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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/16 17:20:53
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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The Dark Side is always easier.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/16 17:41:32
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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She could have given moral reasons instead of religious reasons. She chose to go with religion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/16 19:22:59
Subject: Re:Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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USCIS is wrong. The Adjudicator is wrong for even asking.
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/16 20:31:55
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Hallowed Canoness
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I have a religious objection to peace and to the frightening limitations on capital punishment in our justice system. These stupid laws about drinking need to go too.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/16 21:26:24
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Me too. Unfortunately that is not covered in the constitution and relevant supreme court decisions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/16 21:27:07
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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d-usa wrote:She could have given moral reasons instead of religious reasons. She chose to go with religion.
Many people conflate morality with religion, and even more people conflate religion with "organized religion".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/16 21:38:35
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote:She could have given moral reasons instead of religious reasons. She chose to go with religion.
Many people conflate morality with religion, and even more people conflate religion with "organized religion".
But yet, here we have a self proclaimed Atheist who decided to put down in writing that she has "religious objections".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/16 23:53:55
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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d-usa wrote: azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote:She could have given moral reasons instead of religious reasons. She chose to go with religion.
Many people conflate morality with religion, and even more people conflate religion with "organized religion".
But yet, here we have a self proclaimed Atheist who decided to put down in writing that she has "religious objections".
So then I assume you do not recognize Shinto or any other belief system lacking gods as a religion?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 00:04:12
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote: azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote:She could have given moral reasons instead of religious reasons. She chose to go with religion.
Many people conflate morality with religion, and even more people conflate religion with "organized religion".
But yet, here we have a self proclaimed Atheist who decided to put down in writing that she has "religious objections".
So then I assume you do not recognize Shinto or any other belief system lacking gods as a religion?
Do people who follow Shinto consider themselves Atheists, or do Atheists follow spiritual belief systems?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 01:36:03
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Hallowed Canoness
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azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote: azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote:She could have given moral reasons instead of religious reasons. She chose to go with religion.
Many people conflate morality with religion, and even more people conflate religion with "organized religion".
But yet, here we have a self proclaimed Atheist who decided to put down in writing that she has "religious objections".
So then I assume you do not recognize Shinto or any other belief system lacking gods as a religion?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_deities#Shinto
Please apologize post haste to Inari Okami and the rest of the Shinto pantheon for talking out of your donkey cave. Hell the word "Shinto" means "Way of the Gods".
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 04:18:24
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Ahtman wrote:Ok, the title is a bit misleading, but you gotta put asses in the seats.
I'm sure some will see it as malicious, but I think it is more of a byproduct of a previous time. Much like the laws that were developed before the internet existed and the ensuing shenanigans that have cropped up.
Yeah. What's interesting, to me at least, is that the times are moving faster. Social change that once took multiple generations now seems possible in less than a decade, both in terms of technology, institutions and social standards. But we still pass laws with about the same speed, and let old laws sit on the books as long as they used to. I think it's likely we're going to experience a lot more outmoded laws in the near future. Automatically Appended Next Post: Seaward wrote:Why doesn't she change her answer? Say she didn't understand the question or something. Voila. Problem solved. A 64 year-old female will not be getting a draft notice.
Some people have principles. Automatically Appended Next Post: d-usa wrote:As much as I believe that people can object to fighting in a war for a country that they were born in, I can see the point of the question.
Why do you want to become a citizen of a country you are not even willing to fight for (advanced age aside). They are under no obligation to give her citizenship, and she is under no obligation to take up arms for the country she wants to live in.
A person can love a country without being willing to fight and kill for it. It's the whole Ghandi thing, you know, the idea that a person can engage in a real fight for a cause, but having a higher belief in a cause.
I deeply and sincerely believe that it is not moral or ethical to take another person’s life, and my lifelong spiritual/religious beliefs impose on me a duty of conscience not to contribute to warfare by taking up arms
Seems like you can't claim a religious objection to warfare, and then get mad when they ask for evidence of a religion that opposes war.
I think it's much weirder to insist a person claiming deeply held spiritual views can only truly hold those views when they attend a church.
