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rigeld2 wrote:

In the case of a conflict. There is no conflict here. If Mob Rule said "This may take the units Leadership above 10." that'd be a conflict.

You can make an argument for Intent all you want, but there's no way to make a rules argument for it.
Oh - and rules change. Or should I argue that Genestealers should be able to assault from outflank/infiltrate?

Irrelevant.


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Murrdox wrote:
It's still a modifier to Ld, and is thus subject to the limitations of modifiers in the BRB.

"Certain special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively . . . or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristic that can be raised above 10."

You're thinking that because Mob Rule is a "Set Value" modifier (set the Ld equal to the number of Orks) and not a + or - modifier that it isn't really a "modifier" but the BRB anticipates this type of situation and accounts for it.

So no, unfortunately no Ork mobs with Ld 30.

It's a Substitution not a Modification the Leader's Ld doesn't matter if the unit is using Mob Rules.

 Sleg wrote:


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Here's a Question. If what Doom does is a special attack, then Zogwort's curse will be a special attack, because it say instead of using the psychic chart. Right? It doesn't say it's a Psychic Power. So no Check, No "Deny the Witch". It would be just a die roll and if Zogwort rolls higher, the IC is a squig.

Unfortunately no. Old Zogwort's power is specifically called out as a Psychic Power, and thus must be rolled for like other Psychic Powers. The Doom of Malan'Tai's "Spirit Leech" ability is specifically called out as a "Special Rule" and is thus not subject to any of the rules or restrictions on Psychic Powers. No Psychic hoods, no Deny the Witch, no Psychic test.

As much as I wish it were different


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 Sleg wrote:

It's a Substitution not a Modification the Leader's Ld doesn't matter if the unit is using Mob Rules.

ANYTHING that changes the base characteristic of a model from what is listed in that model's profile counts as a modification, and is thus subject to the limitations thereof. It doesn't matter if you add to the characteristic, divide it, multiply it, set it to 1, set it to 10, set it to the number of models that model has killed over the course of the game, or the number of Boyz in the squad. It's a modifier. It's spelled out right there on page 2.

 Sleg wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

In the case of a conflict. There is no conflict here. If Mob Rule said "This may take the units Leadership above 10." that'd be a conflict.

You can make an argument for Intent all you want, but there's no way to make a rules argument for it.
Oh - and rules change. Or should I argue that Genestealers should be able to assault from outflank/infiltrate?

Irrelevant.

What - the fact that rules change is irrelevant?
Would you like to make a rules based argument? Characteristics and modifiers (which includes Mob Rule as it's a Set Modifier... there's no rule for a "substitute" modifier) are capped at 10 and the Ork codex has nothing to conflict with that.

Yes you are right, I don't know what I was thinking, these Ork are corruptible and can not take a punch. - why would I even consider that there would be a smige of an advantage when playing the Ork. they took away their randomness, why not put a ripple in Mob Rules - the one thing that makes them different from other armies.

So they nerfed melee and Orks can't shoot. I don't even cast Waaagh! because really why bother. And now even though they had trouble casting before, it's down right impossible to make it worthwhile

 Sleg wrote:
Yes you are right, I don't know what I was thinking, these Ork are corruptible and can not take a punch. - why would I even consider that there would be a smige of an advantage when playing the Ork. they took away their randomness, why not put a ripple in Mob Rules - the one thing that makes them different from other armies.

So they nerfed melee and Orks can't shoot. I don't even cast Waaagh! because really why bother. And now even though they had trouble casting before, it's down right impossible to make it worthwhile

What?

The Orks still are not a bad army.

I can not wait to see what they get in their new Codex.

Orks are just weak Space Marines, and Do not have 1 advantage over any other Army. Now that they need Mob Rules to be equal to just about every other HQ - they basically have nothing. I recently did a SAG Dread Army and without even attacking I managed to wipe out half my army, while my opponent immobilized my Deff Dreads and basically ran away for turn 5 and 6, because they had already won on points.

Yea, weak Space Marines that can have units 30 strong with assault 3 weapons...

