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 CannedKhorne wrote:
Makes perfect scene. How many points do your squads come to?

Don't have the codex on me but it ranges from around 265-300 and change. Depending on how you kit out the squad. Once I get my hands on my codex from home I could give you more specifics.


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 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

Then don't. I usually run Huron as my only HQ in lower point games. Fabulous Bill just sounds like a barrel of laughs. If you don't want to go for the lulz and would rather go straight competitive, you should just spend the points on Mr Blackheart. He allows you to infiltrate at least one of those CSM blobs so they can either start dakka-ing at the midfield line or start running towards the enemy in a frenzy.

 gpfunk wrote:

 CannedKhorne wrote:
Makes perfect scene. How many points do your squads come to?

Don't have the codex on me but it ranges from around 265-300 and change. Depending on how you kit out the squad. Once I get my hands on my codex from home I could give you more specifics.


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 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

Then don't. I usually run Huron as my only HQ in lower point games. Fabulous Bill just sounds like a barrel of laughs. If you don't want to go for the lulz and would rather go straight competitive, you should just spend the points on Mr Blackheart. He allows you to infiltrate at least one of those CSM blobs so they can either start dakka-ing at the midfield line or start running towards the enemy in a frenzy.

I really like the concept of hordes of mid-field marines shooting bolters, its a lot of shooting honestly, I am debating on giving them both CCW like you said and slow walk up the board shooting bolters/ maybe even rapid firing and walking to a future assault.

I am just concerned that staying on a objective with bolters, and then having purchased close CCW weapons will be a waste of 40 pts. I am trying to determine the tactics when having both weapons.

Huron is a badass HQ though, I have never used him, I plan to soon.

For bolter vs ccw, I think if you're looking for a midfield squad, I'd pick bolters.

I had originally thought of a more aggressive force, for claiming objectives and getting into the opponents backfield.

With 20 Noise Marines you can shoot ~ 38 AP5 ignores cover shots, after moving 6" forward. They are practically guaranteed to kill a squad the first turn, and they threaten anything within 18" the second turn. It's one of those tactics that can backfire spectacularly, but it also screams "DEAL WITH ME OR ELSE" and that has immense value. While the entire opposing army is scrambling to shoot or avoid that unit, the rest of your army is doing whatever it wants to do.

minigun762 wrote:I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

But look at what you get. The cost is high, but the value for what you spend is still good.

CannedKhorne wrote:Thoughts on Bolters or CCW?

As cool as the cheap bolt pistol and CCW are, I think I'd still take the bolter, because you can just do more with it. Longer range, better Ap, less risk of use, etc. With a BP+CCW on the charge, you get .66 Ap5 hits and 1 or 1.5 Ap- hits. With the bolters, you get 1.66 Ap5 hits shooting them (followed up by overwatch), and then .5 or .33 Ap- hits in close combat. Put another way, you're seeing a practical maximum average of 2.1 hits with the BP+CCW, most of which are Ap- and comparing it to 2.1 hits with the bolter, most of which are Ap5.

And then you add back in the bolter's longer range, etc., and the bolt gun is just better. Of course, you could always buy dudes with close combat weapons. A squad of 20 could take 10 CCWs for 1 point per model average, and put them in the back of the squad. No sense giving weapon upgrades to the guys in the front who are going to be killed off before you ever make it into close combat anyways.

My new list is going to be Mr. Blackheart with one 20 man squad, a 10 man terminator squad, and another 20 man squad. That should get peoples attention, until my heldrake comes in a starts torrenting them, as my vindicator and forgefiend sit in the back field blowing gak up!

True it sounds great but this is a game of chance and skill. but I personally think it is a fun list to play, that really offers a lot versatility, and a lot of prime targets to choose from.

Anyone thought of Ahriman to replace huron and a sorcerer? He is expensive, but three rolls on telepathy, whoo that sounds fun!