Especially when she could have just lied and said she would be willing to fight - she's a 64 year old woman nothing is ever going to happen to test that claim. The proof that it is a genuinely held belief is obvious by the fact that she's not willing to do the easy thing and just lie on the form. Automatically Appended Next Post: Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, but then again she put herself in the situation. She could have either kept quiet, knowing she would never EVER get called up, or given another reason.
Don't feth up your paperwork and then get annoyed that it causes issues.
No, seriously, there are people on this Earth with principles. Who won't just write in the little boxes whatever they think is the most convenient answer.
It's really just... fething weird that people would see someone acting on their principles and then conclude that they must be the problem.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/17 04:21:36
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 04:25:41
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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And she could have moral reasons and claimed moral reasons.
Instead an atheist made the conscious choice to put a sworn statement in writing that she doesn't fight because of her religion. So did she lie? Do atheists have a lot of deeply held religious beliefs?
Don't say "my religion tells me so" and then get pissed when you are asked to produce a letter from a religious authority to back you up. Especially when you don't have to claim a religious objection and could have just claimed a moral one.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/17 04:26:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 04:26:22
Subject: Re:Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Grey Templar wrote:I believe the government requires it to be a registered religion, or something that can be proven to be sincere.
Something to do with people making up religions to get tax exempt status. "I'm going to start up a new religion worshipping Mat Ward. Worship involves playing games of Warhammer. I can also claim all my warhammer related purchases as tax write-offs."
There's a difference between claiming an organisation as a religious group for tax benefit, and a government only considering a religious belief valid if a person attends a church.
What that issue comes back to is exactly what Ahtman mentioned in his OP, the idea of government laws being badly out of date. Because there was a time, within a generation or two, that most everyone who held spiritual beliefs was a member of a church. These days much spiritualism has become far less formal. Whether that's good or bad is besides the point, the simple fact is that membership of a church is no longer a good way of establishing if a religious belief is valid.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 04:36:19
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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KalashnikovMarine wrote: azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote: azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote:She could have given moral reasons instead of religious reasons. She chose to go with religion.
Many people conflate morality with religion, and even more people conflate religion with "organized religion".
But yet, here we have a self proclaimed Atheist who decided to put down in writing that she has "religious objections".
So then I assume you do not recognize Shinto or any other belief system lacking gods as a religion?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_deities#Shinto
Please apologize post haste to Inari Okami and the rest of the Shinto pantheon for talking out of your donkey cave. Hell the word "Shinto" means "Way of the Gods".
I think you should really, really figure out what "kami" translates as, because it does not mean "god". Anything which inspires awe spiritually (even Mt. Fuji or the emperor are considered as kami) is a better translation. It doesn't work when you look at it through a Judeo-Christian lens (this translation problem actually created an amusing anecdote about Hirohito's speech at the end of WWII).
Anyway, my point is that it's possible to have a religion without gods. I understand that Shinto's creation mythology does use deities, though, so maybe that's not the greatest example I could have used.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 07:42:02
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Hallowed Canoness
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I think you should really, really figure out what you're talking about because you're flat out wrong. Kami has three regular translations in English to my knowledge "spirits", "essence" and "deities". All are quite accurate for how Shinto uses them, and applies differently to the circumstance in which you're using the word. Amaterasu, Inari, Hachiman and other various deities are actively worshiped (Inari has some 32,000 full time shrines across Japan, the few I got to see were gorgeous) and are certainly gods as the word "god" or "gods" is used in the West. So yes kami are a WIDE variety of meaning, but the term also refers and is applied to the various gods and deities of the Shinto religion. It's also worth noting till the end of WW2 the Emperor WAS/is a "god" by virtue of blood lineage to Amaterasu-ōmikami, that changed under Emperor Showa (Hirohito) when he was asked/forced (depending on who you ask) by Douglas MacArthur to issue the Ningen-sengen. (Humanity Declaration) Not that that really did what MacArthur thought it did, depending on who's translating or critiquing the translation, your mileage may vary. I'd also appreciate you not forcing or assuming a Judeo-Christian lens on others, I'm neither a Jew, a Christian or member any other religion of the Abrahamic tradition and the sects therein. Edit: For a religion that is more in tune for what you're trying to describe, Non-Buddhist strains of religious Tao/Daoism would likely be your easiest go to.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/06/17 07:54:11
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 15:41:58
Subject: Re:Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I fail to see what a religion having/not having actual gods has anything to do with the situation on the table here.
