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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 00:05:03
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TIMBUKTU, Mali (AP) — The photocopies of the manual lay in heaps on the floor, in stacks that scaled one wall, like Xeroxed, stapled handouts for a class.
Except that the students in this case were al-Qaida fighters in Mali. And the manual was a detailed guide, with diagrams and photographs, on how to use a weapon that particularly concerns the United States: A surface-to-air missile capable of taking down a commercial airplane.
The 26-page document in Arabic, recovered by The Associated Press in a building that had been occupied by al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb in Timbuktu, strongly suggests the group now possesses the SA-7 surface-to-air missile, known to the Pentagon as the Grail, according to terrorism specialists. And it confirms that the al-Qaida cell is actively training its fighters to use these weapons, also called man-portable air-defense systems, or MANPADS, which likely came from the arms depots of ex-Libyan strongman Col. Moammar Gadhafi.
"The existence of what apparently constitutes a 'Dummies Guide to MANPADS' is strong circumstantial evidence of al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb having the missiles," said Atlantic Council analyst Peter Pham, a former adviser to the United States' military command in Africa and an instructor to U.S. Special Forces. "Why else bother to write the guide if you don't have the weapons? ... If AQIM not only has the MANPADS, but also fighters who know how to use them effectively," he added, "then the impact is significant, not only on the current conflict, but on security throughout North and West Africa, and possibly beyond."
This is not the first al-Qaida-linked group thought to have MANPADS - they were circulating in Afghanistan and Iraq, and a terror cell in Somalia recently claimed to have the SA-7 in a video. But the U.S. desperately wanted to keep the weapons out of the hands of al-Qaida's largest affiliate on the continent, based in Mali. In the spring of 2011, before the fighting in Tripoli had even stopped, a U.S. team flew to Libya to secure Gadhafi's stockpile of thousands of heat-seeking, shoulder-fired missiles.
By the time they got there, many had already been looted.
"The MANPADS were specifically being sought out," said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director for Human Rights Watch, who catalogued missing weapons at dozens of munitions depots and often found nothing in the boxes labeled with the code for surface-to-air missiles.
The manual is believed to be an excerpt from a terrorist encyclopedia edited by Osama bin Laden. It adds to evidence for the weapon found by French forces during their land assault in Mali earlier this year, including the discovery of the SA-7's battery pack and launch tube, according to military statements and an aviation official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to comment.
The knowledge that the terrorists have the weapon has already changed the way the French are carrying out their five-month-old offensive in Mali. They are using more fighter jets rather than helicopters to fly above its range of 1.4 miles (2.3 kilometers) from the ground, even though that makes it harder to attack the jihadists. They are also making cargo planes land and take off more steeply to limit how long they are exposed, in line with similar practices in Iraq after an SA-14 hit the wing of a DHL cargo plane in 2003.
And they have added their own surveillance at Mali's international airport in Bamako, according to two French aviation officials and an officer in the Operation Serval force. All three spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to comment.
"There are patrols every day," said the French officer. "It's one of the things we have not entrusted to the Malians, because the stakes are too high."
First introduced in the 1960s in the Soviet Union, the SA-7 was designed to be portable. Not much larger than a poster tube, it can be packed into a duffel bag and easily carried. It's also affordable, with some SA-7s selling for as little as $5,000.
Since 1975, at least 40 civilian aircraft have been hit by different types of MANPADS, causing about 28 crashes and more than 800 deaths around the world, according to the U.S. Department of State.
The SA-7 is an old generation model, which means most military planes now come equipped with a built-in protection mechanism against it. But that's not the case for commercial planes, and the threat is greatest to civilian aviation.
In Kenya in 2002, suspected Islamic extremists fired two SA-7s at a Boeing 757 carrying 271 vacationers back to Israel, but missed. Insurgents in Iraq used the weapons, and YouTube videos abound purporting to show Syrian rebels using the SA-7 to shoot down regime planes.
