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Thanks for the info, Enigwolf! Good to know SoB aren't about to get Squatted, at least

 Enigwolf wrote:
And yes, that's sprueless GW plastics packaged in ziplock bags with an awesome-looking booklet with the rules inside.

Citadel FineBag™

A report from Mauler is on Warseer, who also attended the event:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?376590-Some-Stuff-From-Into-The-Citadel

 Enigwolf wrote:
It's apparently also hard to "get rid" of a dex's contents once introduced, so no fear of Codex: Black Templars, etc. becoming a supplement.

I wasn't there so can't read into how it was said, but just from this line, it does not seem to indicate that BT will still get a Dex, just that the contents (a few characters, one unique unit, some USRs) will not be "gotten rid of"

Herzlos wrote:
Is the plastic re-useable? I'm wondering if this sprueless thing is a move to re-use the sprue waste, or if it's just a case of having it clipped out to fit into a smaller box?

I don't imagine it'd be too difficult to have a metal die made that'd cut out the sprue parts after it'd been moulded, but it's probably still going to involve a lot of extra handling.

A die isn't used to "cut out" the sprue. It's a process called "direct injection" where the plastic get injected directly into the part's cavity as opposed to being injected into a sprue which then directs the plastic into the part's cavity.

Basically it's how LEGO has been making their bricks for decades.

The molds for direct injection are more expensive and time consuming to make, but it reduces material and production costs significantly.

Also, since the parts have no sprues when the ejector pins push the parts out of the cavity the parts fall into a automatic bagging machine located underneath the injection molding machine so you don't have to have a person physically filling bags all day. Makes packing much faster.

So instead of a bunch of sprues being packed into storage boxes and taking up warehouse space until they get packed into retail packaging, the parts are packed directly into retail packaging right out of the machine. Not having to store the same sprues in multiple locations reduces inventory, speeds up packing and production and also reduces the amount of product you have to inventory.

IIRC GW has been using this method for several years for their bases.

Wish I'd gone to this now, especially as you say it was easy to spend time with the staff. I was in Nottingham on Saturday as well (also, I'm almost certain I saw Alan Bligh on the tram).

Were I a Sisters player I'd be feeling optimistic after reading this, because at least it looks like they're still in the minds of the studio staff. You never know, the part about them never being switched over to plastic could even, if you Sisters players are lucky, lead to them getting a relaunch from the ground up à la Dark Eldar.

Here we go. This was the full line-up.



Developing the Eldar & side conversations with Jes Goodwin+Phil Kelly
Eldar are more than elves in space.
Phil and Jes clearly have a VERY good working relationship. It's evident in how friendly they are with each other, the jokes they crack, and how much they defer to the other person when it comes to different things.
Eldar were designed as a "shades of grey" race - they're not "good", or "bad". Same goes with Dark Eldar.
Eldar have been in development for the last 10 or so years
Design elements wise, there is a strong emphasis on triangles. In fact, the Eldar "shape" is a triangle, from their body, to their weapons, armour, vehicles - the triangle is the "strongest shape". It's also in Jes Goodwin's signature.
Eldar and Dark Eldar are supposed to share the same, main design aesthetics. On the table top, an Eldar vehicle should look perfectly at home next to a Dark Eldar vehicle and not how an Ork would stick out in the middle of a Tau army.
There are 3 Eldar "scripts" for their runes - hierographs that represent an idea, script "writing", and I don't remember what the last one was called, but it's the big square ones that represent personal heraldry. There is no English->Eldar conversion chart like there is for the Tau language.
Glad they finally have the technology to make big models. There was a "gap" in the "Wraith" range going from Wraithguard->Wraithlord->Titan, and so this space was filled with the Wraithknight. The Wraithknight is scaled and inspired by the Epic 40k Knight-class of Titans. They wanted to include the 4-legged one, but it didn't fit in with the design aesthetic of the Eldar.
The Iyanden supplement wasn't really planned, but it had been talked about internally for a long time
Phil Kelly wants to see supplements done for the traitor legions and space marines. In fact, he wish he could've included more of these into the original 'dexes.
Physical copy of the Farsight supplement will be available in October.
Only 60% of stuff that gets developed by the designers actually ends up in the codices. The rest get put into a big pile of stuff to be looked at again in the future.
Jes Goodwin is annoyed by the need to keep lots of stuff and design docs secret, he wishes he could share them with the world, as well as his sketches.
Two rounds of playtesting: Internal to get the "feel" within the designers. Once that is achieved, it goes external (with other non-designers and devs in GW. They used to use tourney playtesters, but then realized they were potentially leaking a lot of information. So now they keep it all within the family)
Matt Ward came up with Battle Focus
Phil Kelly confirms that fluff drives the design of the race, which drives the models, which drive the rules. Talks about wanting to do an Exodite supplement. There is a lot of "Sleeping IP" from the leftover 40% each time a 'dex gets released.
Phil Kelly states that a race is defined by their weaknesses as much as their strengths. An example is the Guardians, who are a "last resort" for the Craftworld. That's why their weapons are range 12".
Eldar are defined as a race that is T3 S3 race, but one that has a higher Init and WS/BS.
There was no point and no place for Storm Guardians within the 'dex.
Artifacts of system design affect the rules (hence why Eldar still have to generate psychic powers randomly despite being psychic masters. Nothing they can do about this - it's fairness across the board)
They had to choose between working on Wraithguards and Jetbikes.
There is a fear now that they cannot release rules without models. Although they view this as a "blessing in disguise". Also, they have a lot more sculptors now, so it's all good.
Supplements allow for smaller releases, and thus a faster release schedule overall.