This person said she had religious objections to war and the government is calling her on it.
She could(should) have said she had a moral objection to war and been just fine.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 18:51:54
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:I think you should really, really figure out what you're talking about because you're flat out wrong. Kami has three regular translations in English to my knowledge "spirits", "essence" and "deities". All are quite accurate for how Shinto uses them, and applies differently to the circumstance in which you're using the word. Amaterasu, Inari, Hachiman and other various deities are actively worshiped (Inari has some 32,000 full time shrines across Japan, the few I got to see were gorgeous) and are certainly gods as the word "god" or "gods" is used in the West. So yes kami are a WIDE variety of meaning, but the term also refers and is applied to the various gods and deities of the Shinto religion.
It's also worth noting till the end of WW2 the Emperor WAS/is a "god" by virtue of blood lineage to Amaterasu-ōmikami, that changed under Emperor Showa (Hirohito) when he was asked/forced (depending on who you ask) by Douglas MacArthur to issue the Ningen-sengen. (Humanity Declaration) Not that that really did what MacArthur thought it did, depending on who's translating or critiquing the translation, your mileage may vary.
I'd also appreciate you not forcing or assuming a Judeo-Christian lens on others, I'm neither a Jew, a Christian or member any other religion of the Abrahamic tradition and the sects therein.
Edit: For a religion that is more in tune for what you're trying to describe, Non-Buddhist strains of religious Tao/Daoism would likely be your easiest go to.
Yeah, Daoism is what I was thinking I should've used for my example afterwards, too. Oh well.
I'm glad you're familiar with MacArthur's odd request; because that's kinda what my point was: Hirohito was forced to proclaim that he wasn't a god, and everybody in Japan just shurgged and said "well, duh" and assumed the Americans were insane for thinking it needed to be said, akin to forcing someone to declare that they aren't a witch, unicorn or living piece of toast. Why? Because "kami" does not translate to "god" in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word, which is the type of god that D-USA was implying must be present in a religion, to which my statement about Shinto was a direct response.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 19:07:18
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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azazel the cat wrote:KalashnikovMarine wrote:I think you should really, really figure out what you're talking about because you're flat out wrong. Kami has three regular translations in English to my knowledge "spirits", "essence" and "deities". All are quite accurate for how Shinto uses them, and applies differently to the circumstance in which you're using the word. Amaterasu, Inari, Hachiman and other various deities are actively worshiped (Inari has some 32,000 full time shrines across Japan, the few I got to see were gorgeous) and are certainly gods as the word "god" or "gods" is used in the West. So yes kami are a WIDE variety of meaning, but the term also refers and is applied to the various gods and deities of the Shinto religion.
It's also worth noting till the end of WW2 the Emperor WAS/is a "god" by virtue of blood lineage to Amaterasu-ōmikami, that changed under Emperor Showa (Hirohito) when he was asked/forced (depending on who you ask) by Douglas MacArthur to issue the Ningen-sengen. (Humanity Declaration) Not that that really did what MacArthur thought it did, depending on who's translating or critiquing the translation, your mileage may vary.
I'd also appreciate you not forcing or assuming a Judeo-Christian lens on others, I'm neither a Jew, a Christian or member any other religion of the Abrahamic tradition and the sects therein.
Edit: For a religion that is more in tune for what you're trying to describe, Non-Buddhist strains of religious Tao/Daoism would likely be your easiest go to.
Yeah, Daoism is what I was thinking I should've used for my example afterwards, too. Oh well.
I'm glad you're familiar with MacArthur's odd request; because that's kinda what my point was: Hirohito was forced to proclaim that he wasn't a god, and everybody in Japan just shurgged and said "well, duh" and assumed the Americans were insane for thinking it needed to be said, akin to forcing someone to declare that they aren't a witch, unicorn or living piece of toast. Why? Because "kami" does not translate to "god" in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word, which is the type of god that D-USA was implying must be present in a religion, to which my statement about Shinto was a direct response.
I never mentioned a God.
I never mentioned that the woman said "My God said that I cannot kill in a war" and that the government said "then show us where your God said that."