Too big of a tax really. As you said, he only gets 3 rolls on useful tables. He wants to shoot, but then buffs are better.. He has mace which isn't that good in CC especially for his point cost.

However, mass MEQ blobs is the only place where I can see him quite potent, replacing Huron and adding some buffs and mid range psychic dakka. That is if you group agrees with infiltration RAI, not RAW as it is now, which prohibits you to infiltrate IC's.

Now I'm tempted to give Ahri another go...

I'd go MoS for IoE and then tag on Fabius Bile for some S5, I5, FNP, and Fearless marines.

You're not getting much that huron and a lvl 2 sorcerer can't accomplish for the same price. Plus, the tyrant's claw gives armorbane and shred, which makes him more useful in close combat.

Moreover, other than the fact that he guarantees master of deception, he isn't even that much better than a lvl 3 sorcerer, a sorcerer who actually has options like terminator armor, etc.

 CannedKhorne wrote:
I really like the concept of hordes of mid-field marines shooting bolters, its a lot of shooting honestly, I am debating on giving them both CCW like you said and slow walk up the board shooting bolters/ maybe even rapid firing and walking to a future assault.

I am just concerned that staying on a objective with bolters, and then having purchased close CCW weapons will be a waste of 40 pts. I am trying to determine the tactics when having both weapons.

I don't consider them wasted just because of the tactical versatility it allows me. I have a lot of dakka and can cut any enemy trying to charge me down to size, and then, if they fail a long charge critically I can counter charge them next turm and do some massive damage. If they succeed then I still get the two attacks per model which can do some serious damage in blob numbers. I also consider the intangible benefits of having the extra attacks. Telling someone that you've got a blob of 20 3+ save models with three attacks each on the charge is usually enough to make them think twice.

And that's what it is for me. Having the bolters and the CCW mean that the CSM cannot be ignored in shooting or assault. They represent a tangible threat in every phase and they are hard to shift. Then you think about the fact that you'll have even shootier and more offensively minded units that will be doing damage every turn. So they choose to shoot at a very durable and dangerous troop choice, or they attempt to deal with your shooty/choppy support units. It's a lose lose situation for them.

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

That's funny, I run Ahriman and an allied 305 point Lord of Change every game.

They honestly do really well. Infiltrate is invaluable and Ahriman can just delete whole squads by himself if they fail deny the witch. Extra fun when he rolls up Iron Arm.

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

That's funny, I run Ahriman and an allied 305 point Lord of Change every game.

They honestly do really well. Infiltrate is invaluable and Ahriman can just delete whole squads by himself if they fail deny the witch. Extra fun when he rolls up Iron Arm.

I think people underestimate Ahriman. He's incredibly powerful, and appropriately costed. Gets the best warlord trait in the book. A lot of folks overlook him because he only makes 1k Sons troops. He has incredible offensive potential though.

 gpfunk wrote:

 CannedKhorne wrote:
I really like the concept of hordes of mid-field marines shooting bolters, its a lot of shooting honestly, I am debating on giving them both CCW like you said and slow walk up the board shooting bolters/ maybe even rapid firing and walking to a future assault.

I am just concerned that staying on a objective with bolters, and then having purchased close CCW weapons will be a waste of 40 pts. I am trying to determine the tactics when having both weapons.

I don't consider them wasted just because of the tactical versatility it allows me. I have a lot of dakka and can cut any enemy trying to charge me down to size, and then, if they fail a long charge critically I can counter charge them next turm and do some massive damage. If they succeed then I still get the two attacks per model which can do some serious damage in blob numbers. I also consider the intangible benefits of having the extra attacks. Telling someone that you've got a blob of 20 3+ save models with three attacks each on the charge is usually enough to make them think twice.

And that's what it is for me. Having the bolters and the CCW mean that the CSM cannot be ignored in shooting or assault. They represent a tangible threat in every phase and they are hard to shift. Then you think about the fact that you'll have even shootier and more offensively minded units that will be doing damage every turn. So they choose to shoot at a very durable and dangerous troop choice, or they attempt to deal with your shooty/choppy support units. It's a lose lose situation for them.

