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Is it just me, or are Vibrocannon Batteries sneakily good?

90pts buys you 12 T7 wounds and on average 2x s8 ap3, if not 3x s9 ap2, hits, at 48".... that's dirt cheap damage that scares pretty much everything, with durability to weather incoming fire. Then theres the ability to add conceal and plonk it behind an ADL for a 2+ save and the new spammability of Guide/Prescience.

Something like:

3x Warlocks
3x3 Vibrocannons
ADL

is around 450pts, and you'd be taking the Farseer anyway.

I know that Fire Prisms are more maneuverable and flexible and Lance Walkers can outflank and are around the same price-per-shot, but the durability the Batteries have is difficult to fault, right?

So 450pts to kill a max of 9 models before thinking about cover saves and line of sight, if you are facing lots of AV yea thats a little better but still you can only pop 3 tanks a turn (which is pretty darn good!). Against infantry though (which is 6th ed mainly)I think there are better options in the eldar heavy support section. I hardly face any vehicles so to me this set up isnt that good.

I hadn't even thought about that to be honest,

Highly survivable and also, no rolls to hit if I remember correctly?

I have looked at them, I just can't see myself taking them over another option in the HS.

MarkyMark wrote:
So 450pts to kill a max of 9 models before thinking about cover saves and line of sight

Honestly I was thinking more in terms of MC and Tank killing, now that Wave Serpents have all the mid-strength torrenting power you could ask for.

I have looked at them, I just can't see myself taking them over another option in the HS.

Isn't that the true of it... I think they're pretty awesome, but so are Wraithlords, Fire Prisms, Dark Reapers and War Walkers. Still out of them I'd say they do have the most durability per points, even if they are the slowest (ie; stopped )

 Farseer_Kaiser wrote:
Is it just me, or are Vibrocannon Batteries sneakily good?

90pts buys you 12 T7 wounds and on average 2x s8 ap3, if not 3x s9 ap2, hits, at 48".... that's dirt cheap damage that scares pretty much everything, with durability to weather incoming fire. Then theres the ability to add conceal and plonk it behind an ADL for a 2+ save and the new spammability of Guide/Prescience.

Something like:

3x Warlocks
3x3 Vibrocannons
ADL

is around 450pts, and you'd be taking the Farseer anyway.

I know that Fire Prisms are more maneuverable and flexible and Lance Walkers can outflank and are around the same price-per-shot, but the durability the Batteries have is difficult to fault, right?

I like Vaul's batteries, but I think your logic is flawed.

You're spending 155 points to give 2+ cover saves to 270 points of heavy support when the units only cost 7.5 points per t7 wound.

At 7.5 points per t7 wound I would want an opponent shooting at them instead of troop units like jetbikes or wraithguard. A 2+ cover save only encourages an opponent to shoot a less durable and more expensive per wound unit.

5+ area terrain is plenty of cover for t7 units that cost 7.5 points per wound.

Spend the 155 points elsewhere and welcome opponents shooting at Vaul's support batteries. Shooting to death 90 points of them is more difficult than killing 504 points of scyth armed wraith guard.

An excellent argument well made.

I'll add that taking an ADL makes a lot of sense anyway, with the Quadgun still being reliable AA, so the improvement of the cover from 4+ to 2+ will never be worth the extra 105pts of Warlocks.

Also if you take Eldrad, you can just leave him nearby (or on the quadgun), then pop his warlord trait when you need to to make it a 3+ anyway.

ghpoobah wrote:
I hadn't even thought about that to be honest,

Highly survivable and also, no rolls to hit if I remember correctly?

It's a heavy 1 weapon now. So you do need to roll to hit. Then the S increases with every hit.

The shadow weaver is a pretty good choice too. Large blast that will be hitting vehicles with S7. Plus it's rending against infantry.

Shadow Weaver is small blast isn't it?

Drager wrote:
Shadow Weaver is small blast isn't it?

Large blast.

bogalubov wrote:

Drager wrote:
Shadow Weaver is small blast isn't it?

Large blast.

Small blast. Check out the faq.

I've been curious about this, but in the entry for the platforms, it says two guardians and a platform. Do you deploy all of the guardians? or do you take one guardian out and play with six mdels assuming that one is on the gun. Is the unit a 9 model unit or 6?

Waaaaghmaster wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

Drager wrote:
Shadow Weaver is small blast isn't it?

