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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 03:20:21
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne
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"If the target's majority initiative is 3 or lower, or... If two or more Initiative characteristics are tied for majority... Additionally if a 6 is rolled to wound with this weapon, the target us wounded automatically and the wound is resolved at AP1" p63 if you want to read it fully.
Additionally = In addition to... or As well as
If you need money ask grandma for a loan. Additionally, rob a bank.
If target has i>3 then x. As well as, 6's on wounds are ap1.
Am i robbing the bank because i need money or because the Joker has other plans? Stupid stupid use of additionally imo
Cheers guys
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 03:35:35
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Courageous Silver Helm
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I have thought about this one quite a bit since I got my codex.
I think that the intent is that it should only get the AP 1 against I3 targets, but was written in a sloppy fashion.
I believe this on account that the "Additionally" implies that all of the preceding statement must also be true.
So, A gains ability B in cases C.
Additionally, A gains ability D in case of C.
Well, that's how I'm reading it. FAQ on the issue would help...
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40k: - Cadian 231st, Death Guard, Sisters, Dark Eldar Iyanden, Scythes of the Emperor
WHFB Armies: High Elves, Empire, WoC, Beastmen, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Vampires
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 07:07:29
Subject: Re:Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I think the 2 are separate.
You gain a bonus against initiative 3 or less(and vehicles)
And you also have an effect if you roll a 6 to wound. Of course AP1 vs AP2 is irrelevant against non-vehicles as AP1 now only has an additional effect against vehicles. This opens the possibility of a FAQ for the weapon to be AP1 on a roll of 6 to pen as well.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 07:12:53
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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There are a few, not many but a few, cases where the difference between AP 1 and AP 2 matter even for non-vehicles. Aun'va being the most obvious to come to mind right now, who is immune to all AP 1 weapons. More special rules of their likes may come in the future, leading to more situations where you will want to be plan for either AP 1 or AP 2 weapons to be used against non-vehicles for other effects.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/18 07:16:12
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 07:16:25
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
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Turalon wrote:I believe this on account that the "Additionally" implies that all of the preceding statement must also be true.
So, A gains ability B in cases C.
Additionally, A gains ability D in case of C.
Additionally is used more to say 'in addition to this benefit, you also gain this benefit'.
So it basically states:
A gains ability B in cases C.
Additionally, A gains ability D in cases E.
If I were to switch the two sentences around:
If a 6 is rolled To Wound with this weapon, the target is wounded automatically and the Wound is resolved at AP1. Additionally, if the target's majority Initiative is 3 or lower, or the target has no Initiative characteristic, then Hits from a weapon with this special rule are resolved at +1 Strength.
Would you now suddenly think that the '+1S when I <=3' line only applies when you roll a 6 To Wound?
Just check the other uses of the word 'additionally' in the rules, and you'll see how silly you'll get when you start trying to mash two rule conditions together just because of the word additionally. For example, the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' USR, do you play it that these models are only immune to Fear when they're caught in a Sweeping Advance?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 07:30:40
Subject: Re:Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Horrific Howling Banshee
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I think that the two are seperate.
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- ~4000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 09:21:43
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Redemption wrote:
Additionally is used more to say 'in addition to this benefit, you also gain this benefit'.
So it basically states:
A gains ability B in cases C.
Additionally, A gains ability D in cases E.
If I were to switch the two sentences around:
If a 6 is rolled To Wound with this weapon, the target is wounded automatically and the Wound is resolved at AP1. Additionally, if the target's majority Initiative is 3 or lower, or the target has no Initiative characteristic, then Hits from a weapon with this special rule are resolved at +1 Strength.
Would you now suddenly think that the '+1S when I <=3' line only applies when you roll a 6 To Wound?
Just check the other uses of the word 'additionally' in the rules, and you'll see how silly you'll get when you start trying to mash two rule conditions together just because of the word additionally. For example, the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' USR, do you play it that these models are only immune to Fear when they're caught in a Sweeping Advance?
QFT
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 14:29:23
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Dakka Veteran
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Prepositional calculus says, "what"?
They're separate things. Additionally is the key word, you need to interpret it the other way though. The queen's English is a beeeotch eh?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 14:33:00
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Monofilament clearly says that wound rolls of 6 are AP1, and against targets with Initiative of less than 3 (or no Initiative stat) they get +1 strength.
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Chaos Space Marines - Iron Warriors & Night Lords 7900pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 16:22:35
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Courageous Silver Helm
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rohansoldier wrote:Monofilament clearly says that wound rolls of 6 are AP1, and against targets with Initiative of less than 3 (or no Initiative stat) they get +1 strength.
I totally disagree with the clarity of this because there is no word "and" between the two rules.
