Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

(Hypothetical for clarification) But even if Combat Familiar is treated as a modifier to create Additional attacks, would that also mean that abilities like Rage and charging into melee that modify the Attack profile would also not benefit from Smash?

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Apparently. The one person that's arguing its not a weapon (bet instead a group of set modifiers for some reason) I have on ignore because he insulted me too many times so I'm only getting half of the argument.

I've proven that it is a weapon, however, so his argument is moot.

I disagree. it is not a weapon. it is a piece of wagear that provides the bearer with additional attacks that (per the wording for Smash) are resolved at AP2.

It's a piece of wargear that provides additional attacks with a weapon profile. This weapon profile (like all CC attacks) can be resolved at AP2 per Smash.
Sorry I wasn't clear in my wording.

Fling - your lies and insults are accepted as your concession. Welcome to ignore

ANother odd rule claim by one side is that when it says "all attacks" it doesn't mean that, due to a claim of "context" saying otherwise. This also has no basis.

Flings argument similarly falls apart, as it relies on this made up notion that a profile is a set modifier when they want it to be, and not at other times. This is, of course, nonsense.

Fling a MC with no listed weapons has a ccw, the ccw hits with AP "-". That has a given value, which you call a set modifier. Why does it get to use smash with it's profile and a CF doesn't?

Warone, all modifiers would be taken into account as per the modifiers rules in the front of the brb.

 liturgies of blood wrote:


Warone, all modifiers would be taken into account as per the modifiers rules in the front of the brb.

Assuming nothing is mutually exclusive, the rules on page 2 would have Smash set all characteristics of close combat attacks to AP 2 and CF sets those 2 specific Melee Attacks to Str 4 as fixed values are the absolute last modifier to be considered.

That only assumes that this long hand profile "CF" is a set modifier. A profile is not itself a set modifier. To claim so ignores the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That only assumes that this long hand profile "CF" is a set modifier. A profile is not itself a set modifier. To claim so ignores the rules.

So a weapon with a fixed strength stat is not a modifier but just the fixed value of the weapon profile?

So is it basically the disconnect because CF is not a weapon with a melee type? It is still attacks that only resolve during close combat so wouldn't Smash still affect it?

Yes smash effects the CF attacks. No one is claiming it does not. However CF also effects the CF. Both set the value of the AP so you have a conflict. Page 7 resolves this conflict as neither rule specifies how it interacts with the other.

As for is CF a weapon. Simply check the Chaos codex note that it is clearly defined as war gear and not a weapon. Note how all the weapons in the codex are clearly defined as such.

 WarOne wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:


Warone, all modifiers would be taken into account as per the modifiers rules in the front of the brb.

Assuming nothing is mutually exclusive, the rules on page 2 would have Smash set all characteristics of close combat attacks to AP 2 and CF sets those 2 specific Melee Attacks to Str 4 as fixed values are the absolute last modifier to be considered.

Yes, that seems to be the case.

 FlingitNow wrote:

So is it basically the disconnect because CF is not a weapon with a melee type? It is still attacks that only resolve during close combat so wouldn't Smash still affect it?

Yes smash effects the CF attacks. No one is claiming it does not. However CF also effects the CF. Both set the value of the AP so you have a conflict. Page 7 resolves this conflict as neither rule specifies how it interacts with the other.

Does that also extend to the Black Mace as well? The Mace is a weapon with a specific profile in it and is codex specific. Would that also contradict Smash as the rules stated in Codex:CSM say it is AP4?

(Hypothetical for clarification) But even if Combat Familiar is treated as a modifier to create Additional attacks, would that also mean that abilities like Rage and charging into melee that modify the Attack profile would also not benefit from Smash

Do those modifiers set the value of the AP?

Assuming nothing is mutually exclusive, the rules on page 2 would have Smash set all characteristics of close combat attacks to AP 2 and CF sets those 2 specific Melee Attacks to Str 4 as fixed values are the absolute last modifier to be considered

Yes set values are the last modifier. So the attacks are AP- as that is the set modifier from CF.

