Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy (The Difference between a traitor and a whistleblower)

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**KalashnikovMarine**

Huh, two pages to Godwin eh? That was kinda slow for OT

**Grey Templar**

rubiksnoob wrote:
I don't understand the mindset of people who place loyalty to country above all else.

Then you must not understand the mindset of anyone who is loyal to anything.

Also, the country and the government of said country are not the same thing. One can be loyal to the country and not like the government.

**Alfndrate**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Huh, two pages to Godwin eh? That was kinda slow for OT

Az Godwin'd on the first page.

**Easy E**

SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Easy E wrote:

You had me until that last part sentence.

This really isn't a R or D issue. It is an American (or insert country of your choice) issue and the core values each citizen values.

Except of course, he was talking against the President who is fully supporting and defending these programs. It's not anti-D it's anti-O.

Okay. Bush did the same stuff, so it is really more anti-executive unconstitutional power grab in my book. It doesn't matter to me if it is O, G.W.B., Nixon, Robot Nixon, or the next president. Unconstitutional power grab is an unconstitutional power grab!

Boo on that I say.

**Slarg232**

Easy E wrote:
SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Easy E wrote:

You had me until that last part sentence.

This really isn't a R or D issue. It is an American (or insert country of your choice) issue and the core values each citizen values.

Except of course, he was talking against the President who is fully supporting and defending these programs. It's not anti-D it's anti-O.

Okay. Bush did the same stuff, so it is really more anti-executive unconstitutional power grab in my book. It doesn't matter to me if it is O, G.W.B., Nixon, Robot Nixon, or the next president. Unconstitutional power grab is an unconstitutional power grab!

Boo on that I say.

Here here!

The thing we really need to think about, is how do we change it, what all needs changing, and what else?

Because I don't think we are going to survive another century with our current government....

The first step is vote everyone out at once. Then possibly let the Weiny Legions eat all the evidence.

**KalashnikovMarine**

I concur, this isn't about Bush, or Obama, or Democrats or Republicans. ALL of these scum suckers are working to restrict our freedom, the bills that receive massive bipartisan support do just that, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, hell even programs like CISPA until enough people started freaking out about it.

**Dreadclaw69**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I concur, this isn't about Bush, or Obama, or Democrats or Republicans. ALL of these scum suckers are working to restrict our freedom, the bills that receive massive bipartisan support do just that, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, hell even programs like CISPA until enough people started freaking out about it.

Exactly!!
Collecting data on millions of Americans who have done nothing wrong, and who are suspected of no wrong doing, should not be reduced to a partisan issue.

**azazel the cat**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Huh, two pages to Godwin eh? That was kinda slow for OT

I Godwin'd this muthaf- in the first few posts.

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I concur, this isn't about Bush, or Obama, or Democrats or Republicans. ALL of these scum suckers are working to restrict our freedom, the bills that receive massive bipartisan support do just that, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, hell even programs like CISPA until enough people started freaking out about it.

Exactly!!
Collecting data on millions of Americans who have done nothing wrong, and who are suspected of no wrong doing, should not be reduced to a partisan issue.

Wholeheartedly agree. What I find even more troubling is the high number of people who seem to be operating under the general principle that everyone should just blindly support the government, even in this situation.

**Jihadin**

OBIDENCE TO ORDER!!!

pain meds kicking in.....hhhuuuzzzaaaaahhhhhh

**Seaward**

azazel the cat wrote:
Wholeheartedly agree. What I find even more troubling is the high number of people who seem to be operating under the general principle that everyone should just blindly support the government, even in this situation.

Could you point some of those people out? I haven't heard anyone, on the interwebs, on TV, anywhere, saying that we should blindly support the government.

**Dreadclaw69**

azazel the cat wrote:
Wholeheartedly agree. What I find even more troubling is the high number of people who seem to be operating under the general principle that everyone should just blindly support the government, even in this situation.

