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 Mad4Minis wrote:

Daner0023 wrote:
The fault of Warmachine in this regard is that games can be won or lost in 20 minutes, which is a downer for someone.

Im one of those people. I also dont like the fact that everything important happens within the casters control range...so the majority of the game is taking place on 18 inches or less of the table. Terrain is pointless as you cant maneuver around it without getting outside of CR.

I love the hit and damage system, some of the special rules/abilities are very cool...but a couple of the key mechanics really brings the game down for me.

For the battle group, perhaps. Flanking models, solos, jack marshalls, extended control range, and ambushing units say otherwise. I'm not sure what type of terrain you're using, but most things SHOULD be happening directly with in control range (remember, average 12in CR in either direction + 1.5in base = 25.5 inches of a 48 inch wide board). It's kind of harder to be outside of it than in it. Especially if you play killbox.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

Daner0023 wrote:
The fault of Warmachine in this regard is that games can be won or lost in 20 minutes, which is a downer for someone.

Im one of those people. I also dont like the fact that everything important happens within the casters control range...so the majority of the game is taking place on 18 inches or less of the table. Terrain is pointless as you cant maneuver around it without getting outside of CR.

I love the hit and damage system, some of the special rules/abilities are very cool...but a couple of the key mechanics really brings the game down for me.

Yeah...most games don't end in 20 mins. If they constantly do, one side is doing something very very wrong...

Also, infantry don't rely on your control range most of the time. Only warjacks/beasts do.

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

No, there is nothing wrong with that, although how Fantasy is suppose to be like (I.E Rank and file, units in formation), the rules Warmachine/ Hordes have would mostly complement 40k more in my honest opinion. There is Kings of War for your fantasy needs, and I have good things about the ruleset (Not played it myself, but this is from a few friend). And if you do play Blindwater Congregation or Thornfall alliance, you will not have that much of unit/ Warnoun choices to choose from compared to Main factions, just to keep in mind a bit.

When Mantic puts a magic system in KoW on par with that in Warhams I'll be keen as. I much prefer the whole not removing casualties thing and the speed and simplicity of their rules overall, interesting magic is all those rules are lacking at the moment.

I've heard stuff like that from other people as well... I guess being "minions" they're sort of like half a faction instead of a fully fleshed out one. Guess I'll have to find a main faction to back up my Pigs of War

For me, the major things that made me like wm better are

Reliability: by this, I mean that I can generally expect certain things from certain models without randomness issues. Oh, and when bob gets punched in the face by a giant robot, bob dies. (Not a fan of the 1/6 to not wound with a giant cannon on a grot)

The rules mean what they say.

A company that cares about me. Regular updates AND spoilers for upcoming things.

To be fair, there is an entire faction based on having a 1/3 chance of not dying when punched by anything, jack, colossal etc

Sining wrote:
To be fair, there is an entire faction based on having a 1/3 chance of not dying when punched by anything, jack, colossal etc

What trolls

(had to be done)

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

No, there is nothing wrong with that, although how Fantasy is suppose to be like (I.E Rank and file, units in formation), the rules Warmachine/ Hordes have would mostly complement 40k more in my honest opinion. There is Kings of War for your fantasy needs, and I have good things about the ruleset (Not played it myself, but this is from a few friend). And if you do play Blindwater Congregation or Thornfall alliance, you will not have that much of unit/ Warnoun choices to choose from compared to Main factions, just to keep in mind a bit.

When Mantic puts a magic system in KoW on par with that in Warhams I'll be keen as. I much prefer the whole not removing casualties thing and the speed and simplicity of their rules overall, interesting magic is all those rules are lacking at the moment.

I've heard stuff like that from other people as well... I guess being "minions" they're sort of like half a faction instead of a fully fleshed out one. Guess I'll have to find a main faction to back up my Pigs of War

Yeah, and it goes for Mercs as well in the Warmachine part of it. Not saying they cannot be played on their own, but with no real starter set like the main factions and so on, they are not that Beginner friendly and to get starting up as well. If you can find a friend who might be interested as well, try to aim for the two-player battlebox set, as that is a great bang for your buck in my honest opinion.

The 1/3 chance to not die doesnt work for warbeasts though, which is pretty big. If they had that too, good grief......

