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Chaos are going to be heavily out numbered by the looks of things. Luckily normal chaos marines rival normal marines at an average of 1:2

Actually, I'd say the average spiky emo marine is less skilled, experienced, nad disciplined than the average loyalist. You're thinking of the surviving legionnaires probably, who aren't the average chaos marine.

4 Chapters, huh?
Not planning to play Space Marines, but in addition to the Dark Angels, I think Blood Ravens (as carryover from Dawn of War) and Black Templars (as carryover from the last attempt at a 40k MMO) would be cool.
For the 4th Chapter, I'm torn. Personally, I'd like to see one of the lesser known ones or even a Chapter that you guys have made up yourselves - but Ultramarines are almost a must-have, and the Space Wolves are extremely popular amongst Marine fans.

If the "4 Chapters" thing applies to CSM as well, I would suggest having 1 Legion for each of the 4 Chaos Gods. Black Legion, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons?

I wonder how they're going to implement pyskers with BT's in the game. I wouldn't mind having the BT's be a sort of Easter Egg experience, like having the site of an old crusade in the middle of the Tyrannid Horde. I love em to death those BT's, but unfortunately they just don't play nice with other Imperials.

@Melissa depends on the traitor chapter and warrior, loyalists are as thin blooded as traitors.
But in terms of Legionnaires who fought in the great crusade and in the heresy there are few that can match them especially the new thin bloods

@Lynata Though I am a huge fan of Legions devoted to a particular Chaos Patron I don't know if this would work in terms of gameplay. (you forgot the world eaters as well) Due simply because if someone belonged to The Emperor's Children and was a bezerker it wouldn't go with the canon.

it should be Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Black Legion, Word Bearers since you'd be able to play as a sonic marine/thousand son/bezerker/plague marine in each of these factions without ruining the immersion...

But Ifepy the Night Lords look down upon those who associate themselves with the entities of the warp

Yes they do... However as Uzas of X Company said when questioned about his devotion to khorne, "I never worshiper anything, chaos is a tool to use when needed"

There's your answer.

Though I would love to see those other legions in the game

Please be Templar, please be Templar, please be Templar....

 The Dark Apostle wrote:
Chaos are going to be heavily out numbered by the looks of things. Luckily normal chaos marines rival normal marines at an average of 1:2

In Age of Reckoning, Chaos had always more players, because your usual "Emo gamer kid" wants to look badass with spikes and stuff, so i think this time it wont be much more different.


i would say it's gonna be by player numbers:

Chaos
Space Marines
Orks
Eldar

(not counting F2P folks into orks)

Ifepy wrote:you forgot the world eaters as well

Forgotten? I just named what I thought would be one popular example per Chaos God. I know there are many more, but the same goes for the Space Marines.

Ifepy wrote:simply because if someone belonged to The Emperor's Children and was a bezerker it wouldn't go with the canon

So make Berserkers unavailable for everyone.
It wasn't a problem in Dawn of War or the Space Marine multiplayer - I don't see why it should be different for Eternal War. At least this way, you'll cover more Chaos fans (god affiliation), I think.

Been away, was there any new substantial info apart from learning there will be more chapters for SM and something special coming this/next week?

Nope. Nothing really new.

Okey dokey, cheers.

3 chapters you need, word bearers, death guard, night lords, then the iron warriors.

I'm curious how the 'nid Shadow in the Warp is going to be portrayed, lol. Every Psyker is going to hurt when they cast...

Those aren't Chapters, Apostle, They are Legions.

Included Chapters and Legions should be determined on how different the Chapter/Legion operate and conduct war/day to day minutia, not what color their armor is.

The Black Legion incorporates all aspects of any Chaos Legion. They don't discriminate on the basis of religion, they'll accept anyone into their group. Including warbands from other legions is little more than "Hey my armor is a different color than yours". Most of the differences between Legions with the exception of the 4 Legions who dedicate themselves to only 1 of the 4 powers are role play. Word Bearers are more religious than other Legions, Night Lords don't worship Chaos as much as other Legions, Iron Warriors use siege warfare more often.

The same with Loyalist Chapters.

Chaos should be represented by Black Legion - their lore includes any and all different types of traitors regardless of their religious leanings.

Loyalist Chapters (if there will be 4) should be represented by:

1. Ultramarines - a "codex" chapter includes almost all types of units you could ask for. Other Chapters should be considered in how they bring that "lil something extra you can't get in a Codex Chapter. Most differences will boil down to role play like the Chaos Legions.
2. Black Templars - Sword Brethren squads, The Emperor's Champion.
3. Grey Knights - ignore the fluff of super duper secrecy for the sake of gameplay.
4. Space Wolves - Rune Priests

AWesker1976 wrote:Included Chapters and Legions should be determined on how different the Chapter/Legion operate and conduct war/day to day minutia, not what color their armor is. [...] Most of the differences between Legions with the exception of the 4 Legions who dedicate themselves to only 1 of the 4 powers are role play.

