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Yesterday, I had my speed Freaks against Tyranid. A Mysetic Spore dropped a Doom of Manti(sp) and my bike mobs had to take a 3d6 Ld or take 4 wounds. Mob rule states that they would be all fearless, but this is a straight Ld roll. so I had to make 2 rolls. I thought that since I had mob rules my Ld would be a 10. Fortunantly, I rolled a 7 and a 16, so it didn't matter either way. But against something like the Doom or any other psychic attacks - is it only the boss' Ld or does Mob Rule allow for the Ld to be 10 if there is 10+ in the unit?

May choose to substitute their normal leadership for the number of boys in the mob.

Page 31 Ork codex.

Leadership Tests. Page 7 main rule book (small version).

The Mob rule would be used.
I believe the wording is "may always use".

I am a little confused why you made two rolls, and why the 16 was a pass?

 Sleg wrote:
Yesterday, I had my speed Freaks against Tyranid. A Mysetic Spore dropped a Doom of Manti(sp) and my bike mobs had to take a 3d6 Ld or take 4 wounds. Mob rule states that they would be all fearless, but this is a straight Ld roll. so I had to make 2 rolls. I thought that since I had mob rules my Ld would be a 10. Fortunantly, I rolled a 7 and a 16, so it didn't matter either way. But against something like the Doom or any other psychic attacks - is it only the boss' Ld or does Mob Rule allow for the Ld to be 10 if there is 10+ in the unit?

for the doom you take a wound for each point above your leadership you failed by. it's not a set number.

I'm not sure why you rolled twice, but if you used the boss pole, then it was wrong. the boss pole is only used for morale tests, not leadership tests.

But yes you use the mob rule to substitute your normal leadership with the number of boys.

Aye, against Warbikers you basically:
- Check what your highest Leadership in the unit is, and you may substitute the number of Orks in the squad for your Leadership. So if you have more than 7, use that.
- Roll a Leadership test on 3d6.
- If you failed, you suffer a wound for every point you failed by. So if you have a warbiker mob of 8 warbikers, and you rolled an 11, you'd suffer 3 wounds.
- Roll for your 4+ cover save due to Exhaust Cloud. Because for some reason, GW thought that some dust particles would prevent your soul from being sucked out by a psychic xenos monstrosity. *sigh*

mob rule all the way.

Orks don't have souls the're plants so using your logic they should be immune to doom's ability. wakka wakka.

You would need to prove to me that plants do not have souls... but then again, I still would like proof that animals have souls while your at it.

 grendel083 wrote:
The Mob rule would be used.
I believe the wording is "may always use".

I am a little confused why you made two rolls, and why the 16 was a pass?

Two units were effected - each had 12 - 1 passed and 1 failed and had to make 4 saves or take a wound. What I was trying to say was it didn't matter if it were on Ld or number in the mob.

Ah! Makes sense now, thanks!

Oh I forgot. the one thing we didn't do was have Doom roll psychic ability, nor did either unit take a deny the witch.

The Life Drain thing is a special rule, not a psychic power (unless he took Psychic Shriek).

May seem like a silly question but going off of mob rule can your leadership go above 10? Brb caps it at 10, but mob rule says use the number in the squad. If the squad numbers 20 does that give them ld 20 for this test? Does that make it a brb vs codex ruling?

Both rules work together, it's the number in the squad, capping at 10.

Thanks. I don't have the codex and haven't looked to closely at the rule.

tgf wrote:
mob rule all the way.

Orks don't have souls the're plants so using your logic they should be immune to doom's ability. wakka wakka.

Orks are fungi, which is a different classification from plants. Fungi have souls, as evidenced by the denizens of the Mushroom Kingdom.

Fluff is nice, but how do we know if any of the armies actually have souls?

If Life Drain is not a Psychic attack and a mere special rule, then it would do nothing against any Ork Mob of 18 or more. If it is a Psychic Attack then it would max out the Ld at 10.

No, the LD is capped regardless of why you're taking the test.