Also, yes GW has some better models than PP theres no doubt about that and their plastic is way better (though TO HELL with finecast). However, this is really only for more important models such as MCs, bigger vehicles, HQs, and a few random models here and there. PP their entire lineup looks pretty damn good and doesnt devour your pocket in the process.
Only one race for PP i think looks kinda funny, and thats because i think they look a little to alien with their sleek warjack designs n such (name escapes me....) which doesnt fit in a steampunk/fantasy world.

Also i like how some people were comparing Fantasy Battle to PP models. Who cares if the models are better when the game is absolute garbage lol. 8th edition completely and utterly killed that game...and the models are STILL expensive as hell!

Skaven have some sweet things. I thought of jumping to WHFB for those, but the cost of entry is too high and play opportunity too low myself.

As for cost of things, I opened a spreadsheet yesterday to see how much Circle Orboros and Minions support I have, and it totaled to about $1,770 without including books, acessories, bags, foam, or painting. That is a lot but it includes at least one of everyting in Circle (including maximum units) and quite a few repeats of warbeasts, solos, units, and all that. This includes twelve warlocks, enough to play to 150pt games pretty easily if the desire came to me, and built up over the course of six and a half years. Not sure how this compares to WHFB but I remember trying to build a Bloodbowl team and that in itself being over $100. If this adds anything to the pile.

And stuffl

 Blaque wrote:
Skaven have some sweet things. I thought of jumping to WHFB for those, but the cost of entry is too high and play opportunity too low myself.

As for cost of things, I opened a spreadsheet yesterday to see how much Circle Orboros and Minions support I have, and it totaled to about $1,770 without including books, acessories, bags, foam, or painting. That is a lot but it includes at least one of everyting in Circle (including maximum units) and quite a few repeats of warbeasts, solos, units, and all that. This includes twelve warlocks, enough to play to 150pt games pretty easily if the desire came to me, and built up over the course of six and a half years. Not sure how this compares to WHFB but I remember trying to build a Bloodbowl team and that in itself being over $100. If this adds anything to the pile.

And stuffl

To put it in perspective for anyone who may not be familiar with the game, Blaque has a tremendously large collection. He is a fully committed enthusiast of his chosen faction and has more things in his collection than some people with two tournament-ready factions.

This is correct. As noted, it's kind of ridiculously a lot compared to what one needs to have three or four casters for tournament play.

And stuff.

Well that's my main issue with the difference in companies.

What little I have for Trollbloods wouldn't even get me started in a GW game. That and setup time isn't so lengthy IMO.

Blaque wrote:Skaven have some sweet things. I thought of jumping to WHFB for those, but the cost of entry is too high and play opportunity too low myself.

As for cost of things, I opened a spreadsheet yesterday to see how much Circle Orboros and Minions support I have, and it totaled to about $1,770 without including books, acessories, bags, foam, or painting. That is a lot but it includes at least one of everyting in Circle (including maximum units) and quite a few repeats of warbeasts, solos, units, and all that. This includes twelve warlocks, enough to play to 150pt games pretty easily if the desire came to me, and built up over the course of six and a half years. Not sure how this compares to WHFB but I remember trying to build a Bloodbowl team and that in itself being over $100. If this adds anything to the pile.

And stuffl

1770?

I have about 750 worth of trollbloods and i honestly only think i need a few more models...maybe another 100 unless i wanna get a mountainking. Most of this are models i probably wont use since i tend to like the Warbeast spammers over infantry spammers, so i doubt i'll ever use max Krielwarriors and Fennblades in the same game lol (actually i havent even seen a use for fennblades yet without going heavy heavy infantry).

However, 40k wise.....i have about 2400+ of orks alone and i also have some tau (nowhere near as much, i'd say ~800). Most of those orks i got off ebay for cheap or kitbashed. Hell, i know 1250 worth of it i got for half of since that was a single auction for new in box orks lol. You have easily the largest army you'd ever need PERIOD for a single race, i have enough to say i can do every tactic except straight Warbiker lists for 40k lol. PP is still way cheaper.

$1,770 in market value. I actually paid a bit less than that since a lot of the models I have I got discounted or before PP did a price increase due to material costs and inflation back in 2008 (they haven't done anything like that since, probably due to the use of plastics to stabalize things).

