is going to Outflank.


TL;DR : But if you really want to know when a GH unit is "technically" supposed to get Patient Hunters, it has to be when you Deploy that unit, which is when you either put it on the table or declare what it is doing.

"Outflank (BRB p.40) : During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy. "
No, this rule does not say what you think it is saying.

You are saying it explicitly excludes you being in reserve in order to Outflank, yet it states nothing of the sort

You are told to tell the oppon ent the organisation of your reserves - which includes which units are DS, Outflanking, etc. Thus, a model is in Reserves BEFORE you are able to state it is outflanking.

Secondly, you only have 2 places you can be when deploying - On the board or In Reserves. So if you claim you can Outflank without being place in Reserves first, please explain WHERE YOU ARE when place them Outflanking - it is in reserves or it isnt. So where is it?

So, to sum up: You are IN RESERVES beforfe you can Outflank, as Outflank is an organisxation of reserves, Reserves is the only place you CAN be if you are not on the board during deployment, and nothing in the Outflank rule you keep quotiung states you are NOT in reserves

Thus you CAN declare a unt is in Reserves; declare PH, declare the unit is now Outflanking.

You have no rules against this, and we have supprot for it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Outflank (BRB p.40) : During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy. "
No, this rule does not say what you think it is saying.

You are saying it explicitly excludes you being in reserve in order to Outflank, yet it states nothing of the sort

You are not getting what I am saying. One last try then I give up trying to convince you:

"Reserve" is an object. It is its own term with its own meaning in the game. Likewise with "Outflank". "Outflanking" units are put in "Reserve", but not all "Reserve" units "Outflank". Or to put another way, All Apples (Outflankers) are Fruits (Reserves) but not all Fruits are Apples.

If you have a unit with the Outflank USR in Reserve the rules do not mandate that you actually Outflank them. You can choose to put them in "normal" Reserve. The only way to do that is to declare "I'm putting these guys in Reserve". The only way to Outflank is to declare "these guys are going to Outflank".

Because English is a flexible language, you can say "I'm putting these guys in Reserve to Outflank" or "I'm putting these guys in Reserve and they are going to Outflank" and it conveys the same message. But if you are following the strict RAW, you just have to say "These guys will Outflank". Following a strict RAW interpretation, if you declare "These guys are going into Reserve." and do not elaborate further, then they are in just plain old Reserve. You already "deployed" them, you can't go back and change it unless your opponent is nice (and I can think of some that wouldn't be).

Likewise for Deep Strike. If you have a unit of Terminators and you declare you are putting them in Reserve but don't state you are Deep Striking them, then they have to walk on the board.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are told to tell the oppon ent the organisation of your reserves - which includes which units are DS, Outflanking, etc. Thus, a model is in Reserves BEFORE you are able to state it is outflanking.

You are jumping to conclusions instead of just reading what is written down on the paper. The exact text for Outflank does not say "Place a unit in Reserve then declare if it is Outflanking or not". It says to declare if the unit is "Outflanking".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Secondly, you only have 2 places you can be when deploying - On the board or In Reserves. So if you claim you can Outflank without being place in Reserves first, please explain WHERE YOU ARE when place them Outflanking - it is in reserves or it isnt. So where is it?

yes, as part of the Outflank mechanism the unit will enter Reserve. But the rules don't state "Place this unit in Reserve then declare it is Outflanking" like they do for Deep Strike. They simply state "declare this unit is Outflanking".

Like I said before, during deployment and by RAW you have 5 potential options for any given unit. The rules separate out Deep Strike and Outflank from normal Reserve. Nothing in the rules prohibit a unit with the option to Deep Strike or Outflank to enter normal Reserves. If you declare a unit is going into Reserve without stating that it is going to Outflank or Deep Strike at the same time, then you just declared your unit has entered "normal" Reserve instead of the so-called (by Games Workshop!) "Deep Strike" Reserve and "Outflank" Reserve.

So with Patient Hunters, you would have to give a given Grey Hunter Pack the bonuses from Patient Hunters at the same time you are deploying them (that is, declaring if they are going to Reserve or Outflank or set them up normally). If you take a Grey Hunter Pack and then declare it is in Reserve, and then move on and deploy another unit, you cannot then go back to that first unit you've already technically deployed and say they are going to Outflank now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have no rules against this, and we have supprot for it.

No. We both are using the exact same text to argue different things. The end effect is the same and it isn't an actual a problem 99% of the time so its not that big a deal. But I know I'm 100% right in this. I don't want the thread to death spiral now so if you still disagree, by all means say so. But I'll be dropping it here unless you want to wrastle via PM.


