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Meta here seems to be pretty Flier heavy with a good mix of Nurgle based Daemons, Wraith + Destroyer lord Necron lists.

Tau 1850 Farsight Bomb C&C Appreciated:

HQ:

Commander Farsight - 165

XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team (x7) - 464
Bodyguard 1:
- Plasma Rifle
- Burst Cannon
- Target Lock

Bodyguard 2:
- Plasma Rifle
- Burst Cannon
- Target Lock

Bodyguard 3:
- Plasma Rifle
- Burst Cannon
- Target Lock

Bodyguard 4:
- Plasma Rifle
- Burst Cannon

Bodyguard 5:
- Plasma Rifle
- Burst Cannon

Bodyguard 6:
- Plasma Rifle
- Burst Cannon

Bodyguard 7:
- Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite
- Command and Control Node
- Puretide Engram Neurochip
- XV8-02 Iridium Battlesuit.

Troops:
Fire Warrior Team (x9) - 100
- Fire Warrior Shas'ui

Fire Warrior Team (x9) - 100
- Fire Warrior Shas'ui

Fire Warrior Team (x9) - 100
- Fire Warrior Shas'ui

Fire Warrior Team (x9) - 100
- Fire Warrior Shas'ui

Elites:
XV104 Riptide - 210
- Early Warning Override
- Velocity Tracker
- Ion Accelerator
- Twin-linked Smart Missile System

Fast Attack:
Pathfinder Team (x9) - 120
-Pathfinder Shas'ui

Pathfinder Team (x9) - 120
-Pathfinder Shas'ui

Heavy Support:
Hammerhead Gunship - 201
- Longstrike
- Automated repair system
- Sensor spines
- Submunitions
- Twin-Linked smart missile system
- 2x Seeker Missile

XV88 Broadside Team (x1)- 85
- Velocity Tracker

XV88 Broadside Team (x1)- 85
- Velocity Tracker

if you want to build a decent Farsight Bomb list you absolutely need Shadowsun, and gun drones on that unit. I also value a lot an allied Librarian with Gate of Infinity, 24" movement each turn is a beast. I haven't lost a single game with Farsight Enclave so far (over 20 games played vs top lists), this is the list i use for 1750:

Commander Farsight
Commander Shadowsun

Crisis bodyguard team
Crisis bodyguard, C&C node, MSSS, puretide neurochip, retro-thrusters, drone controller
Crisis bodyguard, 2 fusion blasters, target lock, neuroweb system jammer
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 missile pods, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 missile pods, target lock
12 gun drones

6 fire warriors
6 fire warriors

skyray, blacksun filter
skyray, blacksun filter
broadsides team
broadside shas'vre, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
broadside, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
broadside, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
6 missile drones


Librarian

5 scouts

1750

To up it to 1850 i would add an ADL with Comms Relay (to keep your troops out as long as possible) and Dpods to the skyrays.

I see Teschio that now you do use librarian, due to new eldar codex?

Yeah Teschio's list is pretty much perfect. As for yours:

Bomb is totally miss built. Burst cannons do the same job as gun drones without adding ablative wounds to your unit. Plasma ignores armour so goes well but the BC does not and both guns have different targets but are on the same model. Everyone needs a TL. Also you need some fusion to kill AV14.

Shadowsun makes a Massive difference to how effective the unit is. A 2+ cover save makes the unit high unkillable and ablative gun drones ensures it does maximum damage every turn.

You don't need that many troops. A proper bomb tables your opponent nearly every game.

Riptide isn't needed as the bomb does the same job but without needing ML support. Also your Riptide has a VT for no discernable reason. With the VT it puts on average 1.5 S7 hits and 3 S5 hits on a flyer even an AV11 flyer won't bother evading that. So even with the VT it is not good AA so don't take a VT on it!

Pathfinders shouldn't be needed with the bomb as you're twin linked and ignoring cover anyway.

Long strike in a Hammerhead that gains almost no benefit from his rules is very odd to say the least. Also it doesn't support the bomb as well as a Skyray which supplies skyfiring MLs and ranged anti transport fire. You don't want your bomb spending the first turn killing 35pt Rhinos.

Railsides are poor. Missilesides are the best thing in the codex (after the bomb) give the EWO and a full compliment of missile drones and they destroy transports and medium armour and just about anything short of a Land raider. In squads of 3 you delete a unit a turn with them. Also you have 12 twin linked S7 shots at any flyer that comes on the board and the same again at S5 if the flyer is AV10-11. Causing about 4 S7 hits and 4 S5 hits on a flyer will cause it to evade and you've not even had to pay for expensive VTs.

 SwistakCZC wrote:
I see Teschio that now you do use librarian, due to new eldar codex?

Yes, old Runes of Protections were incredible, while the new ones are useless. I still think the list with old Eldar allies was better, this one is more vulnerable but more aggressive, but since even with Eldar allies i didn't have any problems wiping out the enemies, i preferred to be a little safer. With SM it's a little bit riskier and some match-ups are harder, but it's still a beast.

Love the look of that Farsight bomb. How would you reccomend expanding that up to 2k and what powers would you take on the lib.