I only said that a known atheists made the declaration that "my religion states I cannot kill in a war", and if you claim a religious exception then the government can ask for proof from a religious authority.
I don't think I brought a God into the argument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 20:08:58
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Hallowed Canoness
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azazel the cat wrote:KalashnikovMarine wrote:I think you should really, really figure out what you're talking about because you're flat out wrong. Kami has three regular translations in English to my knowledge "spirits", "essence" and "deities". All are quite accurate for how Shinto uses them, and applies differently to the circumstance in which you're using the word. Amaterasu, Inari, Hachiman and other various deities are actively worshiped (Inari has some 32,000 full time shrines across Japan, the few I got to see were gorgeous) and are certainly gods as the word "god" or "gods" is used in the West. So yes kami are a WIDE variety of meaning, but the term also refers and is applied to the various gods and deities of the Shinto religion.
It's also worth noting till the end of WW2 the Emperor WAS/is a "god" by virtue of blood lineage to Amaterasu-ōmikami, that changed under Emperor Showa (Hirohito) when he was asked/forced (depending on who you ask) by Douglas MacArthur to issue the Ningen-sengen. (Humanity Declaration) Not that that really did what MacArthur thought it did, depending on who's translating or critiquing the translation, your mileage may vary.
I'd also appreciate you not forcing or assuming a Judeo-Christian lens on others, I'm neither a Jew, a Christian or member any other religion of the Abrahamic tradition and the sects therein.
Edit: For a religion that is more in tune for what you're trying to describe, Non-Buddhist strains of religious Tao/Daoism would likely be your easiest go to.
Yeah, Daoism is what I was thinking I should've used for my example afterwards, too. Oh well.
I'm glad you're familiar with MacArthur's odd request; because that's kinda what my point was: Hirohito was forced to proclaim that he wasn't a god, and everybody in Japan just shurgged and said "well, duh" and assumed the Americans were insane for thinking it needed to be said, akin to forcing someone to declare that they aren't a witch, unicorn or living piece of toast. Why? Because "kami" does not translate to "god" in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word, which is the type of god that D-USA was implying must be present in a religion, to which my statement about Shinto was a direct response.
Kami does in fact translate to god or deity (depending on situation of use), and the religion does have actively worshiped gods as we just briefly established. At this point I'm forced to consider you're being deliberately obtuse. So let's go to the dictionary shall we?
Courtesy of the fine people at Merriam Webster
god
noun \ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\
Definition of GOD
1capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
Definition two fits quite nicely to the Shinto religion's deities. Kami isn't the precise word, but it's meaning casts a wider net then you seem to be allowing for.
The issues with the Humanity Declaration comes down more to semantics in Japanese and a little clever word play by Emperor Showa then anything else. That it was in court Japanese, which was hard even for regular Japanese speakers to understand (many had issues understanding Emperor Showa's "surrender" speech at the end of the war) just added to the confusion. The real meat of the problems with the Ningen-sengen have to do with what the actual point of the speech was, which was, according to the critics*, that Japan was already a democratic nation, they were not having democracy forced on them by occupiers, and to not forget their pride in their nation. Translation errors abound? Yes. Douglas MacArthur was a bit of an odd ball? Yes. You're still wrong? Yes.
*Critics including Emperor Showa
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 20:37:21
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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My wife, who is Japanese, says "kami-sama" means god. Kami is the word god, and sama is the honorific title.
There is another word kami, with a different chinese symbol, that means above.
Shinto has a number of what might be called big name gods, like Hachiman, the god of war, and many minor spirits and deities of mountains, rivers and so on.
It is believed the kami can and must be worshipped and placated in order to bring success in the harvest, exams, avert bad luck like household fires and so on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 21:22:33
Subject: Re:Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Back on topic. I can see where the Abjudicator is going with this. She's (the one denied) a proclaimed atheist but claimed consientous objector or something to that effect on religious grounds. One cannot "lie" on filling out a citizenship application to do so will have a negative impact that's going to last a long painful time . Also a Abjudicator cannot "help" a individual on filling out a citizenship application forms. Its a conflict of interest. A "mistake" was pointed out where she should have gone with "morals" instead of "religious".......