Given that the different Chapters and Legions will very likely just be "skins" (considering they are one single faction), isn't any difference between them in the game ultimately "just roleplay"? Explain to me the difference between a Rune Priest and a normal Space Marine Librarian, for example.

Basically, I'd counter that argument with that the Chapters/Legions should be determined by what is popular and thus actually draws people to them. And if potential players are more concerned about "their armour colour" (meaning, fluff background) than supposed differences in gameplay, which I believe to be the case, then ...

I mean, this is 40k. Fans whose primary interest would be a greater variance in gameplay would play an entirely different faction, rather than choosing grey marines over blue marines.

Or red marines, or red marines with spikes, or the OTHER red marines with spikes, or the OTHER grey marines, or the grey marines with cybernetic limbs, or the OTHER grey marines with cybernetic limbs, or the OTHER grey marines that we swear are really different this time no really, honest! and et cetera.

Remember the hardcore 40k fan will care about the subtle differences between chapters that the casual player won't notice or care about.

What "draws" a player to desperately want to be a Dark Angel Assault Marine as opposed to an Ultramarine one, or Blood Angel one? Sacrifices in choices that pertain solely on roleplaying/tabletop fluff have to be considered due to the fact that all chapters and all legions cannot be included without dedicating the lion's share of the dev time and budget thus sacrificing quality for the other factions involved. If the devs have to worry about everyone's favorite chapter or legion, then Eldar/Orks will be neglected and the game will suffer as a result.

Grey Knights bring more to the table than "picking a grey armor over a blue one" due to chapter organization, battle tactics, wargear available to them. They don't have the counterparts in other chapters. An Ultramarine Devastator is no different from a Dark Angel/Blood Angel/Imperial Fist. If the most important thing for a game looking to play a Chaos Raptor is the color of the armor and the heraldry on their shoulder then they can roll a Black Legion Raptor and buy whatever skin pack they want.

Gameplay has to trump roleplaying and favorite colors.

AWesker1976 wrote:

Grey Knights bring more to the table than "picking a grey armor over a blue one" due to chapter organization, battle tactics, wargear available to them. They don't have the counterparts in other chapters. An Ultramarine Devastator is no different from a Dark Angel/Blood Angel/Imperial Fist. If the most important thing for a game looking to play a Chaos Raptor is the color of the armor and the heraldry on their shoulder then they can roll a Black Legion Raptor and buy whatever skin pack they want.

Gameplay has to trump roleplaying and favorite colors.

I noticed you never included Space Wolves. Space Wolf Long Fangs are, for Codex intents, the same thing as a Devastator squad. However, they are drawn from the ranks of seasoned warriors rather than newer-to-the-battlefield warriors. Blood Angels Assault Marines are different from Ultramarine Assault Marines. There ARE Chapter differentiations. This also applies to Chaos, mind. And whoever came up with the idea that "Black Legion = EVERYONE" is just plain silly. They have their own culture and tactical style too.

Blood Angel Assault MArines differ in role play and fluff only. You need to understand - minor deviations in chapter beliefs cannot be represented completely in gameplay. That's roleplay. Will an Ork being torn up by a chainsword be any different because the Marine holding the sword is a Dark Angel instead of a Blood Angel?

I didn't include Long Fangs because I assume that you would grasp my point of a devastator is a devastator is a devastator regardless of the picture on their left shoulder.

AWesker1976 wrote:
Blood Angel Assault MArines differ in role play and fluff only. You need to understand - minor deviations in chapter beliefs cannot be represented completely in gameplay. That's roleplay. Will an Ork being torn up by a chainsword be any different because the Marine holding the sword is a Dark Angel instead of a Blood Angel?

I didn't include Long Fangs because I assume that you would grasp my point of a devastator is a devastator is a devastator regardless of the picture on their left shoulder.

The point I'm trying to prove is that you didn't include Long Fangs because they are distinctively different unit in their Codex. If the Codex did not have such a unit, despite the fluff for Long Fangs, that has been around for ages, you would be telling me that Long Fangs are Devastators are Devastators. I don't think this game is simply going to distinctify a unit because of Codex differences, but it is important to note that what is something for one Chapter is not the same something for another Chapter.

Well considering this game is for warhammer fans I am pretty sure they would care about what chapters they get to play and understand the difference between a blood angel and salamander marine.

I'm talking about gameplay mechanics you are speaking to fluff and roleplay, what specific mechanic that can be programmed into code would distinguish a Long Fang from any Devastator?
Fluff in the codex can not be quantified into code. Chapter beliefs, chapter history, subtle nuances and minutia does not translate to cold, hard computer code.

The reason neither of us can see the other's point is what we are trying to communicate to each other doesn't translate.

AWesker1976 wrote:Remember the hardcore 40k fan will care about the subtle differences between chapters that the casual player won't notice or care about. [...] Sacrifices in choices that pertain solely on roleplaying/tabletop fluff have to be considered due to the fact that all chapters and all legions cannot be included without dedicating the lion's share of the dev time and budget thus sacrificing quality for the other factions involved.