Large blast.

Small blast. Check out the faq.

Good catch. Didn't realize that the new faq came out today.

Well never mind about the shadow weaver. Back into the closet it goes, why would you want to have long range anti-infantry weapon anyway.

bogalubov wrote:

Waaaaghmaster wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

Drager wrote:
Shadow Weaver is small blast isn't it?

Large blast.

Small blast. Check out the faq.

Good catch. Didn't realize that the new faq came out today.

Well never mind about the shadow weaver. Back into the closet it goes, why would you want to have long range anti-infantry weapon anyway.

It came out before the codex did

I've run 2 units of 3 Shadow Weavers in my games with the new dex, and have really liked them. Barrage weapon sniping is incredibly useful. Strength 6 with psuedo-rending is very solid, despite being only a small blast. For 90 points, I'd say they are well worth it.

In a case to help support the Vibro it is also artillery. In other words you don't need LOS. So you have 3 possible hits and one dead tank and all behind a huge hill.

In a case to help support the Vibro it is also artillery. In other words you don't need LOS. So you have 3 possible hits and one dead tank and all behind a huge hill.

I think you need to check it again. Vibro cannons are not barrage weapons, nor does "artillery" status automatically allow weapons to ignore LOS. Unless there is something that I completely overlooked, Vibro Cannons are a 48" St 7 AP 4 shot that has pinning and bonus St and AP for additional hits. Nothing more.

If you want to run Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries, I'd stick with the Shadow Weavers for cheap. They compare favorably with Thunderfire Cannons. The D-Cannon upgrade is nice, but expensive and faces range restrictions.

 JGrand wrote:

In a case to help support the Vibro it is also artillery. In other words you don't need LOS. So you have 3 possible hits and one dead tank and all behind a huge hill.

I think you need to check it again. Vibro cannons are not barrage weapons, nor does "artillery" status automatically allow weapons to ignore LOS. Unless there is something that I completely overlooked, Vibro Cannons are a 48" St 7 AP 4 shot that has pinning and bonus St and AP for additional hits. Nothing more.

If you want to run Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries, I'd stick with the Shadow Weavers for cheap. They compare favorably with Thunderfire Cannons. The D-Cannon upgrade is nice, but expensive and faces range restrictions.

I get confused between artillery and barrage. Ik barrage ignores cover, but I could have sworn that artillery don't need LOS in order to fire...

 Farseer_Kaiser wrote:
An excellent argument well made.

I'll add that taking an ADL makes a lot of sense anyway, with the Quadgun still being reliable AA, so the improvement of the cover from 4+ to 2+ will never be worth the extra 105pts of Warlocks.

Also if you take Eldrad, you can just leave him nearby (or on the quadgun), then pop his warlord trait when you need to to make it a 3+ anyway.

Given the need for anti air in the Eldar codex an aegis is a solid purchase.

Guardians do well behind an aegis as an objective holder, and can g2g if worse comes to worse.

Eldrad or any other farseer can only guide 1 battery and prescience a 2nd battery. My recommendation would be to deploy 2 batteries close enough to eldrad to bless behind the aegis and a 3rd "sacraficial" battery far away from them in 5+ area terrain. The 5+ cover gives the illusion of weakness, and the aggressive instincts of a player will encourage them to pounce on the batter when it should be ignored as far as shooting goes. I've played a lot with IG sabres which cost 52 points for the same 4 wounds, and can vouch for the fact that a unit of 2 is incredibly durable when it comes to being shot. 3 Vaul's costs as much as 2 lascannon sabers. Their durability is so stupid good it really is best if an opponent shoots at them instead of anything else in your army. Also remember if worse comes to worse the guardians can g2g for a 3+ cover when in 5+ area terrain.

There is another change in tactics with experienced players. I would not expect the better players in a tournament to ever shoot at a Vaul's support battery with anything other than ranged poison or sniper weapons. They are as durable as a wet paper towel in cc, so the best way to deal with them is to either cc them or ignore them in favor of shooting something else.

GTKA666 wrote:


I get confused between artillery and barrage. Ik barrage ignores cover, but I could have sworn that artillery don't need LOS in order to fire...

Nope, Artillery confers no such benefit, although Artillery units often have barrage weapons.