 Sleg wrote:
Orks are just weak Space Marines, and Do not have 1 advantage over any other Army. Now that they need Mob Rules to be equal to just about every other HQ - they basically have nothing. I recently did a SAG Dread Army and without even attacking I managed to wipe out half my army, while my opponent immobilized my Deff Dreads and basically ran away for turn 5 and 6, because they had already won on points.

I run horde, the only armies I struggle with and lose to, are nids (cause they have just as many models & MC's) and now tau. Other than that they're still quite competitive as a pure ork army.

My rule of thumb goes: If I outnumber you 4:1 I win.

We have the KFF, it amazes and irritates innumerate numbers of players

Plus orks always win

Oh an OT, Yes we cap at 10, but we also have boss poles to reroll morale checks, something few other races get to do.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yea, weak Space Marines that can have units 30 strong with assault 3 weapons...

That would be awesome if you can have 30 Ork Boyz with Big Shootas, Sadly you need 30 ork Boyz to only get 3 Big Shootas - with an average of a single hit per, because of BS2. Yep it's awesome! put them against a 5 man squad of terminators with Bolter Shots, and Plama Guns. doesn't favor the Orks.


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Ahh the Bosspole, cause a wound to reroll Morale checks. You don't reroll any other Ld check. The only time you will use the bosspole is when your unit goes below 11. If your Squad of Orks is reduced that far that you have to use the bosspole your unit isn't effective enough to do much more in the game. They took away Mob up, were you used to be able to consolidate your Ork units, so once your opponent resuces each of your units far enough, they can just move onto better targets.

Yes numbers are very cool, but not viable because Orks are expensive compared to the real horde armies - IG, Nids, Demons, and even Dark Eldar. With Orks the only way to win with take 4 times as many figures as your opponent is with timed games and you can run out the clock, before your opponents reserves enter, camp the reachable objectives and force them to dig you out.


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I think it's funny when I try to talk about a slight advantage for the Orks, I'm Barraged by Matter fact, Closed Minded, Rules Dictators who have beaten me down so much that I really don't care and in unork fashion I give up you win - what ever army you play it's the best and Orks are the worst.

Now I have people trying to beat me up with - it's not so bad. they do well. It's ok when your 10 Bikker Nob Squad takes 6 wounds, from Doom popping out of a Mysetic Spore. and now I have lost 2 (50 pt) bikers and have to fight this now Str 8 Wound 8 monster, instead of heading out and doing something useful. It's ok, because Orks only get tabled a third of the time. Or when I use my Orks they kill everything and I bring lots of numbers because it doesn't matter that I have trouble moving my force and they are bottle-necked - Numbers always win. No they really don't. I had over 100 figures and 2 Drop Pods came in my deployment zone and devastated my horde before I even had my turn. That's what happens.
I have a lot of people in my gaming group and we are always testing out something, but if someone plays me with a competitive force, it's not if I'm going to lose, but how badly. So yes it is that bad, The current codex from 4th Ed, demolished the abilities of the Orks (really just taking all their fun tools away). 5th Ed Crippled them, but at least the still had Melee, which 6th - took away. Seriously, does anyone here really think that not capping Ork Ld 10 is going to make them extremely powerful? They already do more harm than good to their own, would it be so bad that they might stay on the table a round longer?

It's ok when your 10 Bikker Nob Squad takes 6 wounds, from Doom popping out of a Mysetic Spore. and now I have lost 2 (50 pt) bikers and have to fight this now Str 8 Wound 8 monster, instead of heading out and doing something useful

Those bikers get their cover save.. and 1 stray Power Klaw to the face will eat all 8 wounds on said Doom.

They got their 4+ cover, even though it was night fighting, the doom landed only 2" from the nob unit. They also had Feel No Pain which is why I lost 2 instead of 3. Certainly, killing the thing was easy, but there is still a Mysetic Spore to deal with and even if I ignored the spore, My first turn was spend without leaving my deployment zone.

