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I've been looking into many different armies recently, to see what I like and what I don't.

One thing I have had a thought about is updating my Iron Warriors which was stolen nearly a decade ago.

My Iron Warriors were a 3.5 ed army that won two tournaments in Canada and earned a 4th place position in a GT over here in the UK.

Now, with the new stuff that has been added to the CSM army, is a Competitive Shooty CSM army possible?

I'm looking at taking the following units:

Warsmith - To keep the Forgefiends going. Might even take a second one so I can fix more than one a turn.

Heldrakes - Yes... Two of them.

Forgefiends - Two with triple Ectoplasma Cannons, one with Autocannons.

Now the rest of the army is not as clear to me.

I have an idea that Helbrutes are not good, so I might not bother with them.

I might take a unit of Chaos Terminators for a CC counter attack unit.

What troop choices would be good here though?

CSM squads look quite efficient for their cost and they can be made for any purpose.

Trying to stay away from Marked Units, so no Plague Marines or Noise Marines.

I think it might work. Any comments or pointers?

One suggestion that works really well is Chosen. The starter box makes them into CC which I think is wrong. Terminators are better for that when comparing the points cost. Load out Chosen with plasma guns and the like. They can take several.

Havocs are also a good choice, but a common mistake I see from other players is to just kit them out with a squad of 5. That ensures you'll lose a heavy weapon with each casualty. I run them 10 strong to have a 5 man meat shield to soak some of the wounds.

You could also take defilers but many players are mixed on the effectiveness. You make the call on that one. I usually run one replacing flamer with the havoc launcher.

As for what you stated before, standard CSM squads are pretty versatile for the points cost and Termies are a good response unit with CC.

Can't think of much else non-marked off the top of my head besides what you already mentioned.

A straight unmarked pure shooting army is difficult.
I would start with an Unmarked Sorcerer using biomancy or telepathy.

Fiends vs Oblits vs Predators vs Havocs is a whole separate issue. People will have strong thoughts here.

"Easiest" pure shooting troops are MSU NM with BM. For unmarked, dual plasma or plasma & Autocannon or Lascannon.
Consider HMLs for Rhinos.

The other way to do unmarked is Big A unlocking Chosen.

At almost the cost of a lr ectoplasma cannons are just not woth it, hell im not sure if the forge fiend is even worth it.

As for havocs getting 10 seem like a really silly idea, so you get meatshields that are expensive and dont really do anything,. i see yhe point but depending on the list im not sure if they are all too worth it

termies are too slow to do anything maybe deep striking them isnt a bad idea.
The best weapon in the codex is probably the blaster master and not taking it might just be crippling yourself

Chosen are a great unit. Didn't think of them for a Shooty squad. Thanks for that.

Had a look at Defiler. The Ectoplasma Fiends are great against 2+ saves and some vehicles, whereas the Defiler has one shot and is no good against 2+ saves.

I'm not a great fan of Havocs though. They do bring a lot of Firepower, but as you say, need more bodies. Also, I prefer the Fiends, which do exactly the same thing.

Forgefiends aren't very good. Triple oblits would serve you better. Fiends are just too expensive and not impressive for their point cost.

The bs3 hurts especially with blast weapons and like others have said your really hampering yourself by not takin marked units and remeber oblit use to be tech marines according to the fluff so they will fit your theme quite well however giving them mon is you best bet to help prevent id issues from most weapons

For a pure shooting army, IMO, you most max out your troops (20 men squad), Havoc (ML with flack) and some Terminators.

I'm trying to stay away from marked units as best I can as I don't want it to be another case of Codex Nurgle and Heldrakes as that is what it mostly appears to be.

I know the Iron Warriors were mostly undivided, but there is fluff that some turned to the Dark Gods.

Perturabo even used a Nurgle Plague to win a battle.

I suppose it is ok to use the marks.

Or just explain as count as.
Noise Marines are experimental weapon specialist with high powered sensors and arrays for data gathering in the field.

 minigun762 wrote:
Or just explain as count as.
Noise Marines are experimental weapon specialist with high powered sensors and arrays for data gathering in the field.

That's brilliant.

But...


For competitive tourneys?

As long as its wysiwyg it's ok right?

