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Do you get a Deny the Witch for the following?

Cleansing Flame? The codex doesn't make reference to the power having a "target". The FAQ says it's a close combat attack. So it's like Force Weapons, but obviously not.

Heroic Sacrifice? The power again doesn't "target" but brings the model back to life for an attack with extra properties.

Here is a bonus question. Dark Excommunication does say "target" so clearly a DTW happens. But what does it do to a daemon in their books new form?

Any help here would be fantastic! Thank you.

1. Not sure.
2. No. The power effectively targets the psyker.
3. They lose the benefit of all Daemonic Gifts (except mounts), just like DE says.

Let me help on number 1.

Simple answer: No

The power targets the unit casting in in a similar way that hammer hand does. If you want ton think of it similarly to a force weapon then that's fine. Then power does not target an enemy unit.

Cleansing Flame, in particular, is difficult for opponents to accept because it does have the potential to cause wounds. However, the Psychic test itself does not directly cause wounds, so to speak: additional dice rolls must be made, and these dice rolls are not psychic checks.

Things that can be denied target the enemy directly; CF, when passed, allows the GK player to roll some more dice.
Hmmm...though that does sound just like a PSA, which, when passed, allows the player to roll more "Hit" dice and then "Wound" dice....

But I would agree with Sothas, CF does not target the enemy unit. It allows a die to be rolled for each enemy model in the combat.

If CF doesn't target the unit how are the wounds applied to the unit? If multiple squads are engaged are all squads affected? I'm a bit rusty on CF, been a while since I've seen it.

 Sothas wrote:
Let me help on number 1.

Simple answer: No

The power targets the unit casting in in a similar way that hammer hand does. If you want ton think of it similarly to a force weapon then that's fine. Then power does not target an enemy unit.

That doesn't even make sense. Hammerhand effects the unit using the power. Cleansing Flames effect models in close combat with the casting unit. Hammerhand is not an appropriate comparison.

My reading of Cleansing Flame appears to be akin to a Witchfire power, albeit one that is a cc attack and not a shooting attack. As such I would say yes, it can be denied.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
However, the Psychic test itself does not directly cause wounds, so to speak: additional dice rolls must be made, and these dice rolls are not psychic checks.

That hardly distinguishes it from much of anything. Basic Witchfire will involve plenty of rolls that are not psychic checks.

Well, Deny the Witch requires the unit to be targeted for it to be eligible for a roll, which seems to be the reason why a unit in the path of a psychic beam attack, but was not the unit targeted by the psyker, does not get a DtW roll.

Since Cleansing Flames does not target, no enemy unit should get a DtW roll.

The targeting rule seem extremely silly to my group of players, we just allow DtW vs any hostile psychic power that would affect them.

Rumbleguts wrote:
Well, Deny the Witch requires the unit to be targeted for it to be eligible for a roll, which seems to be the reason why a unit in the path of a psychic beam attack, but was not the unit targeted by the psyker, does not get a DtW roll.

That's because you don't get 2 chances to DtW. The target can deny it, and if it does, no one under the path is affected.

Pyrian wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
However, the Psychic test itself does not directly cause wounds, so to speak: additional dice rolls must be made, and these dice rolls are not psychic checks.

That hardly distinguishes it from much of anything. Basic Witchfire will involve plenty of rolls that are not psychic checks.

And IN THE NEXT SENTENCE I said:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Hmmm...though that does sound just like a PSA, which, when passed, allows the player to roll more "Hit" dice and then "Wound" dice....

When you quote me, at least leave in all the relevant bits.

Aren't all CC attacks, by default, targeting the enemy unit? All attacks you make should be "targeted" while in CC.

 Purifier wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
Well, Deny the Witch requires the unit to be targeted for it to be eligible for a roll, which seems to be the reason why a unit in the path of a psychic beam attack, but was not the unit targeted by the psyker, does not get a DtW roll.

That's because you don't get 2 chances to DtW. The target can deny it, and if it does, no one under the path is affected.