So now my strongest unit is tied up and it allowed my opponent the opportunity to get into kill shot of me. 80 Points well spent for the Tyanids. and take advantage they did, Second turn was mostly movement on both side, I killed the Doom and then 3 Carnifex unleash a devastating attack, killing 3 more. I failed my leadership test, Bosspoled and passed it. I finally move my now 7 in the unit Bikkers - I get to shoot the Carnifexes hit 6 times and caused 4 wounds, all saved no damage, one of my lootas in a Battlewagon, battle wagon explodes, removing 7 they fail Ld and rout off the board. his second group of Hive Guards only wreak my second battlewagon and my Lootas MV so can only snap shot. Warbikker squad untouched takes out the Mysetic Spore. Turn 3 - Nob Bikkers gone taking Gutsmek and Warboss with them. 2 waves of Hive Guard shot at my Warbikkers (no cover save) they are wiped, taking with them my ability to take objectives. 15 Lootas, shoot and take out the one unit of Hive Guard. Turn 4 - I'm tabled

 Sleg wrote:
They got their 4+ cover, even though it was night fighting, the doom landed only 2" from the nob unit. They also had Feel No Pain which is why I lost 2 instead of 3. Certainly, killing the thing was easy, but there is still a Mysetic Spore to deal with and even if I ignored the spore, My first turn was spend without leaving my deployment zone.

So now my strongest unit is tied up and it allowed my opponent the opportunity to get into kill shot of me. 80 Points well spent for the Tyanids. and take advantage they did, Second turn was mostly movement on both side, I killed the Doom and then 3 Carnifex unleash a devastating attack, killing 3 more. I failed my leadership test, Bosspoled and passed it. I finally move my now 7 in the unit Bikkers - I get to shoot the Carnifexes hit 6 times and caused 4 wounds, all saved no damage, one of my lootas in a Battlewagon, battle wagon explodes, removing 7 they fail Ld and rout off the board. his second group of Hive Guards only wreak my second battlewagon and my Lootas MV so can only snap shot. Warbikker squad untouched takes out the Mysetic Spore. Turn 3 - Nob Bikkers gone taking Gutsmek and Warboss with them. 2 waves of Hive Guard shot at my Warbikkers (no cover save) they are wiped, taking with them my ability to take objectives. 15 Lootas, shoot and take out the one unit of Hive Guard. Turn 4 - I'm tabled

First: the Spod (and the Doom) can't come in until Turn 2, so if you spent your entire first turn in your deployment zone...
Second: Mycetic Spore (like the Doom) is T4. One PK wound it is dead.
Third: Doom with Spod is 130 pts minimum.

 Sleg wrote:
They got their 4+ cover, even though it was night fighting, the doom landed only 2" from the nob unit. They also had Feel No Pain which is why I lost 2 instead of 3. Certainly, killing the thing was easy, but there is still a Mysetic Spore to deal with and even if I ignored the spore, My first turn was spend without leaving my deployment zone.

So now my strongest unit is tied up and it allowed my opponent the opportunity to get into kill shot of me. 80 Points well spent for the Tyanids. and take advantage they did, Second turn was mostly movement on both side, I killed the Doom and then 3 Carnifex unleash a devastating attack, killing 3 more. I failed my leadership test, Bosspoled and passed it. I finally move my now 7 in the unit Bikkers - I get to shoot the Carnifexes hit 6 times and caused 4 wounds, all saved no damage, one of my lootas in a Battlewagon, battle wagon explodes, removing 7 they fail Ld and rout off the board. his second group of Hive Guards only wreak my second battlewagon and my Lootas MV so can only snap shot. Warbikker squad untouched takes out the Mysetic Spore. Turn 3 - Nob Bikkers gone taking Gutsmek and Warboss with them. 2 waves of Hive Guard shot at my Warbikkers (no cover save) they are wiped, taking with them my ability to take objectives. 15 Lootas, shoot and take out the one unit of Hive Guard. Turn 4 - I'm tabled

Sounds to me, this is less YMDC and more a tactics issue.