Developing Apocalypse
Apocalypse was designed to be more "fun" this time round
Your warlord is meant to be your representation on the battlefield
Apoc is meant to break free of restrictions. Hence, in the Allies Chart, "Come The Apocalypse" is a direct reference to all armies being allowed to accompany each other in Apoc. This was confirmed as intentional by Jervis and Phil.
Old Datasheets will return in Warzones if they aren't already back
Apoc is meant to be casual, fun, and was only limited by the book's page count and players' imaginations
Some wild stuff went into the Pandorax Warzone, including dinosaurs, space boards, asteroids, etc.
Phil Kelly initially designed a Khorne "blade" power that, when used in its first play-test game, removed 9 flyers instantly. It was awkward for all players involved, and deemed too powerful after the game.
They thoroughly enjoyed working with Forge World on it, and even mused that Forge World loves them because their Titan sales spiked the first time round.
Phil Kelly states that Warzones are intended to be more than "supplements", they're directly inspired by the Imperial Armour books and intended to be smaller versions of them, with fluff and background in the beginning and then rules after.
When asked for their various sources of inspiration...
Guy Haley: "Inspiration? Whiskey bottle!" -> Later corrects this joke, states that hard science fiction facts and science in general inspires him.
Phil Kelly: Greek mythology. But not to the point where he is re-creating Greek mythology in space.
Jervis Johnson: Military history. Particularly for the Pandorax Warzone, it was WW2 naval maps.
There used to be a "Master of Disasters" role, and internally they had the guy wear a funny helmet.

Developing Big Miniatures
Riptide was intentionally designed with an asymmetric backpack - one side is the Nova reactor (the large one) and the other side is its regular reactor
When it came to poses, the team decided to lock in one fixed pose that's really cool and dynamic for those who want to simply build and play with it, and have small pegs that can be clipped off to allow for full re-poseability. This is the standard for all large miniatures moving forward.
Knight-class Titans are the limit before Forge World "takes over"
A joke is made about a Tyrannid flying aircraft carrier (Harridan)
Big miniatures have only become really possible recently because of limitations of mould details, as well as plastic minimum and maximum thicknesses.
Jes Goodwin: "We're designers, not artists".
Large miniatures are intended as "icing on the cake" to a codex, and they are keenly aware not to drive 40k in the direction of MC hero-hammers ala WHFB
Certain injection moulding techs that the designers really want GW to buy haven't been acquired yet as they are incredibly expensive, so there are a lot of possibilities and room for further development in terms of kit quality
Plastics are by far the best representations of the designer's master model. They intend for plastics to fully take over from resin, metal, and finecast.
They have to design for an industrial process as well as for aesthetics.