Back to Additionally,
The word means that there is a new premise which builds off of the preceding one. Not, that they are two independent sub rules.
Whatever the intent the writer had, it is not clear.
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40k: - Cadian 231st, Death Guard, Sisters, Dark Eldar Iyanden, Scythes of the Emperor
WHFB Armies: High Elves, Empire, WoC, Beastmen, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Vampires
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 16:33:31
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Turalon wrote: rohansoldier wrote:Monofilament clearly says that wound rolls of 6 are AP1, and against targets with Initiative of less than 3 (or no Initiative stat) they get +1 strength.
I totally disagree with the clarity of this because there is no word "and" between the two rules.
Back to Additionally,
The word means that there is a new premise which builds off of the preceding one. Not, that they are two independent sub rules.
Whatever the intent the writer had, it is not clear.
They used "additionally" as a "O' btw there is more abilities this type has." Seeing as to how our shurkiens have "rending" and monofillament is just a shuriken, but laid out in very thin long wire. There is also thousands of these little wires and I could see that even a few wires getting underneath the armor (you rolled a six!) would slice up the opponent to the point of no return. Or the wire just slices off the enemies pathetic armor in the first place, but I am going with the former.
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Color Scheme
Luggnath Army
Field testing>>>Paper testing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 16:41:24
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Dakka Veteran
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Really not clear? It's +1 str vs init 3. Additionally rolls of a 6 to wound auto wound and are treated as ap one.
That's it. It's not ap 1 vs initial 3 unless you roll a6 to wound.its also ap 1 and wounds vs tough 10 init 10 if you roll a 6.
The str rule +1 is all applied to vehicles and int 3 solders.
Good lord
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In a dog eat dog be a cat. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 16:47:06
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
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Well not all vehicles, against Walkers with I4 or better you don't get the Strength bonus of course.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 16:48:02
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Lungpickle wrote:Really not clear? It's +1 str vs init 3. Additionally rolls of a 6 to wound auto wound and are treated as ap one.
That's it. It's not ap 1 vs initial 3 unless you roll a6 to wound.its also ap 1 and wounds vs tough 10 init 10 if you roll a 6.
The str rule +1 is all applied to vehicles and int 3 solders.
Good lord
Exactly. They are 2 separate effects.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 18:41:40
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Objuration Mechanicum is a malediction that targets a single
enemy unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, the target
unit must re-roll To Hit and To Wound rolls of 6. In addition,
if the target is a vehicle (or vehicle squadron), each vehicle
in the unit has a Strength 1 hit with the Haywire special rule
allocated to it (roll separately for each).
According to your definition of "additionally" (which means the same thing as "in addition") vehicles with this malediction on them take a haywire hit every time they re-roll a 6 to hit or to wound.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 19:25:15
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Bojazz wrote:Objuration Mechanicum is a malediction that targets a single
enemy unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, the target
unit must re-roll To Hit and To Wound rolls of 6. In addition,
if the target is a vehicle (or vehicle squadron), each vehicle
in the unit has a Strength 1 hit with the Haywire special rule
allocated to it (roll separately for each).
According to your definition of "additionally" (which means the same thing as "in addition") vehicles with this malediction on them take a haywire hit every time they re-roll a 6 to hit or to wound.
That is not how that is worded at all.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 19:31:12
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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DeathReaper wrote:Bojazz wrote:Objuration Mechanicum is a malediction that targets a single
enemy unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, the target
unit must re-roll To Hit and To Wound rolls of 6. In addition,
if the target is a vehicle (or vehicle squadron), each vehicle
in the unit has a Strength 1 hit with the Haywire special rule
allocated to it (roll separately for each).
According to your definition of "additionally" (which means the same thing as "in addition") vehicles with this malediction on them take a haywire hit every time they re-roll a 6 to hit or to wound.
That is not how that is worded at all.
Ummm...yes it is.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 19:38:54
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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He asserted that "vehicles with this malediction on them take a haywire hit every time they re-roll a 6 to hit or to wound."
Which is not true at all. That is what I was referring to.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 19:44:01
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Wiltshire
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DeathReaper wrote:He asserted that "vehicles with this malediction on them take a haywire hit every time they re-roll a 6 to hit or to wound."
Which is not true at all. That is what I was referring to.
No he didn't. He said it would be true if you followed [insert name of guy he was talking about]'s logic.
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Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 19:44:29
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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DeathReaper wrote:He asserted that "vehicles with this malediction on them take a haywire hit every time they re-roll a 6 to hit or to wound."
Which is not true at all. That is what I was referring to.