Flings argument similarly falls apart, as it relies on this made up notion that a profile is a set modifier when they want it to be, and not at other times. This is, of course, nonsense

This is a lie. The CF is clearly a set modifier as I've laid out. You've said repeated that CF is not a weapon profile now your argument hinges on it being that...

I agree that if CF was a weapon profile then the attacks would be AP2. Of course if you check C:CSM you'll notice all the weapons have a full profile and CF does not.

Fling a MC with no listed weapons has a ccw, the ccw hits with AP "-". That has a given value, which you call a set modifier. Why does it get to use smash with it's profile and a CF doesn't?

This again really? No weapon profiles are profiles that are modified by modifiers. Even if the weapon was itself a set value modifier we have the smash rule specifying the only weapon that can over rule it being an AP1 weapon, so the more specific rule wins.

 WarOne wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That only assumes that this long hand profile "CF" is a set modifier. A profile is not itself a set modifier. To claim so ignores the rules.

So a weapon with a fixed strength stat is not a modifier but just the fixed value of the weapon profile?

Correc t - as you (usually) attack with a weapon. Hence why it is S (user) for a normal melee weapon - it doesnt have an intrinsic strength otherwise.

The profile of a combat familiar cannot be itself a modifier. That is nonsense, and is the heart of Flings "argument". Given how easily this has been disproven, it is a wonder Fling clings to it so.

The profile of a combat familiar cannot be itself a modifier. That is nonsense, and is the heart of Flings "argument". Given how easily this has been disproven, it is a wonder Fling clings to it so.

So easy to disprove yet you've neglected to do so. I posted the rules for modifiers which proves that CF is a series of modifiers. You've stated that CF is not a weapons profile so please disprove it is a series of modifiers using actual rules.

Going back a bit just for clarification.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Chaos familiar rules over ride this and state the attacks are S4. Just like a relic blade makes a SM attacks S6 (regardless of modifiers or his own strength). You no longer attack at your own strength in cc but at ygr strength of your weapon.

The relic blade has no weapon profile but is placed under Weapons in the Space Marine codex. Other equipment (name of section as well) such as a servo-arm and servo-harness also follow the same descriptive process for a relic blade.

Further, none of these weapons or equipment are described as weapons in the BRB (such as a table on page 138 that lists profiles of weapons up until that point in publication). Does that mean these items are also not going to work such as in the case of Smash with combat familiar?

Again, just checking for clarification.

Relic blade does indeed have a weapon profile. Check the SM FaQ.

Servo arm causes all sorts of problems RaW. That is a massive other discussion that will add no clarity here.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Relic blade does indeed have a weapon profile. Check the SM FaQ.

Hmm...It does indeed. You are correct.

But until it had such clarification in the FAQ, how would the relic blade of been treated? It shares a very similar description to other things that do not have a weapon profile.

Well you would have had to super impose the unusual power weapon profile but with the S replaced with 6. So you get back to the same thing. This is because 5th edition did not have weapon profiles for CCWs where as 6th does. It is a subtle but important shift in the mechanics of how assault works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So essentially a MC with a relic blade would have counted as having an unusual power with a set modifier of S6 applied. Meaning you'd still be AP2 but if you chose to smash and half your attacks your strength would be doubled and then set back to 6...

 FlingitNow wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So essentially a MC with a relic blade would have counted as having an unusual power with a set modifier of S6 applied. Meaning you'd still be AP2 but if you chose to smash and half your attacks your strength would be doubled and then set back to 6...

Smash has a problem with fixed strength close combat items....

 WarOne wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Relic blade does indeed have a weapon profile. Check the SM FaQ.

Hmm...It does indeed. You are correct.

But until it had such clarification in the FAQ, how would the relic blade of been treated? It shares a very similar description to other things that do not have a weapon profile.

Which doesnt alter that it is *not* a set modifier

You do not attack with yuor strength in combat. You (usually) attack with a weapon, and that weapon determines how you attack

So a smashing MC with a relic blade isnt having their Strength "set" to 6 by the relic blade; their Strength was never being used by the attack in the first place. Their strength remains 10, they attack at 6 because they are attacking with a profile that specifies 6.