The rules state that any enemy unit targeted by a psychic power may make a DtW roll. If a power targets multiple units each gets to make a DtW roll. I have seen more then one argument that units which were not the target of a psychic power using a blast marker but are touched by the marker do not get a DtW roll. A psyker using a beam attack must target the same unit that the rest of his unit (assuming he has one) targeted, and the first model hit must be from that unit. So the logic of other units not getting a DtW roll against beam attacks seems to be because those units are not targeted.

I cannot find any rule that says that if the first unit that is hit by a beam attack makes the DtW roll then no models from any other unit can be hit. There is the FAQ which talks about Jaws of the Wolf and beam attacks but that does not say that if the first unit makes the DtW roll that all the other units are also unaffected. It says "A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every enemy unit is affected as normal." I can see where someone might assume that if the test is passed then no units are affected, but that is not what that says. Based on the targeting and DtW rules it would make sense for GW to have answered this way, since no other unit is targeted no other unit can make a DtW role. In addition, the rules for DtW, in boldface page 68, say "the psychic power's effect on that unit is nullified-". It does not say the power is nullified, only the effect on the unit. So, one unit making a DtW roll against an instance of a power has no relation I can find on that power effecting other units.

I will admit I have not read most of the FAQ for the other codices so if there is a ruling somewhere in there that goes counter to my argument I would certainly appreciate being pointed towards it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roci wrote:
Aren't all CC attacks, by default, targeting the enemy unit? All attacks you make should be "targeted" while in CC.

But it doesn't say "target" so the ability isn't targeted. Kind of like some Magic the Gathering cards in relation to shroud and hexproof, they didn't put target into the rules or any FAQ so it isn't targeted. And unless I am mistaken in my reading of the rule on that power it would actually effect multiple enemy units, since it does not target and says "all enemy models that are part of the same assault". So if the GK did a disordered charge, or were charged by multiple units, owy.

Rumbleguts wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
Well, Deny the Witch requires the unit to be targeted for it to be eligible for a roll, which seems to be the reason why a unit in the path of a psychic beam attack, but was not the unit targeted by the psyker, does not get a DtW roll.

That's because you don't get 2 chances to DtW. The target can deny it, and if it does, no one under the path is affected.

The rules state that any enemy unit targeted by a psychic power may make a DtW roll. If a power targets multiple units each gets to make a DtW roll. I have seen more then one argument that units which were not the target of a psychic power using a blast marker but are touched by the marker do not get a DtW roll. A psyker using a beam attack must target the same unit that the rest of his unit (assuming he has one) targeted, and the first model hit must be from that unit. So the logic of other units not getting a DtW roll against beam attacks seems to be because those units are not targeted.

I cannot find any rule that says that if the first unit that is hit by a beam attack makes the DtW roll then no models from any other unit can be hit. There is the FAQ which talks about Jaws of the Wolf and beam attacks but that does not say that if the first unit makes the DtW roll that all the other units are also unaffected. It says "A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every enemy unit is affected as normal." I can see where someone might assume that if the test is passed then no units are affected, but that is not what that says. Based on the targeting and DtW rules it would make sense for GW to have answered this way, since no other unit is targeted no other unit can make a DtW role. In addition, the rules for DtW, in boldface page 68, say "the psychic power's effect on that unit is nullified-". It does not say the power is nullified, only the effect on the unit. So, one unit making a DtW roll against an instance of a power has no relation I can find on that power effecting other units.

I will admit I have not read most of the FAQ for the other codices so if there is a ruling somewhere in there that goes counter to my argument I would certainly appreciate being pointed towards it.

'

Well, that's in stark contrast with what it says on page 67.
"If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power. If the power is nullified, the attempt fails and nothing further happens."

It's giving explicit permision only to the targeted unit, and states that if that one manages to deny it, it straight up fails, which is the same that happens if you roll poorly and fail to manifest the power in the first place.
The paragraph you cited seems to be taking into account if the power is explicitly TARGETING more than one unit, as it goes on to say "if a psychic power targets two or more units..."