Ask the Audience
This section was mostly them asking us, but there's some snippets gained from this.
GW has more sculptors = more models = faster releases now
The devs themselves are generally happy with the faster release schedule as well
I suggested including an Army Builder into the e-Codices, Phil Kelly thought it was a really good idea and promised it would be noted and taken a look into.
Pictures and drawings now put the perspective cloesr to the ground so that you can "appreciate the bigger stuff". Also to create the epic cinematic feel where you feel like you're on the battlefield as a commander.
Phil Kelly confirms that Sisters of Battle could not be plastic moulded (and told us to check with Jes Goodwin for more information - I stupidly forgot to do so). He mentioned it had something to do with the amount of detail on every side and the way that the moulds were limited in two directions as well as their method of release.
Traitor guard are "not different enough" from normal guard. Don't expect to see them.
"Come the Apocalypse" was intentional.

Writing 40k Background/Lore
Black Library was recently restructured into under the same roof as the other Citadel writers, leading to more fluff consistency
Black Library books are canon. Yes. Canon.
Guy Haley is writing a new Eldar book, he couldn't talk more about it but was really excited.
It is impossible to write from a Tyrannid perspective, and the closest done so far is from that of a Genestealer in Death of Integrity, and only because Genestealers were meant to interface with us. It is impossible to encapsulate and put in writing how the gestalt consciousness of the hive mind works, as every creature is part of the same consciousness across the universe and not, all at the same time.
Black Library will always provide an explanation, even for things in 'dexes which are ridiculous. ANYTHING can be explained, even if it's merely "The Warp Did It".
An example of this is Kaldor Draigo carving the name on Mortarion's heart. This is being written by a BL author right now, apparently it's believable as to how it happened.
Graeme Lyon confirms that the universe will never advance to M42, and will always stay at 999.M41. If they run out of things to write about in M41, they'll look back and visit other timelines like the Badab War, the Age of Apostasy, etc.

I have a lot of other fun facts that I didn't write down, feel free to post questions and I'll answer as best as I can...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
It's apparently also hard to "get rid" of a dex's contents once introduced, so no fear of Codex: Black Templars, etc. becoming a supplement.

I wasn't there so can't read into how it was said, but just from this line, it does not seem to indicate that BT will still get a Dex, just that the contents (a few characters, one unique unit, some USRs) will not be "gotten rid of"

The way Phil Kelly explained it to me, they aren't going to "axe" any 'dexes. Hence why the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters transition to Grey Knights particularly puzzled him and other devs. Well aware that it upset people too, and he himself played Daemonhunters.

Other Random Stuff
Rapid prototyping is very commonly used in GW
A lot of newer sculptors sculpt straight on the computer and don't use physical sculpting, and so building things out of putty, plasticard, etc. is seen as a "dying" skill.
There is an internal joke/competition of how well Jes Goodwin manages to make the symmetry of his models when they are scanned in. The last one, the Eldar flyer he made, elicited responses of "How did you do that?! That's not possible!!!"
The Tesseract Vault is HUUUUUGE when opened. It was easily larger than the length of my hand and fingers, and I used to play the piano.
Even GW writers have amazingly painted armies.
Phil Kelly is sad that his hierophant's stand went missing, so its legs are starting to warp from the weight now.
Phil Kelly, as well as other designers, are not worried about the advent of 3D printing. Tech is still too far away to be used for the fidelity of scale miniatures.
Phil Kelly loves daemon engines. He also loves converting and kitbashing them, as evident by his Iron Warriors army.
Looking at the above 3 statements, I am a Phil Kelly fanboy. I want to frame a picture I have with him lol.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fezman wrote:
Wish I'd gone to this now, especially as you say it was easy to spend time with the staff. I was in Nottingham on Saturday as well (also, I'm almost certain I saw Alan Bligh on the tram).

