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If you are running a keeper and want anti air, try princes with wings, ml2 on biomancy, a +3 roll on iron arm with give you a str9 lash with skyfire and 2d6 shots with rending.

 minigun762 wrote:
For what it's worth, I agree that LoC offer much more AA utility.

If we assume that both a KoS and LoC are grabbing two greater rewards and an extra ML, we still have a 60 point difference between them. That's a fair amount of points to spend elsewhere but if we use the price of wings based on daemon prince, we see it matches up very closely with the +1 ML on the LoC.
In the end, either way we get what we pay for.

Well, what does that 60 points buy you?

At least one additional turn of shooting (as the LoC can move 24 inches and fire, as opposed to the Keeper walking + run in lieu of shooting). Assume GEQ in cover, that's 8 dead (3 warp charge) or 6 dead (2 warp charge), if they're not in cover (reasonable assumption, as a FMC can often shoot over cover) that's 12 or 9 dead. If those were Firewarriors, you've already paid the difference (not that point paid to point killed is an accurate assessment). Plus a 50/50 shot at D3 more dead in all calculations. It's also 3 or 2 dead marines (and them likely with FNP)

That 60 points also likely buys you at least one vector strike....or 2 dead marines on average.

It also buys you roughly triple the durability against most shooting. (16% chance of hitting at BS1 versus 66% at BS4 or 50% at BS3)

It also buys you the ability to engage air targets (and I demonstrated earlier in the thread, completely demolish Vendettas, Drakes, Crimson Hunters, anything with AV10). Again, for those who keep dropping red herrings (You can use other units to shoot at air! Who cares if the Keeper can't!), this is not why I'm advocating the LoC over the Seeker, it's one of a multitude of things you get from an LoC over a Keeper.

I have run the Keeper is just a ML 3 psyker and that is it and with 2 greater rewards plus ML3. In both configurations I liked him - but he was much more powerful with the 2x Greater.

Naturally, you want to roll him on Telepathy to try for Invis but Terrify, Puppet Master, and Hallucinate are all awesome. In some cases Dominate is okay but is generally terribad.

I also never swap for the Primaris until I get at least Invis.

If they are competing for slots, the LoC has more raw power but I think the Keeper provides a bit more utility (I know the LoC can get divination buffs but with him flying it is tough to stay within 12")

MarkyMark wrote:
If you are running a keeper and want anti air, try princes with wings, ml2 on biomancy, a +3 roll on iron arm with give you a str9 lash with skyfire and 2d6 shots with rending.

Unless there's a new FaQ I don't know about, the attacks aren't rending.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
If you are running a keeper and want anti air, try princes with wings, ml2 on biomancy, a +3 roll on iron arm with give you a str9 lash with skyfire and 2d6 shots with rending.

Unless there's a new FaQ I don't know about, the attacks aren't rending.

May of got confused but to be honest you dont need rending on str9

If you can roll up hellfire lance or the S8 lesser gift the Lord of Change can shoot down storm ravens too. Matter of luck mostly.

 minigun762 wrote:
If we assume that both a KoS and LoC are grabbing two greater rewards and an extra ML, we still have a 60 point difference between them. That's a fair amount of points to spend elsewhere but if we use the price of wings based on daemon prince, we see it matches up very closely with the +1 ML on the LoC.
In the end, either way we get what we pay for.

I suggest looking instead at the percentage cost difference between the two units. The LoC is ~35% more expensive than the LoC stock. Once you buff them up, the cost difference as a percentage becomes less.

Is the LoC worth it? Well, that depends on you. Personally I think that it is.