Hmmm, not what Mob Rules actually says. "Ork mobs may always substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership Value."
Doesn't say it caps at 10
In the FAQ it says only for a Weird Boy
"Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to more than 10 by the Mob Rule? (p31)
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a maximum of 10."

This is only for using Psychic Abilities, nothing about saving from it. In 5th Ed against things such as Doom, Fearless would mean that you automatically passed all Ld checks. Which means that if there were 11 in the Mob - no roll.

6th change the rule to only routing, but the 4th edition codex doesn't have the cap, because the cap wasn't necessary. So do we change the RAW? Or do we just say they pass all Ld checks with 11 figures or more in the unit because it's RAI?

 Sleg wrote:
Hmmm, not what Mob Rules actually says. "Ork mobs may always substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership Value."
Doesn't say it caps at 10
In the FAQ it says only for a Weird Boy
"Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to more than 10 by the Mob Rule? (p31)
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a maximum of 10."

This is only for using Psychic Abilities, nothing about saving from it. In 5th Ed against things such as Doom, Fearless would mean that you automatically passed all Ld checks. Which means that if there were 11 in the Mob - no roll.

6th change the rule to only routing, but the 4th edition codex doesn't have the cap, because the cap wasn't necessary. So do we change the RAW? Or do we just say they pass all Ld checks with 11 figures or more in the unit because it's RAI?

pg 2, modifiers.
only wounds and attacks can be raised above 10.

 Sleg wrote:
Fearless would mean that you automatically passed all Ld checks

You should probably reread Fearless because that's not what it does. hint - Not all Leadership tests are Morale tests.

6th change the rule to only routing, but the 4th edition codex doesn't have the cap, because the cap wasn't necessary. So do we change the RAW? Or do we just say they pass all Ld checks with 11 figures or more in the unit because it's RAI?

There's a cap on Leadership - check page 2.

 Sleg wrote:
Hmmm, not what Mob Rules actually says. "Ork mobs may always substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership Value."
Doesn't say it caps at 10
In the FAQ it says only for a Weird Boy
"Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to more than 10 by the Mob Rule? (p31)
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a maximum of 10."

This is only for using Psychic Abilities, nothing about saving from it. In 5th Ed against things such as Doom, Fearless would mean that you automatically passed all Ld checks. Which means that if there were 11 in the Mob - no roll.

6th change the rule to only routing, but the 4th edition codex doesn't have the cap, because the cap wasn't necessary. So do we change the RAW? Or do we just say they pass all Ld checks with 11 figures or more in the unit because it's RAI?

Sleg, is Mob Rule a Modifier? If so, it does not need to state it caps at 10 because page 2 of the BRB already covers it.

 Sleg wrote:
Hmmm, not what Mob Rules actually says. "Ork mobs may always substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership Value."
Doesn't say it caps at 10
In the FAQ it says only for a Weird Boy
"Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to more than 10 by the Mob Rule? (p31)
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a maximum of 10."

This is only for using Psychic Abilities, nothing about saving from it. In 5th Ed against things such as Doom, Fearless would mean that you automatically passed all Ld checks. Which means that if there were 11 in the Mob - no roll.

6th change the rule to only routing, but the 4th edition codex doesn't have the cap, because the cap wasn't necessary. So do we change the RAW? Or do we just say they pass all Ld checks with 11 figures or more in the unit because it's RAI?

Reread Modifiers on Pg 2 BRB

The Codex doesn't have a cap, but the core rules for stats do.
The mob rule doesn't state it can break this core rule.

 grendel083 wrote:
The Codex doesn't have a cap, but the core rules for stats do. The mob rule doesn't state it can break this core rule.

You are correct, the reason why it doesn't say it breaks the core rule is because it is a rule written for 4th Ed and Codex RAW trumps BRB rules, unless there is a correction made in FAQ. The only correction made in the FAQ is that a weirdboy can gain Ld 10 for Psychic Test. Mob Rule is not increasing the Leaders of the units Ld to 10. It is the Unit as a whole taking the Ld instead. For 4th Edition Fearless meant they passed all Ld test Automatically. This has changed, so an Ork Army should be able to go Higher than a 10, unless otherwise stated in the FAQ.