Were I a Sisters player I'd be feeling optimistic after reading this, because at least it looks like they're still in the minds of the studio staff. You never know, the part about them never being switched over to plastic could even, if you Sisters players are lucky, lead to them getting a relaunch from the ground up à la Dark Eldar.

I didn't see Alan Bligh unfortunately. :( He wasn't at the event, but you definitely should have come! I literally had Phil Kelly to myself for all of 20 minutes to quiz about Eldar development, quizzed Jes on a lot of his more classic designs, as well as explain Eldar runes in-depth (as well as his signature, which looks like an Eldar rune!) Talked a lot with Guy Haley about the new Chaos 'dex, too. Talked a lot to Jervis about Planetstrike and Apoc.

Thanks for your report, very interesting read.

I have some questions about SoB.

I asked almost all of them about SoBs, and from the sounds of it it's not in the pipeline anytime soon. However, Phil Kelly has expressed interest in it

So Phil Kelly said that he would be interested in doing Sisters? What was his actual words if you can recall?

Did you get a feel that a Sisters codex was being progressed or was just sitting on the shelf as something to do in the future?

Phil Kelly confirms that Sisters of Battle could not be plastic moulded (and told us to check with Jes Goodwin for more information - I stupidly forgot to do so). He mentioned it had something to do with the amount of detail on every side and the way that the moulds were limited in two directions as well as their method of release.

So this was for the 'current' plastic process and not the old one from a few years ago. I would have hoped that they had worked there way round that problem by now. How about just releasing less 'fancy' models to at least get some plastic Sisters out there.

Thanks again for the feedback.

No, I didn't get a feeling that a Sisters codex was being worked on. I got a sensing that the designers wanted to see a come-back to it, but it wasn't a high priority, and was rather more of a "that'd be cool to see" kind of thing.

Phil Kelly didn't outright say that he would be interested in doing the 'dex for it, but he implied that he had an interest in the army itself. I don't recall the exact words he used, as this was part of a long conversation I had with him and wasn't able to scribble down notes as I could with the seminars.

I'm not sure if he was referring to the current or past plastic process either. I wasn't aware there was a difference either, so I never thought to ask.

 mechanicalhorizon wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
Is the plastic re-useable? I'm wondering if this sprueless thing is a move to re-use the sprue waste, or if it's just a case of having it clipped out to fit into a smaller box?

I don't imagine it'd be too difficult to have a metal die made that'd cut out the sprue parts after it'd been moulded, but it's probably still going to involve a lot of extra handling.

A die isn't used to "cut out" the sprue. It's a process called "direct injection" where the plastic get injected directly into the part's cavity as opposed to being injected into a sprue which then directs the plastic into the part's cavity.

Basically it's how LEGO has been making their bricks for decades.

The molds for direct injection are more expensive and time consuming to make, but it reduces material and production costs significantly.

Also, since the parts have no sprues when the ejector pins push the parts out of the cavity the parts fall into a automatic bagging machine located underneath the injection molding machine so you don't have to have a person physically filling bags all day. Makes packing much faster.

So instead of a bunch of sprues being packed into storage boxes and taking up warehouse space until they get packed into retail packaging, the parts are packed directly into retail packaging right out of the machine. Not having to store the same sprues in multiple locations reduces inventory, speeds up packing and production and also reduces the amount of product you have to inventory.

IIRC GW has been using this method for several years for their bases.

That seems like a vast improvement, thanks for the information

I take it this only really makes sense on bigger kits, or will we eventually see it happen with infantry sprues and the like?

 Fezman wrote:
Were I a Sisters player I'd be feeling optimistic after reading this, because at least it looks like they're still in the minds of the studio staff.

If I'm not mistaken, they also insisted Squats would continue to be supported up until the moment they weren't.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Were I a Sisters player I'd be feeling optimistic after reading this, because at least it looks like they're still in the minds of the studio staff.

If I'm not mistaken, they also insisted Squats would continue to be supported up until the moment they weren't.

Didn't GW lose the rights to Squats because the designer left and took the concept with him as it were? I'm pretty sure SoBs are IP of GW, so it's not gonna happen.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Were I a Sisters player I'd be feeling optimistic after reading this, because at least it looks like they're still in the minds of the studio staff.