This seems like a contradictory statement. "The hardcore fan does care for fluff and rp - let's just ignore them"?

Or are you suggesting that this game should focus on a broader audience instead of taking a "fans first" approach? In that case, I could see your point - but I wouldn't like the direction.

unmercifulconker wrote:Well considering this game is for warhammer fans I am pretty sure they would care about what chapters they get to play and understand the difference between a blood angel and salamander marine.

This game isn't for Warhammer fans specifically. It's for gamers. If they were gearing this to 40k fans alone, the game wouldn't last long. Even the Dawn of War series and Space Marine had to cut corners to sell it to the public gamer audience.

AWesker1976 wrote:I'm talking about gameplay mechanics you are speaking to fluff and roleplay, what specific mechanic that can be programmed into code would distinguish a Long Fang from any Devastator?
Fluff in the codex can not be quantified into code. Chapter beliefs, chapter history, subtle nuances and minutia does not translate to cold, hard computer code.

I agree that the game will not make a difference. I am merely correcting your earlier point that X Y and Z Chapters' Devastators are the same, and other such comments along the same vein.

 Enigwolf wrote:


I agree that the game will not make a difference. I am merely correcting your earlier point that X Y and Z Chapters' Devastators are the same, and other such comments along the same vein.

We're still playing the game mechanic vs fluff game. Let's just agree to disagree and let the thread go back to the game instead of continuing this line of thought.

Enigwolf wrote:This game isn't for Warhammer fans specifically. It's for gamers. If they were gearing this to 40k fans alone, the game wouldn't last long. Even the Dawn of War series and Space Marine had to cut corners to sell it to the public gamer audience.

You sure? I tend to perceive the gaming industry as being largely dominated by some very few AAA-titles that ultimately render 99% of all attempts to topple them futile, resulting in a huge waste of investment by catering not to loyal fans but to the faceless "average gamer" - who then just ends up ignoring your product.

Call me naive, but I'd rather see more high-quality niche games like EVE or Mount & Blade that don't even try to compete with the #1 and instead focus on delivering to a smaller, yet more reliable crowd of long-term fans. What's the point of tapping the 40k IP if you do not intend to market it to 40k fans? If you're relying almost exclusively on gameplay, you don't need an established brand to release a successful title.

(and what corners are you referring to in the two examples you mentioned?)

 Lynata wrote:


(and what corners are you referring to in the two examples you mentioned?)

Dawn of War was a RTS set in the 40K universe not a 40K game with RTS traits. You didn't need to have a 40k Loremaster Phd to jump in and start building an army.
Space Marine was a generic 3rd person run and gun adventure game set in the 40K universe, you literally could have cut the Ultramarines completely out of the game and replaced them with any generic army and nothing would be different.

I wouldn't suggest trying to cater to the "average gamer", but catering to only the 40k fans is a losing prospect, considering that 40k is a niche market and doesn't always attract the sorts of people who would be in to a competitive shooter. If it was an MMOTBS instead of an MMO3PS, that'd be different.

AWesker1976 wrote:Dawn of War was a RTS set in the 40K universe not a 40K game with RTS traits. You didn't need to have a 40k Loremaster Phd to jump in and start building an army.
Space Marine was a generic 3rd person run and gun adventure game set in the 40K universe, you literally could have cut the Ultramarines completely out of the game and replaced them with any generic army and nothing would be different.

Yet that doesn't really address the question - what corners were cut, meaning which elements of 40k were sacrificed for gameplay there?

(and for the Space Marine game, I'd actually say that the Ultramarines easily qualify as the most fitting Chapter for much of the dialogue, considering how often Brother Whatshisname ranted on about the Codex Astartes saying this and that ... I think it would have been somewhat odd if you'd have played this as, say, a Space Wolf)

Melissia wrote:I wouldn't suggest trying to cater to the "average gamer", but catering to only the 40k fans is a losing prospect, considering that 40k is a niche market and doesn't always attract the sorts of people who would be in to a competitive shooter. If it was an MMOTBS instead of an MMO3PS, that'd be different.

Naturally, a balance would have to be struck - I just think it is quite possible to produce an enticing game without "cutting corners".

 Lynata wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:This game isn't for Warhammer fans specifically. It's for gamers. If they were gearing this to 40k fans alone, the game wouldn't last long. Even the Dawn of War series and Space Marine had to cut corners to sell it to the public gamer audience.

You sure? I tend to perceive the gaming industry as being largely dominated by some very few AAA-titles that ultimately render 99% of all attempts to topple them futile, resulting in a huge waste of investment by catering not to loyal fans but to the faceless "average gamer" - who then just ends up ignoring your product

I agree. There's a HUGE amount of F2P-shooters aka F2PFPS out there with no theme at all and the amount of active users in there is just ridiculous. I am fairly sure that a large part of the 40k F2PFPS game will also consists of people who aren't 40k fans at all. That's not a bad thing, in the contrary.