In addition, I believe all three varieties of platform have their place. In my lists, I often find Fast Attack slots fill up even faster than Heavy Support, leaving me with one HS slot left to soak up the last few available points. A Vauls Wrath squad is a viable way to use those points, and can cover a wide variety of roles depending on the gaps in my list. In a fast list, I like to take D-cannons for area denial (It is much easier to outmaneuver the enemy when there is a 24" circle they don't want to be in!). If I stacked my FA slots with Spiders I may be a little short on AT that can pen front armor, so I can take Vibrocannons for cheap punch. If I took mostly specialists (Fire Dragons, Scythe Guard, and such) a unit of Shadow Weavers is generalist enough to fill in the middle ground for me. They each have a viable role, depending on list.

I get confused between artillery and barrage. Ik barrage ignores cover, but I could have sworn that artillery don't need LOS in order to fire...

Sadly, not the case. The Vibro Cannon just isn't that great.

In the weaver v vibro cannon debate my answer is take both.

Weavers are downright vicious against infantry. Between their abilities to snipe specific models, force pinning checks, psueudo rend, drop large numbers of wounds, and tear up av10/11 side armor with s7 barrage hits weavers are fantastic. Characters with only a 4+ should be worried. They do an excellent job against imperial 13/11/10 or 12/10/10 armor which is the bulk of imperial tanks. The enemy failing pinning checks can never be relied upon, but they will often randomly fail one at a time that is very inconvenient for them and a downright windfall for you. It's a fantastic icing on the cake that is weavers.

Vibros...well it comes down to math hammer.

With guide or prescience they land a triple hit about 70% of the time. When 3 hits land they inflict the dakka of a full Vendetta volley for 90 points instead of 130. When they hit 2 out of 3 times they inflict the dakka as 90 points of long fangs for 90 points. Worst case scenario is they have the same dakka as long fangs for the same # of points, and they are a lot more durable than long fangs when they are shot at.

Without guide or prescience they will only land 3 hits about 30% of the time. Most of the time they will land 2 blows and only hit like they are long fangs, and about 2 times per game they will hit like a vendetta instead. Even without guide/prescience I fail to see how that's a bad deal for 90 points.

Which is better 2 vibro and a weaver or 2 weaver and a vibro? That's like debating between between a nice steak or gourmet ice cream.

Vaul's are one of if not the best option for Heavy Support in the codex this time around. It would seem that the previous crappiness of Artillery rules and probably lack of model ownership prejudices the argument somewhat.

All of them make good Guide/Prescience targets.

Weavers can do some serious first turn damage on vehicles that don't want to be caught with the Barrage rules vs Side armour and flipping templates, racking up Str 7 hits. Rending hits on models behind Aegis lines are value too, no saves vs those thanks to the Barrage rule.
Vibrocannons + Guide already been discussed. 3 Str 9 AP2 hits beats one Str9 AP2 Lance (Fireprism at +35 points sans upgrades) or two Str8 AP2 Lance hits (Wraithlord at +70 points) vs most things. They're the end of the argument towards taking a Wraithknight based only on the knight's Firepower and resiliency too.
I've had some good success with D-cannons, even walking them first turn to close off more of the board. They make a nice bunker for psykers, and I take a Warlock for the extra T7 wound and the chance of rolling a nice offensive power if not Reveal/Conceal.
Guardians do a nice job of babysitting them too.

 JGrand wrote:

I get confused between artillery and barrage. Ik barrage ignores cover, but I could have sworn that artillery don't need LOS in order to fire...

Sadly, not the case. The Vibro Cannon just isn't that great.

Its actually not that bad, its just hard to quantitively measure the value of something that is going to fire every turn which is one of its best features. T7 3+ save sitting in cover requires some serious firepower to shift, and 2-3 S8-9 hits every turn is pretty reasonable for 90pts. Compare that to Guard Heavy weapon squads, which are borderline competitive (mostly let down by the T3, so can be insta gibbed) and you get BS4 and far superior durability for similar points. When the rest of the codex has anti infantry firepower coming out its ears I really don't see much value in the Shadow Weavers, small blasts aren't that impressive and they only get up to S7. The Nightspinner is far superior to Shadow Weavers as a long range anti infantry unit, whereas a Prism isn't a clear cut winner over 3 Vibros at all for anti tank purposes (3 S9 is far better than 1 S9).