If I'm not mistaken, they also insisted Squats would continue to be supported up until the moment they weren't.

Didn't GW lose the rights to Squats because the designer left and took the concept with him as it were? I'm pretty sure SoBs are IP of GW, so it's not gonna happen.

It's widely accepted that the Squats were left to rot as the studio was unhappy with their slightly comic, rather generic (ha!) role, but none of the designers could get excited/inspired enough to find a way forward for them. So, even if the Squats as we remember them did go with their designer, those wouldn't be the Squats we would have had today.

Thanks again for your summary!

 azreal13 wrote:


It's widely accepted that the Squats were left to rot as the studio was unhappy with their slightly comic, rather generic (ha!) role, but none of the designers could get excited/inspired enough to find a way forward for them. So, even if the Squats as we remember them did go with their designer, those wouldn't be the Squats we would have had today.

That was basically the answer I got when I asked about Squats at a Games Day way back in 1993/4. They were dropped because nobody within the studio liked them, which does not seem to be case with sisters.

Phil Kelly didn't outright say that he would be interested in doing the 'dex for it, but he implied that he had an interest in the army itself. I don't recall the exact words he used, as this was part of a long conversation I had with him

That would certainly match what I have got in writing where he said "I really like the army dynamic and style" so it does seem that Sisters have considerably more support than Squats in the studio.

I'm not sure if he was referring to the current or past plastic process either. I wasn't aware there was a difference either, so I never thought to ask.

Ah, for info, they were saying that Sisters were having problems with production of the plastic models even before the Dark Eldar were released. It was hoped that the improvements in plastic model production made for the DE would have enabled GW to produce the SoB.

I suppose if they had released a slightly OP White Dwarf codex they would have sold out of the metal by now and would have been forced to finecast the SoB. As is with a meh codex the metals figures can last till they sort out the plastic production.

Eldar were designed as a "shades of grey" race - they're not "good", or "bad". Same goes with Dark Eldar.

Who said this anyway?

I'm not seeing how torture advocate/space perverts can be seen as a "grey" race personally.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Phil Kelly wants to see supplements done for the traitor legions and space marines. In fact, he wish he could've included more of these into the original 'dexes.

Oh, I bet he does. Too bad he didn't actually try harder (or at all) on the actual Chaos Space Marine codex or the legion supplements would have been moot. What a tool.

Matt Ward came up with Battle Focus

Of course he did, it's one of the most interesting and flavorful things in the codex.

Phil Kelly initially designed a Khorne "blade" power that, when used in its first play-test game, removed 9 flyers instantly. It was awkward for all players involved, and deemed too powerful after the game.

But D-Weapons WEREN'T too powerful? Oh wait, it's Khorne and we're not allowed to have anything viable. I forgot about that.

Comparing a D-Weapon to a weapon that can kill 9 flyers instantly is a bit daft, Vlad.

Was there any discussion of what they were thinking when they made the Hemlock Wraithfighter rules wise? I mean, did anyone happen to ask why they made an armour 10 flyer that has a weapon that is only range 12 so it HAS to hang out at double tap range of guns like Boltguns, just to be able to use it? and why did they also give this flyer a spell that cannot be used on the turn it arrives from reserve? And its only protection once its been hit is a jink save?

I don't mean to sound rude, that isn't my intent, my tone is hard to convey on the internet, but I would think rules questions would be one of the first things someone would ask the designer of a codex if they got lucky enough to spend some time with him.

So did you get to ask any rules related questions?

 Enigwolf wrote:

Didn't GW lose the rights to Squats because the designer left and took the concept with him as it were? I'm pretty sure SoBs are IP of GW, so it's not gonna happen.

Not heard that theory, but a similar theory was often applied to Malal, the 5th Beatle. I mean, Chaos God.

I don't see why SoB couldn't be made from plastic. They just need to make lithe power armoured warriors and add robes/capes. The already do separate robes/capes on a number of existing miniatures. Perhaps he was referencing the current design. Look at the dark eldar Wych or kabalite boxes, it's not like they're short on detail.