 Sleg wrote:
They got their 4+ cover, even though it was night fighting, the doom landed only 2" from the nob unit. They also had Feel No Pain which is why I lost 2 instead of 3. Certainly, killing the thing was easy, but there is still a Mysetic Spore to deal with and even if I ignored the spore, My first turn was spend without leaving my deployment zone.

So now my strongest unit is tied up and it allowed my opponent the opportunity to get into kill shot of me. 80 Points well spent for the Tyanids. and take advantage they did, Second turn was mostly movement on both side, I killed the Doom and then 3 Carnifex unleash a devastating attack, killing 3 more. I failed my leadership test, Bosspoled and passed it. I finally move my now 7 in the unit Bikkers - I get to shoot the Carnifexes hit 6 times and caused 4 wounds, all saved no damage, one of my lootas in a Battlewagon, battle wagon explodes, removing 7 they fail Ld and rout off the board. his second group of Hive Guards only wreak my second battlewagon and my Lootas MV so can only snap shot. Warbikker squad untouched takes out the Mysetic Spore. Turn 3 - Nob Bikkers gone taking Gutsmek and Warboss with them. 2 waves of Hive Guard shot at my Warbikkers (no cover save) they are wiped, taking with them my ability to take objectives. 15 Lootas, shoot and take out the one unit of Hive Guard. Turn 4 - I'm tabled

take a painboy and make the bikers cybork, you get a invuln save and fnp to back it up.
Put your list in the army area to see if people can help you with it.

but if orks aren't working for you, by all means send them to me or shelf them til the new codex.

 Sleg wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yea, weak Space Marines that can have units 30 strong with assault 3 weapons...

That would be awesome if you can have 30 Ork Boyz with Big Shootas, Sadly you need 30 ork Boyz to only get 3 Big Shootas - with an average of a single hit per, because of BS2. Yep it's awesome! put them against a 5 man squad of terminators with Bolter Shots, and Plama Guns. doesn't favor the Orks.

Thats right, shootas are assault 2, not assault 3.

So 60 shots, 19.8 hits, 9.9 wounds = 3.267 unsaved wounds on Power armor, or 1.58 wounds on Terminator armor all for 180 points for a unit of 30...

First of all, I think a sizable portion of the people that have responded in here are Ork players themselves, including me. This isn't about crapping all over an army, it's about correctly understanding the rules. And just because Mob Rule doesn't take Ld above 10 it doesn't mean it's suddenly awful. Considering how fast the average Ork dies, Fearless is a *fantastic* aid in every game. And do you seriously have trouble passing psychic tests with Ld 10?
Second, Orks are weaker Space Marines. Yeah well at 6 pts each they damn well better be weaker, but as far as no advantage goes, how many armies have access to 6 pt models with two attacks each and Assault 2 weapons?
As for the Waaagh! rule, it's true it isn't as good as it used to be. But I for one have rolled enough awful charge distances to really appreciate the re-roll. It can still be a real life saver.

tgjensen wrote:
First of all, I think a sizable portion of the people that have responded in here are Ork players themselves, including me. This isn't about crapping all over an army, it's about correctly understanding the rules. And just because Mob Rule doesn't take Ld above 10 it doesn't mean it's suddenly awful. Considering how fast the average Ork dies, Fearless is a *fantastic* aid in every game. And do you seriously have trouble passing psychic tests with Ld 10?
Second, Orks are weaker Space Marines. Yeah well at 6 pts each they damn well better be weaker, but as far as no advantage goes, how many armies have access to 6 pt models with two attacks each and Assault 2 weapons?
As for the Waaagh! rule, it's true it isn't as good as it used to be. But I for one have rolled enough awful charge distances to really appreciate the re-roll. It can still be a real life saver.

I disagree. with why don't you read P.2 of BRB and Because it's not responses. It was pretty clear that I was being attacked and not shown that that I needed to look at it from the 6th edition rules perspective. All horde armies have better BS, and if they lose half their unit it doesn't matter because the figures are cheaper. Orks have to pay, in order to maintain a high Ld for saves, it's either with numbers or armor. when they had the advantage of going above 10, it was a change in tactics for the opponent. Now all they have to do is barrage, use a template weapon or just stay back and shoot. Last I think I've been taking this too personally and probably should take a break from the forum for awhile. though if I come back, I promises no crazy notions or ideas.