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 02:49:35
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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d-usa wrote:I don't think I brought a God into the argument.
Atheism brings god into the argument. My stance was that religious reasons are not excluded by virtue of atheism, as there are religions that who not recognize gods. But I may have been splitting hairs a bit much.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 11:09:33
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote:I don't think I brought a God into the argument.
Atheism brings god into the argument. My stance was that religious reasons are not excluded by virtue of atheism, as there are religions that who not recognize gods. But I may have been splitting hairs a bit much.
Thats an incrediubly stupid statement. If you're an atheist you, by your very nature, can't use religious reasons. You don't believe in them.
Either way the person making the argument would be lying and shoulld not be allowed into the country.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 11:19:10
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Lady of the Lake
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azazel the cat wrote:d-usa wrote:I don't think I brought a God into the argument.
Atheism brings god into the argument. My stance was that religious reasons are not excluded by virtue of atheism, as there are religions that who not recognize gods. But I may have been splitting hairs a bit much. The thread title brings god into it. Frazzled wrote:Thats an incrediubly stupid statement. If you're an atheist you, by your very nature, can't use religious reasons. You don't believe in them. Either way the person making the argument would be lying and shoulld not be allowed into the country. I suppose you could refer to their teachings or messages they try to push onto people; I mean you can agree with where it gets to, just not how it got there. But then why even mention religion when it's purely morals. It's like vegans and how their stereotype sees them setting up situations in which they can pronounce it to every one. Those people are obviously not in whatever it is for anything but the attention. And hell, to further point out the stupidity (which I hope someone has already done so before) pacifism has nothing to do with religion and really shouldn't be tied as such. Sure the two can be side by side, but you can surely have one without the other and just saying you're a pacifist should not require you to prove you belong to some church that feels that way. It is akin to saying "I like the colour red" "oh so which firehouse do you currently work in?". These people...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/18 11:23:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 12:02:18
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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n0t_u wrote:
And hell, to further point out the stupidity (which I hope someone has already done so before) pacifism has nothing to do with religion and really shouldn't be tied as such. Sure the two can be side by side, but you can surely have one without the other and just saying you're a pacifist should not require you to prove you belong to some church that feels that way. It is akin to saying "I like the colour red" "oh so which firehouse do you currently work in?". These people...
Yes, but as people have pointed out what she is doing is saying "I like red because I drive a fire engine" "Are you a fire fighter?" "What? How dare you! I never said I was a fire fighter"
Or to use the Vegan example she is saying she is vegetarian because she is Hindu then complaining when someone asks her what temple she attends when all she needed to say was "I'm vegetarian for moral reasons"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/18 12:04:18
insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 12:37:40
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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Hallowed Canoness
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So to clarify the situation in the OP for myself. Old lady X is getting U.S. Citizenship, she is at least non-religious, if not an atheist and a pacifist. She indicates she believes in giving peace a chance and possibly drum circles on her immigration paper work, but instead of saying she's a pacifist just cause, she (accidentally? intentionally? do we know?) marks that it's cause her invisible sky friend wants everyone to be cool. Immigration then says "Great! Which sky friend exactly?"
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/19 02:28:30
Subject: Woman Denied US Citizenship Unless She Joins Church
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Frazzled wrote:Thats an incrediubly stupid statement. If you're an atheist you, by your very nature, can't use religious reasons. You don't believe in them. No, atheist means you don't believe in any Gods. It doesn't mean you can't still have convictions based on religious values, or cultural values. Ever heard of a non-practicing Christian? You think those people just stop celebrating Easter and Christmas? Ever heard of a non-beliving Jew - they don't stop being Jewish you know. Either way the person making the argument would be lying and shoulld not be allowed into the country. First of all, she's already in the country as a permanent resident. Read the article. Second of all, it's very fething obvious she isn't lying... because if she'd be happy to lie she just would have told the simple, easy lie "yes I am willing to fight for my new country". She's a 64 year old woman for feth's sake, when the North Koreans invade she isn't getting drafted. I mean, it's a pretty fething simple piece of deduction - when there's a simple, easier lie able to be told, then the weird, problematic statement being given almost certainly isn't a lie.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/19 02:29:55
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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