I have to agree with Vlad on the Chaos Legion point, try harder next time Phil. C-

 Medium of Death wrote:
I don't see why SoB couldn't be made from plastic. They just need to make lithe power armoured warriors and add robes/capes. The already do separate robes/capes on a number of existing miniatures. Perhaps he was referencing the current design. Look at the dark eldar Wych or kabalite boxes, it's not like they're short on detail.

I have to agree with Vlad on the Chaos Legion point, try harder next time Phil. C-

I recall several years ago, Jes Goodwin claimed that they weren't able to get the sleeves to look right for multi-posing. The sisters have hanging sleeves which would look weird at the wrong angle. BUt given GW has been moving more to mono pose models, I wouldn't think this would be as much of an issue.

Modern technology can do the SoB models the way they would want to do them, but whether or not GW has that technology is uncertain. I noticed one of the GW devs commented about something similar, that they don't have the latest and coolest tech they would like to have.

mattyrm wrote:

Eldar were designed as a "shades of grey" race - they're not "good", or "bad". Same goes with Dark Eldar.

Who said this anyway?

I'm not seeing how torture advocate/space perverts can be seen as a "grey" race personally.

Both Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin. There's a reason why both CE and DE are Battle Brothers. They likened it to a "family feud" kinda thing - they'll fight all the time, but if someone picks on them, they'll come together just to kick the outsider's ass. DE are meant to represent the "older" Eldar from the Fall, while the CE are the "younger" ones who are learning from the lessons of their predecessors. Yes, DE may be seen from our perspective as torture perverts, but to them it's "normal" just as how cannibalism is normal in some cultures on Earth, and even the Kroot do it too. And I can't remember if it was Phil or Jes who said this, but this goes so much so that they stray so far into the area of body modification so much in order to "better" themselves that they end up looking like what they were modifying themselves to fight.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Phil Kelly wants to see supplements done for the traitor legions and space marines. In fact, he wish he could've included more of these into the original 'dexes.

Oh, I bet he does. Too bad he didn't actually try harder (or at all) on the actual Chaos Space Marine codex or the legion supplements would have been moot. What a tool.

He was limited by page limit on the Chaos 'dex, and he wanted to give the Legions justice rather than just a page entry like they did before, no matter how much fans/him loved them.

Phil Kelly is not a tool. He is by far one of the nicest developers I've ever met, and never once did I hear a "I can't talk about that" from him unless it was a question about future releases.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Phil Kelly initially designed a Khorne "blade" power that, when used in its first play-test game, removed 9 flyers instantly. It was awkward for all players involved, and deemed too powerful after the game.

But D-Weapons WEREN'T too powerful? Oh wait, it's Khorne and we're not allowed to have anything viable. I forgot about that.

You can't compare a power that removes 9 Zooming flyers from half the battlefield away to D-weapons.

Take your hate elsewhere, please. This thread is NOT derailing into a hate-fest.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Was there any discussion of what they were thinking when they made the Hemlock Wraithfighter rules wise? I mean, did anyone happen to ask why they made an armour 10 flyer that has a weapon that is only range 12 so it HAS to hang out at double tap range of guns like Boltguns, just to be able to use it? and why did they also give this flyer a spell that cannot be used on the turn it arrives from reserve? And its only protection once its been hit is a jink save?

I don't mean to sound rude, that isn't my intent, my tone is hard to convey on the internet, but I would think rules questions would be one of the first things someone would ask the designer of a codex if they got lucky enough to spend some time with him.

So did you get to ask any rules related questions?

Yes. Unfortunately, the bar was already set with the Stormraven being the equivalent of a "flying Land Raider". Phil himself admits that between AV 10 and AV 12 (of which AV12 definitely won't be used for Eldar, since that's Flyers' AV14 equivalent), there's really not much room to play with, especially given that Eldar are that much more fragile than Space Marines. Then factor in that you have the mid-durability races and their flyers in between. On a personal input stance, look at even the Apocalypse/Forge World flyers for Eldar - they're really fragile too. It "sort of" fits with the glass cannon theme. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the Eldar codex enough to ask those questions, that's why I was trying to collect questions before I went, but almost no one gave me any to work with. :(

I did get the sensing that Phil was less than happy about how the Eldar flyers came out, though.