I've never attacked you. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Sing - nothing was an attack. It also isnt 6th edition either - they have been Ld10 when 10 models or more since 4th edition. The more specific rule (ld capped at 10) beats the codes rule. In 6th they just made it easier to work out, by including the modifiers rule on page 2.

Orks low BS means nothing when they throw as many dice as they do. Firstly you are more likely to get the average number of shots, due to law of large numbers, making you MORE reliable than marines. Secondly - why go after the doom with your bikers? A) they should have been in your opponents deployment zone turn 1, so by turn 2 when the doom can first turn up (you have read reserves rules?) on a 3+ chance only, your opponent has to choose to hit your nobz, threatening his home, or drop it in your deployment zone, and b) if he drops near your nobs...you can ALWAYS move faster than the doom. Always.

 Sleg wrote:
They got their 4+ cover, even though it was night fighting, the doom landed only 2" from the nob unit. They also had Feel No Pain which is why I lost 2 instead of 3. Certainly, killing the thing was easy, but there is still a Mysetic Spore to deal with and even if I ignored the spore, My first turn was spend without leaving my deployment zone.

Doom is without a doubt one of the top 10 Beardiest models across all the armies. Don't judge Orks too poorly because you lost expensive models to him.

That being said, Orks are seriously in need of a refresh. They're not totally useless by any means, but many of our viable armies in 5th Edition just don't work anymore. Going complete Dakka with Orks is pretty much the only way to go.

I would just like to say when a 90 pt model takes out a Haemonculus, Succubus, a squad of Wyches and a squad of Kabalite Warriors without dying...there is something wrong (of course having Iron Arm and Endurance casted on him helped me...)

I wouldn't consider losses to the The doom of Malan'tai to be the fault of the army facing it, but simply bad luck.

Needless to say I do not have good luck and really hate going up against this model. This is made even more obvious as my primary army have lower then average leadership scores to begin with. I have had that thing, Mr. Doom there, seriously cripple three or four units before managing to take it down. The added insult was most of the damage happened before I was able to get a shot off, thanks to the spirit leech ability occurring in both players turns. Just a little bit of bad luck, and a fairly good ability to begin with, goes a long way to having the casualties pile up.

I consider one of those units you must seriously consider purchasing, if your a Tyranid player, because it has the potential to really mess up gun lines and can be delivered right into the middle of them through spore pods.

To be fair he only lost a couple of models to Spirit Leech. The rest was from combat and Sweeping Advance. He laso lost a squad of Warriors to Swepping Advance from a Tervigon.

The thing that makes Doom the most beardy, IMO... besides the fact that it is RIDICULOUSLY undercosted and the fact that you can buy a Spore for him to unerringly Deep Strike wherever you want him...

Is the fact that you don't have to actually DO anything with him for his crazy good ability to work. Just get in that 6" bubble, and that's it. The player controlling Doom doesn't have to roll any dice whatsoever. It just happens, and it can insta-kill very expensive models. To make matters worse it happens on BOTH player turns. I can't think of a single ability in the game that has the potential to damage you on both your OWN turn AND on your opponent's turn like that. It's just nuts.

I'm looking forward to Tyranids getting their updated codex. First of all they need more competitive builds besides just filling the table with Tervigons and Flying Hive Tyrants. Second, Doom needs a nerf-bat, and while they're at it so do Hive Guard. Ever since they got FAQed and their ability suddenly got re-written to essentially ignore all cover except area terrain, they're also just too much of a gimme. When, as a player, you have a unit that is SO cost effective and good at its job that you might as well just fill up your Force Org with as many as you can possibly take, eschewing all other choices, something is out of whack.

I think we are getting off-topic here.

I agree that the Doom is too cheap for his potential. On the other hand he has provided countless First Blood for my opponents. Which takes up all of their shooting .