Again, this is likely a purely academic argument since I don't know many players, even the WAAC types, that would have a problem with you saying "Oh yea these guys are Outflanking due to Patient Hunters sorry. Its why they got put in Reserve" or something along those lines. But it is technically the correct way the rules would flow. And technically correct is the best kind of correct!

Reserves is a container units get put into; while in there they are assigned a further qualifier (DS, Outflank, OBEL, etc) but it is still one container

The part you miss is that this assignment is the organisation you are required to tell your opponent; the statement "these guys are outflanking" is not in and of itself sufficient. It has to be "this unit in reserves choices to arrive using the outflank rule"

Because you have to declare the organisation as such, you can indeed put units in reserve, THEN declare they are Outflanking - in fact that is what you are *required* to do, as Outflank is a method of arriving from reserves. You cannot declare intention to Outflank until the unit is already in Reserves

You are most certainly not 100% right on this, as you have created a rule that does not exist in the text. Your explanation is fine, your premise is not. This is not a lack of understanding on my part, but a misunderstanding of the rules on yours.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Reserves is a container units get put into; while in there they are assigned a further qualifier (DS, Outflank, OBEL, etc) but it is still one container

The part you miss is that this assignment is the organisation you are required to tell your opponent; the statement "these guys are outflanking" is not in and of itself sufficient. It has to be "this unit in reserves choices to arrive using the outflank rule"

Because you have to declare the organisation as such, you can indeed put units in reserve, THEN declare they are Outflanking - in fact that is what you are *required* to do, as Outflank is a method of arriving from reserves. You cannot declare intention to Outflank until the unit is already in Reserves

You are most certainly not 100% right on this, as you have created a rule that does not exist in the text. Your explanation is fine, your premise is not. This is not a lack of understanding on my part, but a misunderstanding of the rules on yours.

Again agreement.

I am at work yet again (yea tough life), but in the rulebook under arriving from Reserves, it tells you that units arriving by Deepstrike and Outflank follow their own rules on the specific pages their rules are present. As this is referenced under, "Arriving from Reserves", again you see that units are placed into Reserves before you declare they are going to Outflank. The whole container analogy is pretty spot on in this case.

Cow, you keep posting up a listed sequence of events and then declare an absolute that you must designate Patient Killers before deployment, except you continue to disregard that the rules do not support declaration of Outflank before placing in Reserves. There is no time frame given for either so your continued insistence that it does has zero rules support. The stance that you can place in Reserves and then declare Outflank has two points against you,

1. It does not buck the RAW as written because neither have priority over the other per the RAW
2. It is the logical sequence of events as you cannot Outflank unless you were placed in Reserves.

Now granted in this game, sometimes the RAW is flat out illogical so that is not a tried and true method of arguing a point. However, in this case it also does not buck the RAW of the rule unlike your argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Reserves is a container units get put into; while in there they are assigned a further qualifier (DS, Outflank, OBEL, etc) but it is still one container

What is the RAW definition of Deep Strike Reserve vs Reserve? Its a term in the rulebook, in the Deep Strike rules, so its not something I'm just making up.

Effectively it would be a sub-container of the main container. Like a sectioned bucket. All Reserves go into the Reserve bucket, but there are 3 different sections where units sit in and depending on which section they are in they enter play from Reserve differently.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The part you miss is that this assignment is the organisation you are required to tell your opponent; the statement "these guys are outflanking" is not in and of itself sufficient.

It is all you are required to state, RAW. By definition, that makes it sufficient.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because you have to declare the organisation as such, you can indeed put units in reserve, THEN declare they are Outflanking - in fact that is what you are *required* to do, as Outflank is a method of arriving from reserves. You cannot declare intention to Outflank until the unit is already in Reserves

Again, you seem to be making a leap here. The RAW for Outflank specifically tell you that you "declare that a unit with one or more models with this special rule are attempting to Outflank." Full. Stop. If the unit is Outflanking, its implicitly in Reserve due to the way the rules for Outflanking work, but you don't have to put it in the Reserve bucket first.

Brother Ramses wrote:Cow, you keep posting up a listed sequence of events and then declare an absolute that you must designate Patient Killers before deployment, except you continue to disregard that the rules do not support declaration of Outflank before placing in Reserves

And that is where you guys are wrong. I think the confusion comes down to the word Reserve being used to describe two things: A) The overall reserve "bucket" and B) The "normal" reserve "section" of the bucket.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are most certainly not 100% right on this, as you have created a rule that does not exist in the text. Your explanation is fine, your premise is not. This is not a lack of understanding on my part, but a misunderstanding of the rules on yours.