An SA-7 tracks a plane by directing itself toward the source of the heat, the engine. It takes time and practice, however, to fire it within range. The failure of the jihadists in Mali so far to hit a plane could mean that they cannot position themselves near airports with commercial flights, or that they are not yet fully trained to use the missile.
"This is not a 'Fire and forget' weapon," said Bruce Hoffman, director of the Center for Security Studies at Georgetown University. "There's a paradox here. One the one hand it's not easy to use, but against any commercial aircraft there would be no defenses against them. It's impossible to protect against it. ... If terrorists start training and learn how to use them, we'll be in a lot of trouble."
In Timbuktu, SA-7 training was likely part of the curriculum at the 'Jihad Academy' housed in a former police station, said Jean-Paul Rouiller, director of the Geneva Center for Training and Analysis of Terrorism, one of three experts who reviewed the manual for AP. It's located less than 3 miles (5 kilometers) from the Ministry of Finance's Budget Division building where the manual was found.
Neighbors say they saw foreign fighters running laps each day, carrying out target practice and inhaling and holding their breath with a pipe-like object on their shoulder. The drill is standard practice for shoulder-held missiles, including the SA-7.
As the jihadists fled ahead of the arrival of French troops who liberated Timbuktu on Jan. 28, they left the manual behind, along with other instructional material, including a spiral-bound pamphlet showing how to use the KPV-14.5 anti-aircraft machine gun and another on how to make a bomb out of ammonium nitrate, among other documents retrieved by the AP. Residents said the jihadists grabbed reams of paper from inside the building, doused them in fuel and set them alight. The black, feathery ash lay on top of the sand in a ditch just outside the building's gate.
However, numerous buildings were still full of scattered papers.
"They just couldn't destroy everything," said neighbor Mohamed Alassane. "They appeared to be in a panic when the French came. They left in a state of disorder."
The manual is illustrated with grainy images of Soviet-looking soldiers firing the weapon. Point-by-point instructions explain how to insert the battery, focus on the target and fire.
The manual also explains that the missile will malfunction above 45 degrees Celsius, the temperature in the deserts north of Timbuktu. And it advises the shooter to change immediately into a second set of clothes after firing to avoid detection.
Its pages are numbered 313 through 338, suggesting they came from elsewhere. Mathieu Guidere, an expert on Islamic extremists at the University of Toulouse, believes the excerpts are lifted from the Encyclopedia of Jihad, an 11-volume survey on the craft of war first compiled by the Taliban in the 1990s and later codified by Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden, who led a contingent of Arab fighters in Afghanistan at the time, paid to have the encyclopedia translated into Arabic, according to Guidere, author of a book on al-Qaida's North African branch.
However, the cover page of the manual boasts the name of al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb.
"It's a way to make it their own," said Guidere. "It's like putting a logo on something. ... It shows the historic as well as the present link between al-Qaida core and AQIM."
Bin Laden later assembled a team of editors to update the manual, put it on CD-ROMs and eventually place it on the Internet, in a move that lay the groundwork for the globalization of jihad, according to terrorism expert Jarret Brachman, who was the director of research at the Combating Terrorism Center when the al-Qaida encyclopedia was first found.
N.R. Jenzen-Jones, an arms expert in Australia, confirmed that the information in the manual in Timbuktu on the missile's engagement range, altitude and weight appeared largely correct. He cautions though that the history of the SA-7 is one of near-misses, specifically because it takes training to use.
"Even if you get your hands on an SA-7, it's no guarantee of success," he said. "However, if someone manages to take down a civilian aircraft, it's hundreds of dead instantly. It's a high impact, low-frequency event, and it sows a lot of fear."
Didn't they talk about putting ECM's on civilian airliners awhile back? Was turned down due to cost for the airlines? Granted it won't be our ALQ144/133...probably a 2nd or 3rd generation ALQ.
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 01:03:16
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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And this is why we shouldn't be shipping similar weapons to Syria
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 01:05:55
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Al Qaeda doesn't exist, if you listen to some here, so this obviously is a fallacy.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 01:27:35
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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djones520 wrote:Al Qaeda doesn't exist, if you listen to some here, so this obviously is a fallacy.