Puscifer wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Or just explain as count as.
Noise Marines are experimental weapon specialist with high powered sensors and arrays for data gathering in the field.

That's brilliant.

But...


For competitive tourneys?

As long as its wysiwyg it's ok right?

Yes, I believe so. If tournaments didn't allow conversions, I'd be very disappointed and remain firmly in my stance to avoid them.

Puscifer wrote:

I have an idea that Helbrutes are not good, so I might not bother with them.

Hellbrutes combine shooting and assault. When you only want one or the other, that's what the Fiends are for. Hellbrutes are perfectly good when people take them for what they are for.

Puscifer wrote:

I might take a unit of Chaos Terminators for a CC counter attack unit.

Mutilators are the best counter-attack unit in the game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

I have an idea that Helbrutes are not good, so I might not bother with them.

Hellbrutes combine shooting and assault. When you only want one or the other, that's what the Fiends are for. Hellbrutes are perfectly good when people take them for what they are for.

Puscifer wrote:

I might take a unit of Chaos Terminators for a CC counter attack unit.

Mutilators are the best counter-attack unit in the game.

That may be so, but the models are still horrible

Which is why Ogres exist

Joking aside, how exactly are they the best CA unit in the game? Surely Praetorians are better?

Puscifer wrote:
I'm trying to stay away from marked units as best I can as I don't want it to be another case of Codex Nurgle and Heldrakes as that is what it mostly appears to be.

I see Obliterators and anything where a daemon is bound to a machine as fitting the idea of Iron Warriors, but I don't like the Heresy novels and have been away from the game for a decade.

I would take a Forgefiend or Maulerfiend and describe its background as the previous warlord of the army who slowly took on more mechanical mutations like an Obliterator before finally succumbing to a complete transformation.

I would suggest using any Daemon Engines you enjoy, Obliterators, and a few normal Chaos Marine squads to provide your mandatory troops. Chosen with extra special weapons seems like it'd probably be handy too.

Some allied guardsmen with basilisks is also pretty nice. You can dress the guardsmen up as better equipped cultists too.

Wait a minute... Mutilators are terrible. Not enough attacks. I like the models though.

This is starting to come together a little better.

Now... Plague Marines or Noise Marines?

They are both expensive on points, both have their place.

Puscifer wrote:
Wait a minute... Mutilators are terrible. Not enough attacks. I like the models though.

This is starting to come together a little better.

Now... Plague Marines or Noise Marines?

They are both expensive on points, both have their place.

If you are going Iron Warriors, I think NM might be better. They do have the guns for it, after all.

 Kain wrote:
Some allied guardsmen with basilisks is also pretty nice. You can dress the guardsmen up as better equipped cultists too.

Extreamly fluffy for Iron Warriors too. They loved their artillary

PM can just be heavily augmented IW that have undergone extensive biotic enhancement to make them truly "Iron Within". Really if your playing chaos you have to have imagination, as long as its wysiwyg you can do whatever counts as conversions you want. It is possible to be competitive and forge a narrative. Right now competitive for chaos is NM, PM, Oblits, and derpadactyles

Hmmmm... I had no idea NM were good in this edition.

This has opened up more options as Emperor's Children are by far my favourite legion.

Puscifer wrote:
Wait a minute... Mutilators are terrible.

I don't really want to start this debate again, but you are not correct.

They're the perfect counter-assault unit. They have an option for literally anything that shows up unlike say, Wraithblades, who are constrained against what they can kill. Mutilators always have the right weapon for the job.

They're durability is such that they can stride into pretty much anything too. Sure, they won't kill the Swarmlord or a warlord Skarbrand, but anything that doesn't cause Instant Death through the rule is going to be in trouble. Even Smashing isn't so good against them, unless it's something with a zillion bonus attacks.

If nothing is going to come at you, they're either capable of striding across the field mostly unfettered. If you're a shooting army, like this guy is presenting, you probably have something that needs to be shot now, rather than something trudging at you for assault, but then "oh no" they're in your line killing everything they touch. And if you don't feel like walking them, Deep Strike.

And the thing that actually sells them is their points cost. 61 points per model (let's just all rationally assume all Obliterators and Mutilators have the Mark of Nurgle) is not just cheap for what you're getting, their unit is just objectively cheap.