Codex only trumps the BRB in the event of a conflict.
There's no reason why both rules can't work with each other, nothing to suggest a conflict, so both rules must be obayed.

 Sleg wrote:
You are correct, the reason why it doesn't say it breaks the core rule is because it is a rule written for 4th Ed and Codex RAW trumps BRB rules, unless there is a correction made in FAQ. The only correction made in the FAQ is that a weirdboy can gain Ld 10 for Psychic Test. Mob Rule is not increasing the Leaders of the units Ld to 10. It is the Unit as a whole taking the Ld instead. For 4th Edition Fearless meant they passed all Ld test Automatically. This has changed, so an Ork Army should be able to go Higher than a 10, unless otherwise stated in the FAQ.

Re-read the FAQ. The question doesn't state anything about "for the purposes of a psychic test", it simply asks if a Weirdboy's Ld can be increased above 10. The answer is no. Since the rulebook also states stats can't be raised above 10, and since we are given no reason to consider Weirdboys unique in this regard, we can safely assume that this extrapolates to all other Orks as well.

 Sleg wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The Codex doesn't have a cap, but the core rules for stats do. The mob rule doesn't state it can break this core rule.

You are correct, the reason why it doesn't say it breaks the core rule is because it is a rule written for 4th Ed and Codex RAW trumps BRB rules, unless there is a correction made in FAQ.

In the case of a conflict. There is no conflict here. If Mob Rule said "This may take the units Leadership above 10." that'd be a conflict.

The only correction made in the FAQ is that a weirdboy can gain Ld 10 for Psychic Test.

That's not actually what the FAQ says, but its irrelevant anyway.

Mob Rule is not increasing the Leaders of the units Ld to 10. It is the Unit as a whole taking the Ld instead.

Irrelevant.

For 4th Edition Fearless meant they passed all Ld test Automatically. This has changed, so an Ork Army should be able to go Higher than a 10, unless otherwise stated in the FAQ.

You can make an argument for Intent all you want, but there's no way to make a rules argument for it.
Oh - and rules change. Or should I argue that Genestealers should be able to assault from outflank/infiltrate?

SO no conflict with p31 of the Ork Codex
Mob Rule!
Ork psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of Boyz around them at any given time. An Ork with a truckload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadersip value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule.

This says nothing about capping at 10, in fact it clearly states that the number in the unit equals Ld value. So if there are 30 in the unit then they have to roll under 30 with 2d6.
This you say is not in conflict with Ld limited to 10. I disagree, it's in total conflict and the rule goes to the codex, unless the FAQ says differently.

As for the Weirdboy and Psychic test you are correct, but if the test is for a single figure, they wouldn't be able to use mob rules, the FAQ states that they can get a max of 10 though. But this is for an individual. So I was wrong, according to the ork codex any roll that effects the entire unit (not just the leader) they will be able to use mob rules and have an Ld equal to the number in the unit.

Never mind, I concede on everything - you are all right, there is no thinking outside of the box and all the rules are very clear and easy to follow. Sorry to waste your time. I wont present anymore foolish ideas.

 Sleg wrote:
This says nothing about capping at 10, in fact it clearly states that the number in the unit equals Ld value. So if there are 30 in the unit then they have to roll under 30 with 2d6.
This you say is not in conflict with Ld limited to 10. I disagree, it's in total conflict and the rule goes to the codex, unless the FAQ says differently.

There's no conflict - Mob Rule doesn't mention any cap or restriction. The base rules do. Therefore the base rules apply.

 Sleg wrote:
Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadersip value.

This says nothing about capping at 10, in fact it clearly states that the number in the unit equals Ld value.

It's still a modifier to Ld, and is thus subject to the limitations of modifiers in the BRB.

"Certain special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively . . . or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristic that can be raised above 10."

You're thinking that because Mob Rule is a "Set Value" modifier (set the Ld equal to the number of Orks) and not a + or - modifier that it isn't really a "modifier" but the BRB anticipates this type of situation and accounts for it.

So no, unfortunately no Ork mobs with Ld 30.