Thank you

Seems that those with access to PRISM and the data are very interested in defending it;
http://news.yahoo.com/nsa-director-programs-disrupted-dozens-attacks-191601952.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — The director of the National Security Agency said Wednesday that once-secret surveillance programs disrupted dozens of terrorist attacks, explicitly describing for Congress how the programs worked in collecting Americans' phone records and tapping into their Internet activity.
Vigorously defending the programs, Gen. Keith Alexander said the public needs to know how the programs operate amid growing concerns that government efforts to secure the nation are encroaching on Americans' privacy and civil liberties.
"I do think it's important that we get this right and I want the American people to know that we're trying to be transparent here, protect civil liberties and privacy but also the security of this country," Alexander told a Senate panel.
Alexander said he will provide additional information to the Senate Intelligence Committee in closed session on Thursday and hopes to have as many details as possible within a week. He said he wants the information to be checked first by other agencies to ensure that the details are correct.
But he also warned that disclosures about the secret programs have eroded agency capabilities and, as a result, U.S. allies and Americans won't be as safe as they were two weeks ago.
"Some of these are still going to be classified and should be, because if we tell the terrorists every way that we're going to track them, they will get through and Americans will die," he said, adding that he would rather be criticized by people who think he's hiding something "than jeopardize the security of this country."
He was questioned at length by senators seeking information on exactly how much data the NSA collects and the legal backing for the activities. He did not give details on the terror plots he said had been disrupted.
Half a world away, Edward Snowden, the former contractor who fled to Hong Kong and leaked the documents, said he's not there to hide from justice and has faith in "the courts and people of Hong Kong to decide my fate."
"I am neither traitor nor hero. I'm an American," Snowden told the South China Morning Post about his disclosures of top-secret surveillance programs that have rocked Washington.
Snowden said in the interview published Wednesday that he hasn't dared contact his family or his girlfriend since coming forward as the leaker of NSA documents. "I am worried about the pressure they are feeling from the FBI," he said.
The FBI visited his father's house in Pennsylvania on Monday.
Snowden resurfaced in the Chinese newspaper after dropping out of sight since Sunday. Snowden said he wanted to fight the U.S. government in Hong Kong's courts and would stay unless "asked to leave." Hong Kong is a Chinese autonomous region that maintains a Western-style legal system and freedom of speech.
U.S. law enforcement officials have said they are building a case against Snowden but have yet to bring charges. Hong Kong has an extradition treaty with the United States; there are exceptions in cases of political persecution or where there are concerns over cruel or humiliating treatment.
Snowden told the paper from a location the paper didn't disclose that he has no plans to leave.
"I have had many opportunities to flee (Hong Kong), but I would rather stay and fight the US government in the courts, because I have faith in (Hong Kong's) rule of law," he said.
On Tuesday, a phalanx of FBI, legal and intelligence officials briefed the entire House in an attempt to explain National Security Agency programs that collect millions of Americans' phone and Internet records. Since they were revealed last week, the programs have provoked distrust in the Obama administration from around the world.
House members were told not to disclose information they heard in the briefing because it is classified. Several said they left with unanswered questions.
"People aren't satisfied," Rep. Tim Murphy, R-Pa., said as he left the briefing Tuesday. "More detail needs to come out."
While many rank-and-file members of Congress have expressed anger and bewilderment, there is apparently very little appetite among key leaders and intelligence committee chiefs to pursue any action. Most have expressed support for the programs as invaluable counterterror tools and some have labeled Snowden a traitor.
Congressional leaders and intelligence committee members have been routinely briefed about the spy programs, officials said, and Congress has at least twice renewed laws approving them. But the disclosure of their sheer scope stunned some lawmakers, shocked foreign allies from nations with strict privacy protections and emboldened civil liberties advocates who long have accused the government of being too invasive in the name of national security.
Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., has complained that Director of National Intelligence James Clapper misled a Senate committee in March by denying that the NSA collects data on millions of Americans. On Wednesday, Rep. Justin Amash, R-Mich., called for Clapper to resign.
"Congress can't make informed decisions on intelligence issues when the head of the intelligence community willfully makes false statements," Amash posted on Facebook.
Some Congress members acknowledged they'd been caught unawares by the scope of the programs, having skipped previous briefings by the intelligence committees.
"I think Congress has really found itself a little bit asleep at the wheel," Rep. Steve Cohen, D-Tenn., said.

I think this highlights why it's become such an issue, many in Congress declined to invest their time in the briefings. Similar things happened with counter-terrorism legislation for Northern Ireland. We had promises of heavy scrutiny in Parliament, and what we got instead was rubber stamping when it came renewal time.

**Ouze**

Seaward wrote:
Could you point some of those people out? I haven't heard anyone, on the interwebs, on TV, anywhere, saying that we should blindly support the government.

challenge accepted

**Seaward**

Ouze wrote:
challenge accepted

Well played. You know, I sort of knew when writing that that there'd inevitably be some nutbag out there who said just that.

Hey, does this change anyone's opinion on him?

Snowden reveals to foreign media that the U.S. has been hacking China since 2009.

Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said ... Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.

I'm glad he told us this. It's in clear violation of the 142nd Amendment and thus needs to be brought to light.

**Jihadin**

I'm a living example. I do not blindly support the government.

on a side note....I just had a job offer from Walmart of all things.....

**Grey Templar**

Who cares if we've been hacking China. I'm sure China's been hacking us.

That's a problem for the Chinese not us. unless China feels compelled to raise a stink over it now that its public.

**Seaward**

Grey Templar wrote:
Who cares if we've been hacking China. I'm sure China's been hacking us.

That's a problem for the Chinese not us. unless China feels compelled to raise a stink over it now that its public.

I don't care if we've been hacking China. I kind of care that our hero decided to publicly confirm it and release documents about it, though.

**Grey Templar**

Why?