Doing maths in the spreadsheet for points, it's 282pts. right now. This isn't counting warlocks, which average to about 5pts each and so with them it'd be 342pts.

The amount you get out of this in WM/H is kind of notable with how resuable things are too. Since a model doesn't have widgets on it to alter for rules, that 10pt. Warpwolf Stalker I have is good for all my lists. That 342 pts. of model can do much more of it total in lists. As I understand in WHFB or 40K, this is not exactly the case, as oftentimes you have to build for a specific list. I'm not so well-versed in its systems though, so am going to caveat there now.

And stuff.

 Blaque wrote:
$1,770 in market value. I actually paid a bit less than that since a lot of the models I have I got discounted or before PP did a price increase due to material costs and inflation back in 2008 (they haven't done anything like that since, probably due to the use of plastics to stabalize things).

Doing maths in the spreadsheet for points, it's 282pts. right now. This isn't counting warlocks, which average to about 5pts each and so with them it'd be 342pts.

The amount you get out of this in WM/H is kind of notable with how resuable things are too. Since a model doesn't have widgets on it to alter for rules, that 10pt. Warpwolf Stalker I have is good for all my lists. That 342 pts. of model can do much more of it total in lists. As I understand in WHFB or 40K, this is not exactly the case, as oftentimes you have to build for a specific list. I'm not so well-versed in its systems though, so am going to caveat there now.

And stuff.

The thing is I helped out at an apoc game where it was nids vs. guard and it was 10k on both sides. It was one whole guys collection of nids vs. another guys whole collection of guard. Looking back at the pics on my phone there had to be at least 5k+ dollars worth of figs involved in that game easy.

I would say there is more stuff in the average collection of a 40k player for three reasons: 1) 40k generally plays a larger scale 2) The game has been out longer 3) since models need to WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) for tournaments and what not this leads to people owning more figures too since you end buying more to give yourself more options.

Also just on a side note having 2d6 base for most actions is a wonderful thing in my opinion, since it makes a bell curve instead of a flat probability distribution. I like the fact that I can say something like "on average, this unit will hit" and actually have it mean something.

40k is only a flat probability when single dice rolls are looked at.

Since the vast majority of actions will involve multiple dice there is almost never a situation in 40k that is really a flat probability, 10 tactical marines firing their bolters is a curve. Warmachine is really no different in this respect. 2D6 is simply the combination of 2 single D6 rolls.

In 40k I can say that on average my squad of 10 marines firing their bolters will get roughly 7 hits.

Aye, if you look at it from the point of view of entire squads you are completely correct. I just like having every single action work that way.

6th ED game mechanics + codex + costs really let the door open for PP press to gain customers. The cost to game is very reasonable (comparative speaking) and the rule set is well thought out.

TIME! Time is the key issue for me to switch over to WM/H. It takes a lot less time to play a game of WM/H compared to 40K now.

And quite honestly I am getting tired seeing Robohammer.

I have some Legion. Kinda like the models, and enjoy the idea of the rules. Haven't played, and its because of the actual hobby stuff. Converting WMH feels kinda pointless, as it kinda muddies the rules for me, as my conversions might change something.
The models themselves are kinda a pain to assemble for resin or whatever they are, small gaps here and there is enough for me to slow down building the faction.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

PP is slightly lacking in the model quality department. Some of their plastics don't fit together well, and the kind of plastic they use isn't helping.

I have actually stopped building my convergence because i hate their plastics so much. I am looking at about $550 worth of models sitting on a shelf because of the dislike of it. I guess you get what you pay for, I will eventually put the models together but not when i have other models that i might enjoy putting together.

Sargow wrote:
I have actually stopped building my convergence because i hate their plastics so much. I am looking at about $550 worth of models sitting on a shelf because of the dislike of it. I guess you get what you pay for, I will eventually put the models together but not when i have other models that i might enjoy putting together.

Darn shame. I really want to start with convergence. I'm not liking this news.

Also, before you mentioned you were going to put them together I was going to offer to buy them

I just had my first game of 40k last night and loved it!! Yeah I got hammered by tau but I'm looking forward to my next game. I also saw some guys playing warmachine I didn't think much of the models to be honest.