Cheers

Yal

Teschio wrote:
if you want to build a decent Farsight Bomb list you absolutely need Shadowsun, and gun drones on that unit. I also value a lot an allied Librarian with Gate of Infinity, 24" movement each turn is a beast. I haven't lost a single game with Farsight Enclave so far (over 20 games played vs top lists), this is the list i use for 1750:

Commander Farsight
Commander Shadowsun

Crisis bodyguard team
Crisis bodyguard, C&C node, MSSS, puretide neurochip, retro-thrusters, drone controller
Crisis bodyguard, 2 fusion blasters, target lock, neuroweb system jammer
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 missile pods, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 missile pods, target lock
12 gun drones

6 fire warriors
6 fire warriors

skyray, blacksun filter
skyray, blacksun filter
broadsides team
broadside shas'vre, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
broadside, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
broadside, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
6 missile drones


Librarian

5 scouts

1750

To up it to 1850 i would add an ADL with Comms Relay (to keep your troops out as long as possible) and Dpods to the skyrays.

Even though farsight is most likely the warlord in this list, that death star has a massive footprint. You might be limited in where you can place all of that. Personally for me, i wouldn't feel comfortable dropping 943pts on a single unit.

You also only have three troop choices that are low in numbers. What happens if you lose all your troops on capture point games? Or do you just hide them really well?

I guess the only thing i don't like about the list is that you have a lot of big units, but no real meat. If your death star gets derailed you're pretty much toast. There's also no real way to pop AV14/13 units reliably besides your death star with this list. The easiest counter to this i can think of is just splitting up my forces to each side of the deployment, and possibly just rushing a small, but powerful unit to your FWs.

That would slow down your deathstar considerably, and with the right army, i can just fire at them from afar. The big footprint means pie plates will have a field day, and increase my chances of making your roll LD. (even though you'll be doing it on 10s.) You'll also have problems against armies that are mob based or have multiple tough units. There's no way your skyray and broadsides will be able to stem that tide, and your deathstar will be hard pressed to be everywhere at once, even with a portal. (it's randomized IIRC).

The Farsight bomb can do a really great job of contesting objectives, especially with Gate of Infinity. It's one of the few armies that does really well with minimal troops. Though, I would probably try to fit in 1 more small squad of Kroot.

Gate of Infinity makes the bomb SO much better. It gives you the option to start on the board and also allows you to reposition easily. I would also say that Shadowsun is an auto-include. 2+ cover on Drones is a beautiful thing. Just make sure to knock out all cover ignoring sources early on.

I'm not a huge fan of 1000 pt deathstars, but the Farsight bomb breaks a lot of rules. It's shooting is similar to CC, in the sense that it will just about always ignore armor and allow no cover saves. It also punishes mech opponents and those that bring MCs.

Instead of the Libby + 5 Scouts, you could take a Farseer + 5 Rangers. Because Eldar and Tau are battle brothers, the synergy would be higher.

Space marines are also battle brothers with the tau,

I have also been using a Libby with my bomb witch is pretty much I identical to the one above but the librarian also takes null zone and terminator armour and I run a few more fusions over plasma. the list has been great.
New eldar can work to, but its not as good as the old eldar used to be, though getting fortune on your bomb is nice.(if you can roll it)

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Even though farsight is most likely the warlord in this list, that death star has a massive footprint. You might be limited in where you can place all of that. Personally for me, i wouldn't feel comfortable dropping 943pts on a single unit.

You also only have three troop choices that are low in numbers. What happens if you lose all your troops on capture point games? Or do you just hide them really well?

I guess the only thing i don't like about the list is that you have a lot of big units, but no real meat. If your death star gets derailed you're pretty much toast. There's also no real way to pop AV14/13 units reliably besides your death star with this list. The easiest counter to this i can think of is just splitting up my forces to each side of the deployment, and possibly just rushing a small, but powerful unit to your FWs.

That would slow down your deathstar considerably, and with the right army, i can just fire at them from afar. The big footprint means pie plates will have a field day, and increase my chances of making your roll LD. (even though you'll be doing it on 10s.) You'll also have problems against armies that are mob based or have multiple tough units. There's no way your skyray and broadsides will be able to stem that tide, and your deathstar will be hard pressed to be everywhere at once, even with a portal. (it's randomized IIRC).

Moving 24" each turn with Gate of Infinity (which your Librarian will ALWAYS pick, and thanks to Farsight's Warlord Trait you won't even scatter!), i have a lot of options regarding where i can deploy that unit and still be effective. And that unit is not 943 points, it's 1043, the Librarian is there too But it's 1043 points that the vast majority of armies have absolutely NO way to kill, and that in return do a crapload of damage.

The enemy won't kill my troops, because they start in Reserve (all 3 of them) and when they enter play, they hide. And to get to them you first have to get near the Broadsides.... this list does not win with objective grabbing, it wins by wipe-out (currently 16 wipe-outs in 20 games), and therefore it doesn't need troops. It is one of the very few lists that can do well without scoring units.