Wait, what? Who said that?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 01:41:53
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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Although he never actually used those words, the state Al Qaeda's demise is attributed to the President based on his talking up their ever imminent defeat.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/12 01:51:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 02:00:57
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Yep, looks like going into Libya was the smartest move of the decade. Who's up for Syria? Maybe Al Qaeda can get chem bombs too!
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 03:13:56
Subject: Re:Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I vote for going to Lybia with a slight caveat. Instead of landing troops, we use air and missile power to exterminate anything holding an AK. Government or Rebel, it matters not. The world could use a good three way war to spice things up.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 03:52:50
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Fresh-Faced New User
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azazel the cat wrote:djones520 wrote:Al Qaeda doesn't exist, if you listen to some here, so this obviously is a fallacy.
Wait, what? Who said that?
the user manilsmo said it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 05:24:36
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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bosobo wrote: azazel the cat wrote:djones520 wrote:Al Qaeda doesn't exist, if you listen to some here, so this obviously is a fallacy.
Wait, what? Who said that?
the user manilsmo said it
Must've missed that. I regret nothing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 08:49:40
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Douglas Bader
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Jihadin wrote:Didn't they talk about putting ECM's on civilian airliners awhile back? Was turned down due to cost for the airlines? Granted it won't be our ALQ144/133...probably a 2nd or 3rd generation ALQ.
Cost and danger. Having flares on a commercial jet is a non-trivial safety issue, so without a credible threat it's not a good idea. Expect this to change if/when someone successfully shoots down a plane, but you're still stuck with the fundamental problem of being a low and slow target flying a precisely defined approach path that has to be published for everyone to see. Even a command-guided missile should be able to do it, and heat seekers are cheap and spammable. When any failure rate above 0% is unacceptable it doesn't take much.
(Of course the fact that nobody is parking remote launchers full of homemade SAMs under the approach path to major airports just highlights the incompetence of the average terrorist.)
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 11:19:08
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Frankly you could probably cause a crash at a major airport with a large balloon cluster towing a heavy wire, released into the flight path as the plane approaches too near to avoid it.
You could inflate the balloon in a box van or lorry with a roof that you would whip away quickly at launch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 12:18:10
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Kilkrazy wrote:Frankly you could probably cause a crash at a major airport with a large balloon cluster towing a heavy wire, released into the flight path as the plane approaches too near to avoid it.
You could inflate the balloon in a box van or lorry with a roof that you would whip away quickly at launch.
Am I the only one who finds it disconcerting that Killkrazy has been thinking of ways to bring down aircraft with clown accessories?
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 12:58:36
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Battlefield Tourist
MN (Currently in WY)
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We know for a fact you can bring a plane down using a flock of geese. Just drive them in near the landing pad, and then let them go and scare them into the sky at the right time.
I'm sure PRISM has now flagged this post for human review.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 13:00:06
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Did they do that to a Messerschmidt in Last Crusade?
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 13:08:06
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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I didn't have to think about it, it just came to me. It is just an update of barrage balloons, after all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 13:11:32
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Bryan Ansell
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Looks like AQ exhausted their supply of early gen stingers then.
Besides.
Why blow something up when the threat of blowing something up would be equally as effective? if not more so.
Sure, an AQ operative doesn't get to paradise as quickly but they can sure disrupt international flights by saying their is a bomb, in the sky or at a terminal.
Over fly an airport with a light copter or a glider, that'll shut down flights for a while, drop package out of the window. Leave a bag unattended with a loud alarm clock in it......
You don't need to put military grade hardware in the hands of incompetents to achieve your aims.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 13:25:18
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Indiana's dad used seagulls. But to the same effect
You know this does make me glad i dont travel much. But i want to know how the hell they would get hold of these? I mean isnt the whole point of being on the opposite side is that you do not supply your enemy with advanced weapons? Or am i just crazy?