**Jihadin**

Wait...he's considered a "Hero" now? Wait a bit will ya...the Media still haven't decided yet.....or have they?

**Ratbarf**

Grey Templar wrote:
Why?

Because international relations is founded upon the keeping of publicly known but not confirmed secrets. Plausible deny everything so to speak. Everyone knows that the US and China spy on each other. It's considered bad etiquette to officially point this out or acknowledge it because then it pressures politicians to actually do something about it.

**Seaward**

Ratbarf wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Why?

Because international relations is founded upon the keeping of publicly known but not confirmed secrets. Plausible deny everything so to speak. Everyone knows that the US and China spy on each other. It's considered bad etiquette to officially point this out or acknowledge it because then it pressures politicians to actually do something about it.

That, but also there's the little matter of us not knowing exactly what was revealed. There could be plenty of insight into exactly how we do it, for all we know.

If people have just decided we no longer need classified information because it's a breach of our freedom, great, but I call the non-official cover list for CIA covert folks so I can do the Mission: Impossible thing and sell it to a shady European arms dealer. You guys can fight over the railgun blueprints or whatever. Because, hey, everyone knows we do it, so what's the harm in confirming it and letting people know how?

**rubiksnoob**

Grey Templar wrote:
rubiksnoob wrote:
I don't understand the mindset of people who place loyalty to country above all else.

Then you must not understand the mindset of anyone who is loyal to anything.

Also, the country and the government of said country are not the same thing. One can be loyal to the country and not like the government.

Is that so? Since I don't understand the rationale behind regarding loyalty to country as the highest order of loyalty, I am incapable of understanding loyalty at all? Sorry, but no.

Loyalty to anything isn't something that should just be arbitrarily expected; it should have some logical basis to it, i.e. the king treated his subjects fairly and with understanding, thus earning him their loyalty. Or, loyalty to one's self is necessary in order to lead a fulfilled life.

It should not be regarded as an automatic given, i.e. you happened to be born within a particular set of lines on a map, thus you must remain loyal to the ideals and aims of the social construct those lines on the map arbitrarily define, even at the expense of other loyalties to self, beliefs, loved ones, etc.

And yes, loyalty to country and loyalty to government are indeed separate and distinct. That is why many people are arguing that Snowden is not a traitor. By exposing PRISM he remained loyal to what many consider the ideals of the country: personal freedom, privacy from government intrusion, etc. It becomes tricky, however, when you get down to the legal nitty gritty. Treason may be widely understood to refer to a betrayal of one's country, yet the defense against government brought treason charges that you betrayed the government and not the country probably won't hold up in a government court with the government prosecuting. For legal purposes, the distinction between country and government is negligible at best, to the point where government and country are de facto one and the same.

**Ratbarf**

Well the issue with that is that they don't actually know exactly how it's done. If they did they can make up counter-measures. That said, I thought this PRISM system had been going on for over a decade by now, or has Tom Clancy simply beaten the curve having featured this in a novel of his from the late 90's?

**daedalus**

Ratbarf wrote:
Well the issue with that is that they don't actually know exactly how it's done. If they did they can make up counter-measures. That said, I thought this PRISM system had been going on for over a decade by now, or has Tom Clancy simply beaten the curve having featured this in a novel of his from the late 90's?

There's existed rumors of similar over the years, see Carnivore, and then Echelon before that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The difference is that Echelon did signals collection, which anyone could do on a smaller scale, and you do when you turn on the radio, and Carnivore was the equivalent of a phone wiretap. It was not warrantless wiretapping, not was it at the scale of everyone at once.

**rubiksnoob**

Not sure which of the PRISM/Snowden threads this would be most appropriate to post to, but this one is the closest to the top and the more people that get this information the better:

Spoiler:

**Fafnir**

rubiksnoob wrote:
Not sure which of the PRISM/Snowden threads this would be most appropriate to post to, but this one is the closest to the top and the more people that get this information the better:

Spoiler:

That video is the most beautiful thing that can come from the NSA scandal. We should definitely incorporate that into our daily lives.

**purplefood**

Isn't it Tinker, Tailor, Soldier Spy?

**xole**

purplefood wrote:
Isn't it Tinker, Tailor, Soldier Spy?

Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy is a Star Trek episode. So either would be valid thread titles.

**Sigvatr**

azazel the cat wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:Those people betray their very own country - I can't think of anything less moral or correct one could do besides terrorism.

Just like that damned Oskar Schindler, who also betrayed his country?

Are you seriously setting a genocide on the same level as PRISM? That's got to be one of the most offensive things I have read recently. It's highly disrespectful for any family who lost people to the nazis in WWII and I highly hope you just went over the top there for a bit. I'm used to other posts by you.

**Fafnir**

That's irrelevant. You set the moral precedent. You can't feign indignation when you've placed the bar.

**Krellnus**

Indeed Fafnir.