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Here is my crack at Cypher. Criticism Encouraged.

Points: 170

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
7 7 4 4 3 6 4 10 3+

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Master-Crafted Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Bolt Pistol

C'tan Phase Knife: Str: User AP: 3 Range: Melee Special Rules: Instant Death

Special Rules: Eternal Warrior, Gunslinger, Fleet of Foot, Stealth

An Enigma: Cypher always starts the game in reserve. When he leaves reserves he may be deployed anywhere not within 3” of an enemy model. He does not grant VPs if he is removed as a casualty

Fallen: Dark Angels have the Hatred(Cypher) special rule

ok. this is better.

No close combat weapon? In the fluff, he carries a C'Tan phase knife along with the mysterious sword that he will not use.

But overall, what is his role? HQ? Elite?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
ok. this is better.

No close combat weapon? In the fluff, he carries a C'Tan phase knife along with the mysterious sword that he will not use.

But overall, what is his role? HQ? Elite?

I was thinking Elite.

The CC weapon will be edited in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, better than what?

He lost the phase knife in a fight with the Deceiver (or, following the Necron recon, a Deceiver shard I suppose).

And while Cypher does pop up in the oddest places, appearing right in front of people aren't on his list of things he's ever done. Regular Infiltrate would be more appropriate.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Here is my crack at Cypher. Criticism Encouraged.

Points: 150

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
7 7 4 4 3 7 4 10 3+

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Master-Crafted Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Bolt Pistol

Special Rules: Eternal Warrior, Gunslinger, Fleet of Foot, Stealth, Infiltrate

An Enigma: Cypher always starts the game in reserve. When he leaves reserves he may be deployed anywhere not within 3” of an enemy model. He does not grant VPs if he is removed as a casualty

Fallen: Dark Angels have the Hatred(Cypher) special rule

Edited

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Here is my crack at Cypher. Criticism Encouraged.

Points: 170

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
7 7 4 4 3 7 4 10 3+

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Master-Crafted Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Bolt Pistol

C'tan Phase Knife: Str: User AP: 3 Range: Melee Special Rules: Instant Death

Special Rules: Eternal Warrior, Gunslinger, Fleet of Foot, Stealth

An Enigma: Cypher always starts the game in reserve. When he leaves reserves he may be deployed anywhere not within 3” of an enemy model. He does not grant VPs if he is removed as a casualty

Fallen: Dark Angels have the Hatred(Cypher) special rule

Why is he BS 7 if his pistols are master crafted? If he is made BS5, then he hits on 2's and re'rolls the 1's (thanks to Master Crafted). At BS7, he hits on 2's, rerolls 1's but then requires a 5 to hit(thanks to BS7), and this effectively cancels out the Master Crafted doesnt it? So isnt it better to have Master Crafted at BS5 than BS7?

I may well be misunderstanding how these two interact so please explain if Im wrong!

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Here is my crack at Cypher. Criticism Encouraged.

Points: 170

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
7 7 4 4 3 7 4 10 3+

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Master-Crafted Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Bolt Pistol

C'tan Phase Knife: Str: User AP: 3 Range: Melee Special Rules: Instant Death

Special Rules: Eternal Warrior, Gunslinger, Fleet of Foot, Stealth

An Enigma: Cypher always starts the game in reserve. When he leaves reserves he may be deployed anywhere not within 3” of an enemy model. He does not grant VPs if he is removed as a casualty

Fallen: Dark Angels have the Hatred(Cypher) special rule

Why is he BS 7 if his pistols are master crafted? If he is made BS5, then he hits on 2's and re'rolls the 1's (thanks to Master Crafted). At BS7, he hits on 2's, rerolls 1's but then requires a 5 to hit(thanks to BS7), and this effectively cancels out the Master Crafted doesnt it? So isnt it better to have Master Crafted at BS5 than BS7?

I may well be misunderstanding how these two interact so please explain if Im wrong!

As far as I know the better re-roll takes precedence.

Have you considered a rule where taking Cypher in a CSM army in your primary detachment would allow you to take Dark Angel Allies as blood brothers? (to represent him fighting alongside some fallen).

Also, that weapon skill and initiative are too high. He's never had more than your average Chaos Lord/Space Marine captain any time he's had stats. The only thing he's ever been different on is BS.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Also, that weapon skill and initiative are too high. He's never had more than your average Chaos Lord/Space Marine captain any time he's had stats. The only thing he's ever been different on is BS.

I was under the impression that he was extremely fast.

He does not grant VPs if he is removed as a casualty

I very much dislike this. Everyone else's suicide units, warlords and IC give VP, why should this one be any different?

 Dakkamite wrote:

He does not grant VPs if he is removed as a casualty

I very much dislike this. Everyone else's suicide units, warlords and IC give VP, why should this one be any different?

Because he never has. This is actually an ability he has had before when he had stats. To be entirely forthcoming, it was always a random chance, instead of a guarantee, but it's not a big issue to have it this way.

Also, I rescind my claim about his initiative, it was always higher than the average Lord/Captain, but I6 should suffice on that front. It's about what it equates to.

And the reports of his loss of the Phase Knife are cloudy. If you want to have the AP3 Instant Death weapon in there, I wouldn't argue against it anymore. But the 2012 version of Cypher's rules are about as sane as what people usually make up for their custom chapter masters.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

He does not grant VPs if he is removed as a casualty

I very much dislike this. Everyone else's suicide units, warlords and IC give VP, why should this one be any different?