Your right, I think CCW and Bolters are very tactical versatile.

What would be the common tactic for such a sqaud, and if you plan to run two would you have them do different roles in the game?

Would you always play them as Mid-Field objective holders for fire support and just wait for someone to charge and then kick some ass in mid-field? What army would be best to leave mid-field and bolter fire until time to charge into there front lines... Tau?

I depends heavily on the scenario at hand, but I am just trying to get an idea for optimal tactics.


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k

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

That's funny, I run Ahriman and an allied 305 point Lord of Change every game.

They honestly do really well. Infiltrate is invaluable and Ahriman can just delete whole squads by himself if they fail deny the witch. Extra fun when he rolls up Iron Arm.

Ahriman with 3 Oblitz for amssive fire power!! Haha, I don't play tzeentch for fluff reasons so it my suck...

Considering the point difference between a power weapon and giving the entire squad uber grit, I'd rather spend the points of boosting my champion.

 minigun762 wrote:
Considering the point difference between a power weapon and giving the entire squad uber grit, I'd rather spend the points of boosting my champion.

You'll always get more out of boosting the squad. I leave my champs naked so they can tank a character for a round before dying a glorious death for Khorne. My champions have never returned their investment. Even when I kit them out with a decent power weapon. Those extra AP- attacks always net me more kills-per-point than the maul or axe on the champ. It's either 15 points that never get used effectively or 40 points that get used every combat.


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 CannedKhorne wrote:
Your right, I think CCW and Bolters are very tactical versatile.

What would be the common tactic for such a sqaud, and if you plan to run two would you have them do different roles in the game?

Would you always play them as Mid-Field objective holders for fire support and just wait for someone to charge and then kick some ass in mid-field? What army would be best to leave mid-field and bolter fire until time to charge into there front lines... Tau?

I depends heavily on the scenario at hand, but I am just trying to get an idea for optimal tactics.

In general, you shoot what's choppy and you chop what's shooty. Generally against Tau you're going to want to press the issue. They can already remove your cover and put a lot of dakka into you, so sitting and trading shots with them is exactly the game they want you to play. Against other Space Marines, it's a toss up. Personally, I'll take my chances trading shots with them in the midfield because I have more bodies than they do. The thing with Ubergrit is it allows you to adapt to the army, it's very TAC. But as a catch all rule, pressure units that suck worse than you in CC and dakka those that are better than you in CC.

Both of my CSM blobs are identical and fulfill the same role. They occupy midfield and either press forward or maintain field presence. If you want to save points then you can have one unit be all Bolters and one be all CCW. They'll fulfill a specific role in that case. Bolters sit, score and dakka midfield. CCWs charge forward for the Kreamed Korn and take back field objectives and lock people in their deployment zone.

 gpfunk wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Considering the point difference between a power weapon and giving the entire squad uber grit, I'd rather spend the points of boosting my champion.

You'll always get more out of boosting the squad. I leave my champs naked so they can tank a character for a round before dying a glorious death for Khorne. My champions have never returned their investment. Even when I kit them out with a decent power weapon. Those extra AP- attacks always net me more kills-per-point than the maul or axe on the champ. It's either 15 points that never get used effectively or 40 points that get used every combat.


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 CannedKhorne wrote:
Your right, I think CCW and Bolters are very tactical versatile.

What would be the common tactic for such a sqaud, and if you plan to run two would you have them do different roles in the game?

Would you always play them as Mid-Field objective holders for fire support and just wait for someone to charge and then kick some ass in mid-field? What army would be best to leave mid-field and bolter fire until time to charge into there front lines... Tau?

I depends heavily on the scenario at hand, but I am just trying to get an idea for optimal tactics.