Oh and killkrazy im glad to hear im not the only one whos been thinking on this subject
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 13:27:29
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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This is not helping... note to self, be very polite to Killkrazy from now on.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 13:46:49
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
St. Louis, Missouri
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Yup. Thanks to Dr. Jones Sr. for remembering his Charlemagne. Edit - ninja'd
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/12 13:47:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 14:21:01
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Imperial Admiral
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master of ordinance wrote:
Indiana's dad used seagulls. But to the same effect
You know this does make me glad i dont travel much. But i want to know how the hell they would get hold of these? I mean isnt the whole point of being on the opposite side is that you do not supply your enemy with advanced weapons? Or am i just crazy?
Oh and killkrazy im glad to hear im not the only one whos been thinking on this subject 
They're Soviet-era weapons. We likely did not give them to them. There's plenty of arms floating around the Middle East.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 14:29:34
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Battlefield Tourist
MN (Currently in WY)
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master of ordinance wrote:You know this does make me glad i dont travel much. But i want to know how the hell they would get hold of these? I mean isnt the whole point of being on the opposite side is that you do not supply your enemy with advanced weapons? Or am i just crazy?
Profit has no "side".
Edit: Also, regarding the geese, I was thinking more about Captain Sully and ditching his plane into the Hudson River.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/12 19:30:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 14:36:36
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Er, none of those are my posts.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 15:08:05
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Focused Fire Warrior
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Peregrine wrote: Jihadin wrote:Didn't they talk about putting ECM's on civilian airliners awhile back? Was turned down due to cost for the airlines? Granted it won't be our ALQ144/133...probably a 2nd or 3rd generation ALQ.
Cost and danger. Having flares on a commercial jet is a non-trivial safety issue, so without a credible threat it's not a good idea. Expect this to change if/when someone successfully shoots down a plane, but you're still stuck with the fundamental problem of being a low and slow target flying a precisely defined approach path that has to be published for everyone to see. Even a command-guided missile should be able to do it, and heat seekers are cheap and spammable. When any failure rate above 0% is unacceptable it doesn't take much.
(Of course the fact that nobody is parking remote launchers full of homemade SAMs under the approach path to major airports just highlights the incompetence of the average terrorist.)
Don't need flares...LAIRCM (a laser-based IR countermeasure system) or something similar would work quite nicely. The real problem is in the cost of the IR warning receivers and countermeasure system, as well as the additional weight it would add (not much, but when you lose a couple hundred available pounds per flight over thousands of flights, it adds up quickly).
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- 4300pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/12 19:31:00
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Battlefield Tourist
MN (Currently in WY)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/13 00:29:22
Subject: Seems AQ has SA-7 Grails. Civilian Airlines probaly be targets.
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Battleship Captain
The Land of the Rising Sun
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spectreoneone wrote: Peregrine wrote: Jihadin wrote:Didn't they talk about putting ECM's on civilian airliners awhile back? Was turned down due to cost for the airlines? Granted it won't be our ALQ144/133...probably a 2nd or 3rd generation ALQ.
Cost and danger. Having flares on a commercial jet is a non-trivial safety issue, so without a credible threat it's not a good idea. Expect this to change if/when someone successfully shoots down a plane, but you're still stuck with the fundamental problem of being a low and slow target flying a precisely defined approach path that has to be published for everyone to see. Even a command-guided missile should be able to do it, and heat seekers are cheap and spammable. When any failure rate above 0% is unacceptable it doesn't take much.
(Of course the fact that nobody is parking remote launchers full of homemade SAMs under the approach path to major airports just highlights the incompetence of the average terrorist.)
Don't need flares...LAIRCM (a laser-based IR countermeasure system) or something similar would work quite nicely. The real problem is in the cost of the IR warning receivers and countermeasure system, as well as the additional weight it would add (not much, but when you lose a couple hundred available pounds per flight over thousands of flights, it adds up quickly).
Don't worry airlines will solve it creating an anti-missile fee for passengers. What passenger would complain about having to pay such a necessary fee?
M.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/13 00:30:22
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though." |
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