The only thing terrible about Mutilators is their models.

But that's the last I'll say on the subject in this thread. Continue to make invalid assumptions about them at your leisure.

Dude, Mutilators are bad... So many things serve as so much better counter assault units in the CMS codex. Not to mention those things will probably serve some other role if kitted out properly. Don't forget factoring in your Land Raider tax.

Back on topic. Obliterators Obliterators Obliterators. Did I say Obliterators? They're the take all come all swiss army knife of the chaos dex. Mark of Nurgle them and laugh at lascannons. 5+ invuln, fear if they do get charged, and fearless. What's not to love. If there's something on the board that's troubling you, deepstrike a 2 man unit (maybe 1 or 3, idk) next to it and blow it away. They really do have a gun for every job.

I don't like walking them up the table though. The game changer deepstriking some of these bad boys behind enemy lines makes people play differently (sometimes stupidly or over cautiously).

Havos pair nicely with a sorcerer with endurance. Endurance + FNP make them really lethal. I wouldn't do 10 man blobs cause you're wasting like 50 points on 5 ablative wounds that do nothing. 7 if you wanna be safe.

Forgefiends fail miserably with BS3, ectoplasm or hades variant. Helbrutes actually do fairly well as a shooting platform. Lascannon/ML has done well for me. Multimelta + DCCW + flamer would make a nice counter assault unit to chill near your flanks and defend.

Noise Marines rip xenos apart and are capable of putting a lot of saves onto a Marine unit. Don't forget you can take 2 Blast Masters per 10 man unit now.

Why would you give mutilators a landraider? If you are playing a gunline army, you would want them near your shooters to protect them from charges. That is the function of a counter attack unit, isn't it?

 Wingeds wrote:
fearless.

They don't have this anymore, LD8 no fearless. Lots of people suggest VotLW to help stop them running.

Defilers combine Maulerfiend and Forgefiend and only cost 20pts more than the latter. Not sure how fluffy these are for IW though, maybe someone else can comment.

Puscifer wrote:
Hmmmm... I had no idea NM were good in this edition.

This has opened up more options as Emperor's Children are by far my favourite legion.

They are very good, mostly as blastmaster squads but doom siren is nasty too. Sonics are a struggle to use well thanks to salvo's range reduction.

Forgefiends are great... if you ally in Tzeentch Daemons for Prescience. Without that, they're a bit inaccurate.

Noise Marines are great troops, either as MSU Blastmaster stuff, or as upfield combat dudes. You can take 1 per five as of the FAQ a few months ago, so they're nice backfield holders, as long as they're not your only troops.

Not sure how 'Iron Warrior'-y it is, but if you want a good shooty army involving chaos, I'd either ally in Tzeentch Daemons for that prescience and horror shooting, or ally in IG for a blob squad + Manticore + Vendetta.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why would you give mutilators a landraider? If you are playing a gunline army, you would want them near your shooters to protect them from charges. That is the function of a counter attack unit, isn't it?

Well basic strategy for assaulting a gunline would be to avoid any counter assault units the gunline might have. Mutilators on foot are slow. A Land Raider isn't as slow, and lets you assault out of. There aren't many reliable ways to get a turn 2 assault in the CSM codex without the Land Raider tax.

That's just how I would try and get the most out of them. Doesn't change the fact that they're bad.

Well, if I went with NM, I might go with Daemonettes for my CC Counter Charge units. They hurt bigtime with that many attacks that can rend. Bloody quick too.

If the shooty element takes the brunt of the fire from my opponent, the Daemonettes might be able to survive and act as good bumps in the road.

Big squads of CSM too could work, especially Fabulous Bile's guys as not all Emperor's Children are in fact Noise Marines.

You might have to break up the pure iron warriors theme for an effective gunline chaos army. Allied tzeentch daemons for prescience would do wonders for keeping ectoplasma forgefiends from nuking themselves and actually hitting their targets. And soul grinders are better cheaper defilers.

Though you could just model them counts-as I suppose. Make the herald of tzeentch a power conduit, like a floating glowy generator that's providing power to nearby mechanical units. And the mandatory pink horrors could be mini-generators throwing off sparks.