Tannhauser42 wrote:Modern technology can do the SoB models the way they would want to do them, but whether or not GW has that technology is uncertain. I noticed one of the GW devs commented about something similar, that they don't have the latest and coolest tech they would like to have.

Correct. As mentioned before, miniatures designers in GW have been pushing the company to update their casting tech to something newer (it wasn't specified what).

Regarding SoBs in general, yes, the feeling I got from everyone I spoke to there was that SoBs still had support within GW and that they wanted to see a comeback of it some day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing I remembered, I inquired about Wave Serpents as my first question to Phil. When he was designing them (and this is common for a lot of designers), he harked back to the "old days" in Epic 40k where Wave Serpents could discharge their shield as a weapon. He wanted to see this implemented.

Wave Serpents are also meant to be the "premiere" transport. More powerful than anything else, and its points cost is meant to represent that. Even moreso than that, it's also designed to be a pseudo-battle tank once the troops within have disembarked, and this has always been the design philosophy for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Perhaps he was referencing the current design.

No, he was referencing the old design of why SoBs never made the port to plastic when everyone else did.


Keep the questions coming, guys. My memory doesn't last that long and I want to be able to make sure I transcribe and braindump everything I saw and heard at the event.

Ok, Thank you. At least now I know it wasn't necessarily intentional on the designers part. I used to work in the miniatures industry and there were many times where models would get designed, playtested, and were ready to go, but at the last minute, someone from the top would come down and change the entire way the model worked, right before the book went to the printer. That seems to be what happened here. Thanks again Enigwolf.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Keep the questions coming, guys. My memory doesn't last that long and I want to be able to make sure I transcribe and braindump everything I saw and heard at the event.

I got my specific question answered, but do you remember anything else about the new FW Apocalypse book?

I'll post for everyone else that the price was £30, with a release date in about 1-2 months.

Did they talk much about the process for designing rules to fit models, and designing models to fit rules?

Matt Ward came up with Battle Focus

So the best rule in this book..

Came from Ward.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Ok, Thank you. At least now I know it wasn't necessarily intentional on the designers part. I used to work in the miniatures industry and there were many times where models would get designed, playtested, and were ready to go, but at the last minute, someone from the top would come down and change the entire way the model worked, right before the book went to the printer. That seems to be what happened here. Thanks again Enigwolf.

No worries. I don't think it's so much an issue of someone coming down from the top and changing the way it is. I think the issue is more of that because the Stormraven already set the upper limits for what a flying Land Raider is, everything else has to scale in proportion to it.

Peregrine wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Keep the questions coming, guys. My memory doesn't last that long and I want to be able to make sure I transcribe and braindump everything I saw and heard at the event.

I got my specific question answered, but do you remember anything else about the new FW Apocalypse book?

I'll post for everyone else that the price was £30, with a release date in about 1-2 months.

Yup, as I mentioned to Peregrine, the price I paid for my pre-order was £30 to be delivered in a month or two. In terms of what else I remember, uhm, and aside from the IA:Apoc book list of contents.. Hm. I seem to remember that there are formations also within the IA:Apoc book. It stands to reason that these will be considered fully legal, since if you're playing Apoc you're also most likely playing with Forgeworld units anyway.

Micky wrote:Did they talk much about the process for designing rules to fit models, and designing models to fit rules?

All rules are designed to fit models. Models are not designed to fit rules. I specifically asked Phil the question, and I mentioned it in my report earlier.

Phil Kelly confirms that fluff drives the design of the race, which drives the models, which drive the rules.

Therefore, from this we can reason that it starts with the fluff and lore of the race being written (e.g. space elves that are more than just elves in space), followed by the design aesthetics of the race (e.g. Eldar are triangles). These then become sketches like we see in Jes Goodwin's work, which the designers sculpt models from. From the models, rules are created for them. Typically, there are enough designs created that each race is "balanced" in terms of unit options.