But in any case I am finding that the Support weapons actually have quite a bit of milage, they are very cheap and effective so you can throw them into basically any list to ensure you fill all your heavy slots (which imo Eldar should whenever possible). They are also excellent bunkers for Farseers, one of the biggest reasons I don't think Mech Eldar are going to make a major comeback is because Farseers need LOS for all their powers now so can't hide in transports all game. Having a bunch of T7 wounds around you is probably the safest place Eldar can put a Seer short of a massive blob of Wraithguard.

Its actually not that bad, its just hard to quantitively measure the value of something that is going to fire every turn which is one of its best features. T7 3+ save sitting in cover requires some serious firepower to shift, and 2-3 S8-9 hits every turn is pretty reasonable for 90pts. Compare that to Guard Heavy weapon squads, which are borderline competitive (mostly let down by the T3, so can be insta gibbed) and you get BS4 and far superior durability for similar points. When the rest of the codex has anti infantry firepower coming out its ears I really don't see much value in the Shadow Weavers, small blasts aren't that impressive and they only get up to S7. The Nightspinner is far superior to Shadow Weavers as a long range anti infantry unit, whereas a Prism isn't a clear cut winner over 3 Vibros at all for anti tank purposes (3 S9 is far better than 1 S9).

I'm just not a fan of static weaponry--a factor that you seem to be discounting a bit. 48" that doesn't need line of sight is generally firing all game long. Shadow Weavers are nice, but are less survivable, more points, and have less ability to hide than 3 Vaul's Weavers. As for the Fire Prism vs, Vibro debate, I don't particularly care for either. The Prism pays the price to be a low output generalist in an army of specialists. The Vibros have the aforementioned issue of being static--a major problem in areas that subscribe to Nova style terrain with large LOS blockers.

But in any case I am finding that the Support weapons actually have quite a bit of milage, they are very cheap and effective so you can throw them into basically any list to ensure you fill all your heavy slots (which imo Eldar should whenever possible). They are also excellent bunkers for Farseers, one of the biggest reasons I don't think Mech Eldar are going to make a major comeback is because Farseers need LOS for all their powers now so can't hide in transports all game. Having a bunch of T7 wounds around you is probably the safest place Eldar can put a Seer short of a massive blob of Wraithguard.

I think Mech Eldar will be pretty formidable, as most people have shifted to counter infantry spam. Facing 8+ Av 12 hulls that can put out large numbers of ignore cover fire is tough. However, I do agree with the love of support weapons. I've had 2x3 Vaul's Weavers in my lists, and have gotten great results thus far.

 JGrand wrote:

Its actually not that bad, its just hard to quantitively measure the value of something that is going to fire every turn which is one of its best features. T7 3+ save sitting in cover requires some serious firepower to shift, and 2-3 S8-9 hits every turn is pretty reasonable for 90pts. Compare that to Guard Heavy weapon squads, which are borderline competitive (mostly let down by the T3, so can be insta gibbed) and you get BS4 and far superior durability for similar points. When the rest of the codex has anti infantry firepower coming out its ears I really don't see much value in the Shadow Weavers, small blasts aren't that impressive and they only get up to S7. The Nightspinner is far superior to Shadow Weavers as a long range anti infantry unit, whereas a Prism isn't a clear cut winner over 3 Vibros at all for anti tank purposes (3 S9 is far better than 1 S9).

I'm just not a fan of static weaponry--a factor that you seem to be discounting a bit. 48" that doesn't need line of sight is generally firing all game long. Shadow Weavers are nice, but are less survivable, more points, and have less ability to hide than 3 Vaul's Weavers. As for the Fire Prism vs, Vibro debate, I don't particularly care for either. The Prism pays the price to be a low output generalist in an army of specialists. The Vibros have the aforementioned issue of being static--a major problem in areas that subscribe to Nova style terrain with large LOS blockers.

The static nature of vibros and heavy terrain of some tournaments can give opponents blind spots to hide in. Hiding from 270 points of vibro cannons is a good idea, hiding from 90 points can be questionable. Personally I favor 2 weavers and 1 vibro if going all out on batteries, but that's because I'm thinking of major GT terrain set ups. There is almost always 1 really good fire lane to set up in. Throwing a single unit of vibros can threaten the fire lane. An opponent's instinctual response will be to remove the threat, and at 90 points batteries are cheap enough to be used as bait and/or a fire magnet.