In general, you shoot what's choppy and you chop what's shooty. Generally against Tau you're going to want to press the issue. They can already remove your cover and put a lot of dakka into you, so sitting and trading shots with them is exactly the game they want you to play. Against other Space Marines, it's a toss up. Personally, I'll take my chances trading shots with them in the midfield because I have more bodies than they do. The thing with Ubergrit is it allows you to adapt to the army, it's very TAC. But as a catch all rule, pressure units that suck worse than you in CC and dakka those that are better than you in CC.

Both of my CSM blobs are identical and fulfill the same role. They occupy midfield and either press forward or maintain field presence. If you want to save points then you can have one unit be all Bolters and one be all CCW. They'll fulfill a specific role in that case. Bolters sit, score and dakka midfield. CCWs charge forward for the Kreamed Korn and take back field objectives and lock people in their deployment zone.

I like two squads with both CCW weapon and Bolter. I am going to go make a list now with these two units and see how I like it. I can't wait to test it out.

Do you add any PG or a Autocannon to the mix, or just leave it plan and simple?

Against MEQs, 19 extra attacks will kill about 1.5 extra marines. A single claw will kill one extra. CCW are 2.5 times as expensive for half a wound extra.

Not totally sold on it, but not opposed either.

 minigun762 wrote:
Against MEQs, 19 extra attacks will kill about 1.5 extra marines. A single claw will kill one extra. CCW are 2.5 times as expensive for half a wound extra.

Not totally sold on it, but not opposed either.

I believe the issue is that the champion is probably going to get in a challenge with something better than him and die before striking.

And not every unit in the game has 3+ armour.

I'd field them with bolters and an ADL

MoN will get you far. Huron can also help out a LOT here.

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Against MEQs, 19 extra attacks will kill about 1.5 extra marines. A single claw will kill one extra. CCW are 2.5 times as expensive for half a wound extra.

Not totally sold on it, but not opposed either.

I believe the issue is that the champion is probably going to get in a challenge with something better than him and die before striking.

And not every unit in the game has 3+ armour.

That makes perfect sense but the flipside is giving your Champion an edge against other squad leaders meand you're getting boon rolls and removing their champion.

The whole forced challenge rule is a real gamble to be sure.

Part of me is just annoyed that they charge so much for that extra CCW.

After reading this thread, I had to try them out.

I took
Nurgle lord with a murder sword and 4++.
Level 3 sorc, spell familiar burning brand.
19 CSM with 16 ccw's and 2 flamers.
20 plague marines with 2 flamers.
2 helldrakes
2 tri plas preds.

guard allies
company command with las cannon,
vendetta with meltavets

I got lucky and got invis and endurance.

I ran the 19 marines up to the midfield objective with the chaos lord and and with invis and endurance up they were just godly. Full necron shooting phase (so much tesla) and 6 wraith assault only killed 5 of them, then I slowly ground down the wraiths.

Overall, they did much better than the 30 cultist I usually have running around with my chaos lord.

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I don't like having to invest 300+ points in your HQ selection. That's my concern.

That's funny, I run Ahriman and an allied 305 point Lord of Change every game.

They honestly do really well. Infiltrate is invaluable and Ahriman can just delete whole squads by himself if they fail deny the witch. Extra fun when he rolls up Iron Arm.

Ahriman with 3 Oblitz for amssive fire power!! Haha, I don't play tzeentch for fluff reasons so it my suck...

Tzeentch as a whole sucks in the current codex.

Looks like the lord of change will have to wait another four years.

 CannedKhorne wrote:
I like two squads with both CCW weapon and Bolter. I am going to go make a list now with these two units and see how I like it. I can't wait to test it out.

Do you add any PG or a Autocannon to the mix, or just leave it plan and simple?

I haven't ever used heavy weapons in my troops choices. I always run 2 x plasma generally as I like to occupy midfield. Melta guns work well too, just realize that you won't be getting as much return for your investment in exchange for higher reliability against vehicles that stray too close. You could try out a heavy weapon if you want. Especially if you plan on making a campfire on an objective, could add some serious firepower to the squad. Only problem is snap shots whenever you move, so it removes some of that tactical flexibility I like about the squad. You want to have the freedom to shift position if you need to advance or retreat, having a heavy weapon gives your mind pause as you think if you'd rather have those autocannon shots or field position, the latter generally being more useful.