If it is a witchfire of the type you see with a flamer template, you only TARGET one unit. The others are just hit on the way.

 Goat wrote:


Here is a bonus question. Dark Excommunication does say "target" so clearly a DTW happens. But what does it do to a daemon in their books new form?

Note that everything in their codex that is in the "daemonic gifts" part of their book ceases to work. Thats like 9 pages of wargear and does include e.g. the grimoire of true names or several melee weapons.

 Purifier wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
Well, Deny the Witch requires the unit to be targeted for it to be eligible for a roll, which seems to be the reason why a unit in the path of a psychic beam attack, but was not the unit targeted by the psyker, does not get a DtW roll.

That's because you don't get 2 chances to DtW. The target can deny it, and if it does, no one under the path is affected.

The rules state that any enemy unit targeted by a psychic power may make a DtW roll. If a power targets multiple units each gets to make a DtW roll. I have seen more then one argument that units which were not the target of a psychic power using a blast marker but are touched by the marker do not get a DtW roll. A psyker using a beam attack must target the same unit that the rest of his unit (assuming he has one) targeted, and the first model hit must be from that unit. So the logic of other units not getting a DtW roll against beam attacks seems to be because those units are not targeted.

I cannot find any rule that says that if the first unit that is hit by a beam attack makes the DtW roll then no models from any other unit can be hit. There is the FAQ which talks about Jaws of the Wolf and beam attacks but that does not say that if the first unit makes the DtW roll that all the other units are also unaffected. It says "A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every enemy unit is affected as normal." I can see where someone might assume that if the test is passed then no units are affected, but that is not what that says. Based on the targeting and DtW rules it would make sense for GW to have answered this way, since no other unit is targeted no other unit can make a DtW role. In addition, the rules for DtW, in boldface page 68, say "the psychic power's effect on that unit is nullified-". It does not say the power is nullified, only the effect on the unit. So, one unit making a DtW roll against an instance of a power has no relation I can find on that power effecting other units.

I will admit I have not read most of the FAQ for the other codices so if there is a ruling somewhere in there that goes counter to my argument I would certainly appreciate being pointed towards it.

'

Well, that's in stark contrast with what it says on page 67.
"If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power. If the power is nullified, the attempt fails and nothing further happens."

It's giving explicit permision only to the targeted unit, and states that if that one manages to deny it, it straight up fails, which is the same that happens if you roll poorly and fail to manifest the power in the first place.
The paragraph you cited seems to be taking into account if the power is explicitly TARGETING more than one unit, as it goes on to say "if a psychic power targets two or more units..."

If it is a witchfire of the type you see with a flamer template, you only TARGET one unit. The others are just hit on the way.

Yes, the list on page 67 is a simple reminder of the order of how things happen. Page 68 gives the full rules for Deny the Witch. Read the first paragraph on page 68. Last line say "sometimes nullify a psychic power's effect". Then go down two paragraphs to the bold faced paragraph. Says the exact same thing. Nothing in between gives any indication those statements only apply for powers that target multiple units. Its only when you get to the second column that they start referring to powers that target multiple units. Which explicitly says the effects are only nullified against units which successfully make a DtW roll. If a DtW roll cancelled the manifestation of a power, then it would make sense that only one unit would get a chance to DtW, otherwise maelstroms and novas would be nearly useless. If they had used the word "resisted" instead of "nullified" this wouldn't be an issue. But way back in 2nd ed (at least, I never played Rogue Trader) one of the Warp Cards was Nullify, which did nullify a power as it was manifested. And GW likes to hang onto its traditions and terminology.

Its how they keep using the word targeted in combination with Deny the Witch that lead to the conclusion that units not targeted by a power receive no chance to Deny the Witch. Which (excuse the really lame pun) my group finds utterly silly.