Sorry thought you were referring to the text on Objuration Mechanicum. He was saying that using the definition of "Additionally" (or "In Addition") that his opponent in the thread uses, the Haywire hit is tied in to the re-rolling.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 19:51:04
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Right I read that as 'according to the definition of additionally'
not "According to your definition of "additionally" " which is clearly what he said.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 20:30:15
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Yeah I think we can chalk this up to asked an answered now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 21:07:28
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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This is very difficult. If you're going from a gramatical standpoint, the additionally is a separate clause, so it is not related to the first sentence. Also, it has a condition in the sentence, the condition being "When you roll a 6 to wound". Which is the case irrespective of initiative.
However, codex writers are not literary geniuses. Additionally, I really really hope I'm wrong, as I hate the amount of instant wounds I'm taking!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 21:57:34
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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chrisj725 wrote:This is very difficult. If you're going from a gramatical standpoint, the additionally is a separate clause, so it is not related to the first sentence. Also, it has a condition in the sentence, the condition being "When you roll a 6 to wound". Which is the case irrespective of initiative. However, codex writers are not literary geniuses. Additionally, I really really hope I'm wrong, as I hate the amount of instant wounds I'm taking! They are 2 separate effects. 1) If the ini is less than or equal to 3, the weapon gets +1S 2) If the weapon rolls a 6 to wound, the wound is resolved at AP1 They are not related. The codex writers knew what they were doing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/18 21:58:09
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 23:05:06
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne
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Turalon wrote: rohansoldier wrote:Monofilament clearly says that wound rolls of 6 are AP1, and against targets with Initiative of less than 3 (or no Initiative stat) they get +1 strength.
I totally disagree with the clarity of this because there is no word "and" between the two rules.
Back to Additionally,
The word means that there is a new premise which builds off of the preceding one. Not, that they are two independent sub rules.
Whatever the intent the writer had, it is not clear.
I think this sums the problem up: its about how it builds (additionally) on the previous statement- does it relate to the initiative aspects of the rule or just the monofilament title? By not starting the sentence in a new paragraph it links the text but isnt SPECIFICALLY clear how.
Im inclined to play always wounding with ap1 on 6s but im gonna have to go through this before i use warp spiders with every opponent from now until faq.
Thanks for all your replies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/18 23:57:18
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Ithani wrote: Turalon wrote: rohansoldier wrote:Monofilament clearly says that wound rolls of 6 are AP1, and against targets with Initiative of less than 3 (or no Initiative stat) they get +1 strength.
I totally disagree with the clarity of this because there is no word "and" between the two rules.
Back to Additionally,
The word means that there is a new premise which builds off of the preceding one. Not, that they are two independent sub rules.
Whatever the intent the writer had, it is not clear.
I think this sums the problem up: its about how it builds (additionally) on the previous statement- does it relate to the initiative aspects of the rule or just the monofilament title? By not starting the sentence in a new paragraph it links the text but isnt SPECIFICALLY clear how.
Im inclined to play always wounding with ap1 on 6s but im gonna have to go through this before i use warp spiders with every opponent from now until faq.
Thanks for all your replies.
Ooooor you could realize that the Initiative requirement for the +1S and the AP1 on a 6 are separate things? There are dozens of rules in both the codices and the rulebook that use the terms "additionally" and "in addition." The conditions don't stack, they're separate sentences. Additionally, this thread has been answered.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/19 00:24:40
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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I think its two separate things. But I have to wonder why in the world they made it AP1 instead of AP2?
The AP1 doesn't have any impact against vehicles since it only kicks in on To Wound rolls and not Armour Penetration rolls. AP1 only has effect against vehicles, so what's the point?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/19 00:26:09
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan
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ClassicCarraway wrote:I think its two separate things. But I have to wonder why in the world they made it AP1 instead of AP2?
The AP1 doesn't have any impact against vehicles since it only kicks in on To Wound rolls and not Armour Penetration rolls. AP1 only has effect against vehicles, so what's the point?
Space Pope's Paradox of Duality. And any future things they do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/19 00:26:21
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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ClassicCarraway wrote:I think its two separate things. But I have to wonder why in the world they made it AP1 instead of AP2?
The AP1 doesn't have any impact against vehicles since it only kicks in on To Wound rolls and not Armour Penetration rolls. AP1 only has effect against vehicles, so what's the point?
Because some characters are immune to AP1 weapons.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/19 00:27:22
Subject: Eldar Monofilament Do i get the Ap1 on i>3 targets?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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DeathReaper wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:I think its two separate things. But I have to wonder why in the world they made it AP1 instead of AP2? The AP1 doesn't have any impact against vehicles since it only kicks in on To Wound rolls and not Armour Penetration rolls. AP1 only has effect against vehicles, so what's the point?
Because some characters are immune to AP1 weapons. And to keep it consistent with the spinneret rifle, which is AP1. If the special effect made it Ap2, it would downgrade that weapon.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/19 00:27:50
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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