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 minigun762 wrote:

 Nitros14 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Against MEQs, 19 extra attacks will kill about 1.5 extra marines. A single claw will kill one extra. CCW are 2.5 times as expensive for half a wound extra.

Not totally sold on it, but not opposed either.

I believe the issue is that the champion is probably going to get in a challenge with something better than him and die before striking.

And not every unit in the game has 3+ armour.

That makes perfect sense but the flipside is giving your Champion an edge against other squad leaders meand you're getting boon rolls and removing their champion.

The whole forced challenge rule is a real gamble to be sure.

Part of me is just annoyed that they charge so much for that extra CCW.

Part of me is annoyed that Champions of Chaos have to challenge, or I would always run power weapons on them. And that other person is right. Not everyone has 3+. Works even better versus hordes of orks and guardsmen, tau even. That claw isn't going to return its points at all if he ever comes against a serious IC. I go for the safer gamble. I always get those extra attacks, regardless of the circumstances. They can't challenge out all of the little CSM individually.

I think to have the most versatility, the CCW for the squad is a better choice than the power weapon just on a champ, if extra points are there grab both, but comparing the two I would buff the squad.

333 points for 20 marines with bolter/CCW with IoV. Is it worth it? Mid-field fire, walking up the board or infiltrated shooting bolters until time to assault? Good objective holders aslo...

Thoughts?

Take 20 csm MoK with bolters, 2 plasguns and votlw Throw in a cheap termie lord MoK or vanilla with a pf/LC (or AoBF).

Footslog mid.

Shoot at 24" 1 shot (18x st4 ap5 + 2x str 7 ap2)
When you get to the 12" rapidfire. giving up assault (36x str 4 ap5 + 4x str 7 ap2) The extra attack you get from the charge... YOU GET FROM THE RAPID FIRE. ITS MUCH EASIER TO SET UP A RAPID FIRE THAN A ASSAULT WITH 6E RHINOS. ITS AP5. (they get cover) YOU ALWAYS HIT ON 3+ (as oppose to 4+ equal or worse ws) YOU GET 1/6x EXTRA ATTACKS FROM OVERWATCH. (you lose attacks in subsequent rounds of cc) (YOU SHOULDNT NEED THEM IN SUBSEQUENT ROUNDS OF SHOOTING AOBF IS SILLY + 60 STR4 CC ATTACKS ISNT ANYTHING TO BE SNEEZED AT)
Overwatch (6x str 4 ap5)
Counter attack (60x str 4 ap- i4 + 6-12(deamon)x str 6 ap2 i5)
Challenge with your Aspiring champ leaving your AoBF free to carve up.

=50 str 4 ap5 shots, 6 str 7 ap2, 60 str 4 (cc), 6-12 str 6 ap2 (cc). I missed out a few little extras- like the lords shooting and the extra attack on the aspiring champ... still...

Dont forget votlw rerolling hits against 2/3 of the armies out there.

With:
20w t4 3+, 3w t4 2+ 5++

Note:
termie lord can be a bad idea for sweeping. if aobf consider power armour.

Thank me later. (SOZ MY CAPS KEEPS BREAKING)

Only thing that compares is the fab bile combos. Unmarked sorc is a fun thing too.
The problem with these blobs is you use one (or worse 2) of your hqs up. Our hqs are our (possibly) best slots. Is it really worth it to make one good csm squad? There are better army modifiers and csm troops that really dont need you to sink an hq for every unit to make them decent. Plague marines + noise marines. KB are trash :(.

CC csm is dead! Muhahahahahahaa i said it.

It's just not that easy. Remember that it should be two turns of assault which should be compared to one turn of shooting and the unit assaulted will also have a different damage output when in close combat, but very interesting indeed.