This is a subtle difference in how 6th edition works that seems to be "confusing" some.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 WarOne wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Relic blade does indeed have a weapon profile. Check the SM FaQ.

Hmm...It does indeed. You are correct.

But until it had such clarification in the FAQ, how would the relic blade of been treated? It shares a very similar description to other things that do not have a weapon profile.

Which doesnt alter that it is *not* a set modifier

You do not attack with yuor strength in combat. You (usually) attack with a weapon, and that weapon determines how you attack

So a smashing MC with a relic blade isnt having their Strength "set" to 6 by the relic blade; their Strength was never being used by the attack in the first place. Their strength remains 10, they attack at 6 because they are attacking with a profile that specifies 6.

This is a subtle difference in how 6th edition works that seems to be "confusing" some.

Agreed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This is a subtle difference in how 6th edition works that seems to be "confusing" some.

I'm not sure how you are using those quotation marks. Are those scare quotes? In terms of confusion, I can understand some level of confusion as you have to reference several different sources of information in book format thanks to differences between the current edition and past codex publications.

Sort of - you just have to read the section that says if you attack with a weapon you use that profile. That doesnt make the profile a set modifier.

CF is not a set modifier - it is a long hand weapon profile, that you attack with in addition to your normal attacks. As such it cannot be a modifier - it IS the thing, it is not an alteration to the thing.

As such Smash MUST affect it, same as it affects any other Attack made by the daemon prince.

CF is not a set modifier - it is a long hand weapon profile, that you attack with in addition to your normal attacks. As such it cannot be a modifier - it IS the thing, it is not an alteration to the thing.

Citation. You yourself have said it is not a weapon profile.

If it is not a weapon profile it is a set modifier.

If it is a weapon profile you have to choose between it and your other weapon whenever you attack BRB page 51.

 FlingitNow wrote:
If it is not a weapon profile it is a set modifier.

You have a rules quote and page number for this I assume?
Because this is very incorrect.
It is a value, not a modifier.

Page 2 I broke down a couple of pages ago (page 11 or 12 of the thread I think).

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
If it is not a weapon profile it is a set modifier.

You have a rules quote and page number for this I assume?
Because this is very incorrect.
It is a value, not a modifier.

I've tried for this, and have just gotten "i've proven it is a modifier" ad nauseum. Its why I have ignored Fling - the insults and lies made it pointless continuing.

According to Fling the S6 from a relic blade isnt a profile value, but a set modifier. Who would have thought! Certainly not the rules writers, for one, but that fact eludes some.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm not stating it is a new type of modifier I am using the modifier rules page 2:

"Certain pieces of war gear or special rules can modify a models characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it"

Does CF add to the attacks characteristic? If yes then it is a modifier. If no citation required as CF disagrees with you.

"... or even setting its value"

Does CF set the value of the S & AP of those attacks? If yes then it is a modifier. If no citation required as CF disagrees with you.

Here we are page 12 this was on.

CF is wargear that gives additional attacks that are made with a specific weapon. We know this because it specifies the Melee Type which, according to page 50:

Melee Type
Weapons witht he Melee type can only be used in close combat.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm not stating it is a new type of modifier I am using the modifier rules page 2:

"Certain pieces of war gear or special rules can modify a models characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it"

Does CF add to the attacks characteristic? If yes then it is a modifier. If no citation required as CF disagrees with you.

"... or even setting its value"

Does CF set the value of the S & AP of those attacks? If yes then it is a modifier. If no citation required as CF disagrees with you.

Here we are page 12 this was on.

So every single weapon and attack in the game is a set modifier?
You'll quickly find the game breaks down completely if you try that.

According to Fling the S6 from a relic blade isnt a profile value, but a set modifier

Another Nos lie. I have not said this. I said it was S6 on the profile. I was then asked what about if the FAQ hadn't happenedhow to handle it. The rules state it is a power weapon with extra rules (S6) so we use the unusual power weapon profile with the additional rule of S6. I assume this would resolve as a set modifier as the unusual power weapon profile gives a strength to use. Though you could have substituted in the S6 to the profile.