Normally I tend to agree with your rule assessments but not this time. If you tell your opponent "This guy is going into Reserve", and make no other clarifying statements, and then go on to deploy another unit, you just told your opponent that you are placing that unit in "normal" Reserve. You can't (unless the opponent is nice) then go back and say its Outflanking, under a strict interpretation of RAW.

No matter if you believe my argument, even by your own argument you would have to give Patient Hunters to the Grey Hunter pack using it during deployment. The problem I have is with the idea that you can say "Okay these two Grey Hunter Packs are in Reserve" then go deploy the rest of your army, then come back to the first two units and declare one of them is Outflanking due to Patient Hunter. That is against the rules. You already deployed those two units and effectively declared they are in "normal" Reserve. If you want to Outflank with a Grey Hunter Pack using Patient Hunter, then you need to give the unit Patient Hunter when you deploy it.


Anyways, if you still aren't getting what I'm saying well,then as I said I'll drop the matter. It really is inconsequential 99% of the time and wouldn't matter in a friendly game. Since this is going to just circle back and forth with no ground budging there is no use trying to argue further. Probably shouldn't even post this reply honestly, but I dislike being misunderstood. Particularly if its a failing on my part to explain myself.

Cow you are under the impression that I am arguing that you must place a unit in Reserves before declaring Outflank and in this you are completely wrong.

Both are labeled as being done during deployment with neither taking priority over the other. That is what allows you to place a unit in Reserve and then declare that they will be Outflanking. Again, I am not saying you MUST, but that you can. This is what allows you to designate a unit you have placed in Reserves as being Patient Killers and declaring that said unit will be Outflanking. This sequence of events is still taking place under the umbrella of "deployment" which both rules as written to be occurring.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Cow you are under the impression that I am arguing that you must place a unit in Reserves before declaring Outflank and in this you are completely wrong.

I'm confused. Then why are you arguing with me? The way I see it it boils down to this:

Argument One (what I'm arguing) :
- You can declare you are putting a unit into Reserve and Outflanking, but are only technically required to state the unit is Outflanking.
- You cannot declare a unit is in Reserve, then move on and deploy other units, and then come back to the first unit and say it is Outflanking.

Argument Two (what nosferatu1001 and I thought you were arguing) :
- You can declare you are putting a unit into Reserve and Outflanking, and are required to state the part about the unit being in Reserve.
- You can declare a unit is in Reserve, then move on and deploy other units, and then come back to the first unit and say it is Outflanking.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Both are labeled as being done during deployment with neither taking priority over the other.

I'm not saying you have to declare Outflank before Reserve or vice-versa. I'm saying that a declaration of "this unit is in Reserve" is different than "this unit is Outflanking" even though both actions place your unit into Reserve.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
That is what allows you to place a unit in Reserve and then declare that they will be Outflanking.

My entire point is if you don't declare a unit is Outflanking when you tell the opponent it is being put in Reserve and then move on to deploy the rest of your forces, you can't retroactively go back to a unit you placed in Reserve and declare it is Outflanking. If you make use of Deep Strike or Outflank, you have to declare that to your opponent when you decide to Reserve the unit. The declaration is a simultaneous action.

How is it retroactively going back?

You are still deploying correct? The rule for Outflank does not say that it is the first thing you do during deployment is declare. The rule for Reserves does not say the first thing you do during deployment is place units in Reserve.

"I am placing this GH with attached IC and WGPL unit in Reserves. They are my Patient Killers. They will be Outflanking."

That is it. One sentence during deployment that places the unit in Reserve, designates them as Patient Killers, and declares that they will be Outflanking all in one go.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
The rule for Outflank does not say that it is the first thing you do during deployment is declare. The rule for Reserves does not say the first thing you do during deployment is place units in Reserve.

I never said it did! You are putting words in my mouth now, albeit unintentionally. Read what I said again.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
One sentence during deployment that places the unit in Reserve, designates them as Patient Killers, and declares that they will be Outflanking all in one go.

Agreed! I'm not arguing that. I'm saying in a hypothetical situation that if you did not state a unit was Outflanking you cannot go back later and state that the unit actually is Outflanking, even if its still the Deployment Step, according to RAW.

I'm also saying, separately, that you don't have to explicitly say "I'm putting this unit in Reserve" if you explicitly say "This unit is going to Outflank".

Yet you can, as that is part of explaining the organisation of deployment. Hell you can deploy a unit, then deide you dont want it on the table and put it in reserves. NOthing is fixed, despite your claims otherwise