Ithani wrote:
Take 20 csm MoK with bolters, 2 plasguns and votlw Throw in a cheap termie lord MoK or vanilla with a pf/LC (or AoBF).

Footslog mid.

Shoot at 24" 1 shot (18x st4 ap5 + 2x str 7 ap2)
When you get to the 12" rapidfire. giving up assault (36x str 4 ap5 + 4x str 7 ap2) The extra attack you get from the charge... YOU GET FROM THE RAPID FIRE. ITS MUCH EASIER TO SET UP A RAPID FIRE THAN A ASSAULT WITH 6E RHINOS. ITS AP5. (they get cover) YOU ALWAYS HIT ON 3+ (as oppose to 4+ equal or worse ws) YOU GET 1/6x EXTRA ATTACKS FROM OVERWATCH. (you lose attacks in subsequent rounds of cc) (YOU SHOULDNT NEED THEM IN SUBSEQUENT ROUNDS OF SHOOTING AOBF IS SILLY + 60 STR4 CC ATTACKS ISNT ANYTHING TO BE SNEEZED AT)
Overwatch (6x str 4 ap5)
Counter attack (60x str 4 ap- i4 + 6-12(deamon)x str 6 ap2 i5)
Challenge with your Aspiring champ leaving your AoBF free to carve up.

=50 str 4 ap5 shots, 6 str 7 ap2, 60 str 4 (cc), 6-12 str 6 ap2 (cc). I missed out a few little extras- like the lords shooting and the extra attack on the aspiring champ... still...

Dont forget votlw rerolling hits against 2/3 of the armies out there.

With:
20w t4 3+, 3w t4 2+ 5++

Note:
termie lord can be a bad idea for sweeping. if aobf consider power armour.

Thank me later. (SOZ MY CAPS KEEPS BREAKING)

Only thing that compares is the fab bile combos. Unmarked sorc is a fun thing too.
The problem with these blobs is you use one (or worse 2) of your hqs up. Our hqs are our (possibly) best slots. Is it really worth it to make one good csm squad? There are better army modifiers and csm troops that really dont need you to sink an hq for every unit to make them decent. Plague marines + noise marines. KB are trash :(.

CC csm is dead! Muhahahahahahaa i said it.

Did you give them CCW and Bolters?

Just the bolter and their base attack. 20x csm, 2 plasma, MoK, VoTLW + Lord MoK AoBF VoTLW. (id consider giving the aspiring champ a power sword so he could trade out with a sergeant)

But then im bad and gave them an extra attack in cc. I also get the lords attacks wrong because i just took one attack off my juggerlord for giving up the charge when i should have taken another off for the jugger as well.

Ithani wrote:

Counter attack (60x str 4 ap- i4 + 6-12(deamon)x str 6 ap2 i5)

It should be 40x str 4 ap - i4 + 5-11(deamon) x str 6 ap2 i5

Sorry silly mistake.

Um as far as worrying about the 2nd round of combat- i5 on the lord is pretty handy (against i4 esp) and you have a great chance to clean up at the start of the 2nd round of combat (if there is one) but if you take the lord out the csm blob is still ahead on attacks for the first round of combat compared to the alternatives.

This csm blob is the most efficient cc blob that csm have against and is especially powerful (op even) against marine armies (rerolling votlw) up to the i5 step in the 2nd cc phase. If by then you havent done critical damage by the second i5 round of combat then you break even and if you get stuck in the 3rd round of combat then the extra cc wep + other MoK/MoN/MoS builds become stronger alternatives.

At the end of the day i just dont c any reliable way of getting csm troopies a charge without setting up the cc with bait or sacking another unit. Id just use the bolters and plasmas (alsoa serious threat) and encourage them to come to you in an engagement you can actually control.


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Not to say you cant put the extra ccw on if you want. but its about keeping it cheap. Id rather save the points myself. Its 20 more attacks in the first and subsequent rounds of combat but you take the bolters first.