So that mighty Librarian focused all his might to hurl a vortex of doom upon that encroaching tervigon, but the power slipped from his control and instead smashed into a hive tyrant and his cohort of guards many meters away. Ah well, thinks the Librarian, the Emperor gives and the Emperor takes, at least the scummy leader of the swarm won't get a chance to resist the blast, unlike that tervigon, its all for the best really.

Yes, the template simply hits the other units along the way. And why don't they get a chance to resists its effects? They were not targeted. Why should a unit not targeted not get a chance to resist a power? Because the rules say so and not other reason.

I'm pretty sure that you only get 1 DtW regardless of how many units you hit. I think they FAQ'd it, didn't they?

Think about Cleasing Flame in this manner - it's not targeting anyone BUT yourself. When it is cast, it essentially acts as a Blessing that gives you a similar-to-base-contact damage spell. I believe Fire Shield (or something like that) in Pyromancy does the same thing. It's a Blessing, so they can't DtW, and they take the hits.

I've always played it as they do get a deny the witch because it makes more sense that way given the way that DTW generally works in 6th. I would classify cleansing flame as a malediction, because the power itself does damage to enemy units, it does not boost the casting unit's stats or enhance them in any way. Instead, you cast it and the enemy unit take a hit on a 4+. Granted the wording is unclear, but the precedent seems to be that if a power does direct damage to an enemy unit you get a DTW roll, so I would allow my opponent one.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm pretty sure that you only get 1 DtW regardless of how many units you hit. I think they FAQ'd it, didn't they?

Think about Cleasing Flame in this manner - it's not targeting anyone BUT yourself. When it is cast, it essentially acts as a Blessing that gives you a similar-to-base-contact damage spell. I believe Fire Shield (or something like that) in Pyromancy does the same thing. It's a Blessing, so they can't DtW, and they take the hits.

If you can find a FAQ ruling saying that if a power that targets multiple units, only one unit may make a DtW roll, please let me know. Its not in the general rules section, where it should be. And would directly contradict the rules in the book, not just explain a vague rule. As far as I can find if the power does not target the unit, the unit gets no DtW roll, ever.

You can choose to think of cleansing flame in that manner, but I don't feel that is accurate since it does not affect the GK unit at all, which all blessings do. Even Fire Shield has a direct benefit to the unit it affects. And, cleansing flame doesn't say it effects the GK unit at all, it effects all units in assault with the GK unit, the GK unit is just the point from which the ability radiates, like a very limited nova, except it doesn't target and a nova does.

Actually, I can find one power that is probably a blessing that only effects enemy units, Sanctuary, from the GK codex. But it could also be considered to be a weird malediction. I admit with access to only 4 codices could be quite a few others I am missing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
I've always played it as they do get a deny the witch because it makes more sense that way given the way that DTW generally works in 6th. I would classify cleansing flame as a malediction, because the power itself does damage to enemy units, it does not boost the casting unit's stats or enhance them in any way. Instead, you cast it and the enemy unit take a hit on a 4+. Granted the wording is unclear, but the precedent seems to be that if a power does direct damage to an enemy unit you get a DTW roll, so I would allow my opponent one.

My group thinks the rules for DtW in regard to targeting is silly, so we allow a DtW roll for any unit effected by a power. The FAQ for GK states that cleansing flame is a close combat attack.

Rumbleguts wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm pretty sure that you only get 1 DtW regardless of how many units you hit. I think they FAQ'd it, didn't they?

Think about Cleasing Flame in this manner - it's not targeting anyone BUT yourself. When it is cast, it essentially acts as a Blessing that gives you a similar-to-base-contact damage spell. I believe Fire Shield (or something like that) in Pyromancy does the same thing. It's a Blessing, so they can't DtW, and they take the hits.

If you can find a FAQ ruling saying that if a power that targets multiple units, only one unit may make a DtW roll, please let me know. Its not in the general rules section, where it should be. And would directly contradict the rules in the book, not just explain a vague rule. As far as I can find if the power does not target the unit, the unit gets no DtW roll, ever.