Because he never has. This is actually an ability he has had before when he had stats. To be entirely forthcoming, it was always a random chance, instead of a guarantee, but it's not a big issue to have it this way.

Also, I rescind my claim about his initiative, it was always higher than the average Lord/Captain, but I6 should suffice on that front. It's about what it equates to.

And the reports of his loss of the Phase Knife are cloudy. If you want to have the AP3 Instant Death weapon in there, I wouldn't argue against it anymore. But the 2012 version of Cypher's rules are about as sane as what people usually make up for their custom chapter masters.

Alright then, I6 it is

What army was this supposed to be for again? Chaos Space Marines I presume?

I'd also think he could be part of a Dark Angels army if there were no one with the Inner Circle rule present. No one else knows who he is, and Cypher is exactly tricky enough to mysteriously show up after their regular leader died under "mysterious" circumstances and be like "hey guys, I'm in charge now". And the Dark Angels are so inured to just following orders they don't understand that they'd go along with it.

He feels sort of drab to me. For such a cool character, it's not that cool of a profile. Fairly balanced I suppose but not really interesting.

I would not necessarily just clone the old version- I think giving him an archeotec pistol (or two) would be a cool twist. That was always the problem with the old rules (from a background perspective) this guy has been probably the deadliest pistol fighter in the galaxy for ten millenia and he has basically standard hand cannons (with some master-crafted WD-40 added)

I think his wargear, rather than his stats, should be doing the killing. IE 6 WS7 I6 attacks on the charge doesn't seem right. He's slippery in CC more than choppy. Just make his overwatch hit at regular BS and give him auto-pass hit and run.

I would go with

Cyper-- The Voice of the Emperor
215 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 10 4 4 2 5 4 10 2+

Wargear-- Crucible of Despair, Storm of Doubt, Smoke in the Wind, Frag and Krak Grenades

Special Rules-- Gunslinger, Hit and Run, Matchless Marksman, Interceptor, Infiltrate, Hatred: Dark Angels, Inquitision

Crucible of Despair-- Cyper has carried this ancient archeotech pistol for at least 4,000 years. It is remarkably crafted- both beautiful and lethal.
Strength 5 AP 2 Range 24'' Assault 2, Blast OR Strength 6 AP 1 Range 18'' Assault 3

Storm of Doubt-- A technological relic of possibly alien, or cybernetic human origin, Cypher's Storm of Doubt has claimed the lives of over a hundred loyal Astartes.
Strength 5 AP 3 Range 18'' Template, Rending Place the narrow end of the template within 18 inches then resolve as normal for a template weapon. Rolls D6 hits + 2 for resolving overwatch.

Smoke in the Wind-- Cypher's ornate artificer armor is the secret behind many of his close escapes. The elaborate scroll work adorning the baroque armor conceals an original crusade era displacer field, built into the armor. This displacer field follows all the rules found in the Dark Angels codex.

Matchless Marksman-- Cypher always uses his full ballistic skill regardless of the target engaged or the circumstances involved (IE overwatch). Both his weapons count as pistols IRT the 'gunslinger' special rule. Cover saves may not be taken against shots from Cypher.


To me that makes him feel like an ancient wanderer... who is very, very handy with guns.

Cypher is an established character with established equipment. What you're suggesting is making up an entirely new character.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Cypher is an established character with established equipment. What you're suggesting is making up an entirely new character.

No, he really isn't. There are no official GW rulels for him that still apply.

And besides, he is way to OP the way you have him.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Cypher is an established character with established equipment. What you're suggesting is making up an entirely new character.

Right-- but how old are his rules? So old that half is wargear literally doesn't exist anymore. If you are making the argument that he is 'established' and shouldn't be messed with... I'm sorry but I don't see why you are even posting here... I thought that was sort of the point of the topic? The entire point is to change him, otherwise just post what he is now... I don't get your point. If nothing else you are implying that changing the profile is less 'fluff breaking' than changing the wargear, which from either a background or mechanics standpoint, is loose butthole.

The profile I wrote hits all his key points-- very dangerous with guns, very elusive and difficult to kill/capture

And besides, he is way to OP the way you have him.

Why because he costs 90% as much as a plasma devestator squad and will kill fewer people per turn and only at a closer range? Or because of his 6'' movement and 24'' weapon? Or the fact that 4 lascannon shots (which outrange him by a factor of 2 to 1) will kill him, and probably give you Slay the Warlord, First Blood, and a kill point?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Cypher is an established character with established equipment. What you're suggesting is making up an entirely new character.

No, he really isn't. There are no official GW rulels for him that still apply.

I was referring to Silverthorne's ideas, your Cypher is perfectly reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silverthorne wrote:

Right-- but how old are his rules?

Last fall, technically.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Cypher is an established character with established equipment. What you're suggesting is making up an entirely new character.

No, he really isn't. There are no official GW rulels for him that still apply.

I was referring to Silverthorne's ideas, your Cypher is perfectly reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silverthorne wrote:

Right-- but how old are his rules?

Last fall, technically.

Really? I didn't realize white dwarf 281 came out last fall.

Where are your ideas? Or response?

 Silverthorne wrote:


Really? I didn't realize white dwarf 281 came out last fall.

Where are your ideas? Or response?

My ideas are already in this thread.

Also, he had rules for use in the Dark Vengeance campaign. They're even on the internet.

I think someone mentioned that he is more slippery then deadly in CC so maybe give him Hit and Run? That being said, I think he is great the way he is right now, simple and uncomplicated (something I must strive to do with my characters). I may use him for an upcoming apoc game