I have recently picked up WMH myself. It seems to me that the big difference as far as the meta-game is the aforementioned most models do find some sort of use, unlike 40k which specifically makes some units useful and others not so much, and in the fact that you have a lot more options, like, I'm playing Captain Bartolo Montador, who has access to a wide range of models and things to work with, even those completely unrelated to himself(I'm going to play a strict-Themed list of sea dogs and naval units, but that's personal preference on my part), this differs from say, Ghazghkull Thraka who, while a good HQ on his own, is hampered by his own gakky codex being all he has access to. As far as list-building and meta-game, options is the big difference.


As far as gameplay, it's the speed with which you play is the big difference to me. A game that would take two to three hours in 40k, takes like 20 minutes in WMH. So it's much easier to play multiple games and really get into who is the more skilled player/list-builder, because straight luck becomes less of a factor when the games are shorter. There's also fewer models you have to buy to play the game so it's much cheaper than 40k to get started in.

And lastly, just from a company standpoint, there seems to be a much greater effort to keep the game balanced, it's not like 40k where you have to keep the sheer numbers of SM players happy and coming back. You can keep it balanced because you're not relying on say, just Khador to be your big seller.

At least those are my initial observations.

 Sword Of Caliban wrote:
I just had my first game of 40k last night and loved it!! Yeah I got hammered by tau but I'm looking forward to my next game. I also saw some guys playing warmachine I didn't think much of the models to be honest.

Warmahordes is less about the models and more about the game play. The models are cool figures, but for all rules purposes could be replaced with empty bases.

I like it because of that. Its something I can play competitively while also having the painting experience. While 40k is more about really cool models.

 Grey Templar wrote:
PP is slightly lacking in the model quality department. Some of their plastics don't fit together well, and the kind of plastic they use isn't helping.

I was impressed by the Retribution models due to the really good way they make the joins. Left leg only fits on the left side and I managed to glue some of my jacks with plastic glue to hold together quite nicely before I got the the arm joins and realized a) I need to pin these because glue will not hold (I don't trust glue) and b) this isn't plastic, this is resin.

And then I got to Mage Hunter Strike Force and those crossbows turned my life into a couple of hours of misery and green stuff. But the MHSF are metal, not plastic nor resin, so that is to be expected.

Still, I like Warmachine models. Just don't be fooled into thinking they are plastic.

 Mahtamori wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
PP is slightly lacking in the model quality department. Some of their plastics don't fit together well, and the kind of plastic they use isn't helping.

I was impressed by the Retribution models due to the really good way they make the joins. Left leg only fits on the left side and I managed to glue some of my jacks with plastic glue to hold together quite nicely before I got the the arm joins and realized a) I need to pin these because glue will not hold (I don't trust glue) and b) this isn't plastic, this is resin.

And then I got to Mage Hunter Strike Force and those crossbows turned my life into a couple of hours of misery and green stuff. But the MHSF are metal, not plastic nor resin, so that is to be expected.

Still, I like Warmachine models. Just don't be fooled into thinking they are plastic.

They're plastic. PVC, to be precise.

Use Superglue on the warmahordes Kits.. plastic glue you use on GW doesn't work on PP models that good.

 Trazyn the Murderous wrote:
I'm sure this has probably been asked before, but is there anything that makes Warmahordes better than 40k or vice versa? Thanks in advance.

I guess you have not been in miniature gaming as long as I do. Otherwise, you will not even bother to ask this question. I refuse to consider 40K at all for the following reasons:
1. All my old 40K models are outdated. Imagine the money you spent and time you painted going into a waste in a few years. That is unacceptable. Same has not happened so far with WM.
2. GW does not back up their products. Before they wore down their official forum, any word that mentioned "squats" or "Man o' War" would get your post banned and deleted. They gave up all their specialist games. Fxxk you, GW. I did purchase your products with my hard earned money. I have not encountered any other companies that have such polices.
3. Their products are either outrage in prices or quality being sub-standard.
4. Armies are never balanced on purpose and I guarantee that they will never be.
5. Rules, in comparison with other gamers, are mediocre at best.
5. It brews a community of power-gamers that are native, short-sighted and have an altitude problem.