You can choose to think of cleansing flame in that manner, but I don't feel that is accurate since it does not affect the GK unit at all, which all blessings do. Even Fire Shield has a direct benefit to the unit it affects. And, cleansing flame doesn't say it effects the GK unit at all, it effects all units in assault with the GK unit, the GK unit is just the point from which the ability radiates, like a very limited nova, except it doesn't target and a nova does.

Actually, I can find one power that is probably a blessing that only effects enemy units, Sanctuary, from the GK codex. But it could also be considered to be a weird malediction. I admit with access to only 4 codices could be quite a few others I am missing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
I've always played it as they do get a deny the witch because it makes more sense that way given the way that DTW generally works in 6th. I would classify cleansing flame as a malediction, because the power itself does damage to enemy units, it does not boost the casting unit's stats or enhance them in any way. Instead, you cast it and the enemy unit take a hit on a 4+. Granted the wording is unclear, but the precedent seems to be that if a power does direct damage to an enemy unit you get a DTW roll, so I would allow my opponent one.

My group thinks the rules for DtW in regard to targeting is silly, so we allow a DtW roll for any unit effected by a power. The FAQ for GK states that cleansing flame is a close combat attack.

I found it. GW BRB FAQ Page 7, but it applies to Beam Powers in this reference. Only one DtW roll is made regardless of the number of units hit, if it fails, the power affects all of them. That being said, this doesn't call into mention "targeting", though if you need a "target" then Novas don't permit DtWs either. I looked at the Cleansing Flame entry again, to be fair, it doesn't state whether it even expends a warp charge or not, which call into question its validity as even a psychic power.

Rumbleguts wrote:
LOTS of text

I don't understand the problem. You're always allowed a DtW and if you manage it, NO ONE IS AFFECTED BY THE SPELL.
It's not like the off-targets somehow get no protection. Is just a case of "all or none."

You argue like you are under the impression that it's better to hit off targets than the actual target?

1) Attempt to manifest
IF unsuccessful END
ELSEIF successful GOTO 2
2) Declare target
3) Target attempts DtW
IF successful END
ELSEIF unsuccessful GOTO 4
4) use your witchfire like a shooting attack. This is when it gets to scatter or whatever.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I looked at the Cleansing Flame entry again, to be fair, it doesn't state whether it even expends a warp charge or not, which call into question its validity as even a psychic power.

Yeah, a codex written in 5th edition would totally mention Warp Charges.
It's a psychic power because its listed as one in the codex.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I looked at the Cleansing Flame entry again, to be fair, it doesn't state whether it even expends a warp charge or not, which call into question its validity as even a psychic power.

Yeah, a codex written in 5th edition would totally mention Warp Charges.
It's a psychic power because its listed as one in the codex.

Fair point. I don't play Purifiers and it slipped my mind that it was under the Psychic Powers entry. In any case, Deny the Witch states:

If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the Psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved.

RAW, Cleasing Flame is not "targeted".

 Enigwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I looked at the Cleansing Flame entry again, to be fair, it doesn't state whether it even expends a warp charge or not, which call into question its validity as even a psychic power.

Yeah, a codex written in 5th edition would totally mention Warp Charges.
It's a psychic power because its listed as one in the codex.

Fair point. I don't play Purifiers and it slipped my mind that it was under the Psychic Powers entry. In any case, Deny the Witch states:

If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the Psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved.

RAW, Cleasing Flame is not "targeted".

This. You cannot DtW because its missing the prerequisite of targeting a unit.

If the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of 4+. Armour saves can be taken as normal.

it could really be argued either way. it's "targeting" a specific unit or units. You just don't get to choose what you target.

On the other hand it doesn't specifically state that it is targeting.

I can't really see it being conclusive either way.

Well you actually gave the conclusive argument - "target" is a defined 40k term. Given this power does not target anything, it cannot be subject to DTW