Good luck "derailing" my bodyguards, they have a huge damage capacity AND they move 24" each turn (plus 2D6" JSS movement...). Splitting forces won't give me any problem, with this extreme mobility. As for pieplates, there are 2 things to consider: 1) i will have 2+ cover most of the times, and 2) after my first turn, i doubt you will still have things that can really hurt my unit, since they will be the first things i take out (if this list needs to eliminate 2 or 3 units in a single turn, you can rest assured they WILL die). As for AV13/14, i think 4 twin-linked Fusion Blasters with Tank Hunter are an excellent way to kill them... really, no vehicle can survive that, expecially since my mobility allows me to be within 9" of a tank i i need to pop it. I can reliably kill two Land Raiders a turn, what else do you want?

wuestenfux wrote:Instead of the Libby + 5 Scouts, you could take a Farseer + 5 Rangers. Because Eldar and Tau are battle brothers, the synergy would be higher.

SMs are Battle Brothers as well. Otherwise, it will make no sense to have them as allies, as the only reason they are in this list is Gate of Infinity. Eldar allies were a good choise with the OLD codex, thanks to Runes of Protection, but now there is absolutely no reason to get them instead of SMs.

Kendowned wrote:Space marines are also battle brothers with the tau,

I have also been using a Libby with my bomb witch is pretty much I identical to the one above but the librarian also takes null zone and terminator armour and I run a few more fusions over plasma. the list has been great.
New eldar can work to, but its not as good as the old eldar used to be, though getting fortune on your bomb is nice.(if you can roll it)

My Librarian has Null Zone too. It will seldom use it, though, since Gate is awesome, but if for some reason i don't need to move a lot, it will cast Null Zone. I don't like Terminator Armor on him, though, it's a lot of points that don't add anything (any character in that unit is IMMORTAL if there is a single Crisis alive, because of Sworn Protector), and instead is a disadvantage (no sweeping advances). Also, fusions are nice, but i think with the current setting i have more than enough anti-tank (missiles with Tank Hunter are excellent too, at least vs AV12 or less vehicles). I prefer having more AP2 shots. If your meta is extremely heavy-tanks intensive, maybe swap one plasma for one fusion, but any more than that is overkill.

I also should mention take the epistolary upgrade so I can use both a nasty combo the terminator armor is to give the option of deep striking from reserve, I know with gate this will rarely be used but with some matchups it could be usefull.

I take more fusion mainly due to it being more vercitile while you loose shots over plasma, str 8 is a sweet spot for instant killing a lot of things and it allows you to kill many tanks as you drop though I wouldn't take fusion just for that reason.

Teschio wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Even though farsight is most likely the warlord in this list, that death star has a massive footprint. You might be limited in where you can place all of that. Personally for me, i wouldn't feel comfortable dropping 943pts on a single unit.

You also only have three troop choices that are low in numbers. What happens if you lose all your troops on capture point games? Or do you just hide them really well?

I guess the only thing i don't like about the list is that you have a lot of big units, but no real meat. If your death star gets derailed you're pretty much toast. There's also no real way to pop AV14/13 units reliably besides your death star with this list. The easiest counter to this i can think of is just splitting up my forces to each side of the deployment, and possibly just rushing a small, but powerful unit to your FWs.

That would slow down your deathstar considerably, and with the right army, i can just fire at them from afar. The big footprint means pie plates will have a field day, and increase my chances of making your roll LD. (even though you'll be doing it on 10s.) You'll also have problems against armies that are mob based or have multiple tough units. There's no way your skyray and broadsides will be able to stem that tide, and your deathstar will be hard pressed to be everywhere at once, even with a portal. (it's randomized IIRC).

Moving 24" each turn with Gate of Infinity (which your Librarian will ALWAYS pick, and thanks to Farsight's Warlord Trait you won't even scatter!), i have a lot of options regarding where i can deploy that unit and still be effective. And that unit is not 943 points, it's 1043, the Librarian is there too But it's 1043 points that the vast majority of armies have absolutely NO way to kill, and that in return do a crapload of damage.

The enemy won't kill my troops, because they start in Reserve (all 3 of them) and when they enter play, they hide. And to get to them you first have to get near the Broadsides.... this list does not win with objective grabbing, it wins by wipe-out (currently 16 wipe-outs in 20 games), and therefore it doesn't need troops. It is one of the very few lists that can do well without scoring units.

Good luck "derailing" my bodyguards, they have a huge damage capacity AND they move 24" each turn (plus 2D6" JSS movement...). Splitting forces won't give me any problem, with this extreme mobility. As for pieplates, there are 2 things to consider: 1) i will have 2+ cover most of the times, and 2) after my first turn, i doubt you will still have things that can really hurt my unit, since they will be the first things i take out (if this list needs to eliminate 2 or 3 units in a single turn, you can rest assured they WILL die). As for AV13/14, i think 4 twin-linked Fusion Blasters with Tank Hunter are an excellent way to kill them... really, no vehicle can survive that, expecially since my mobility allows me to be within 9" of a tank i i need to pop it. I can reliably kill two Land Raiders a turn, what else do you want?

wuestenfux wrote:Instead of the Libby + 5 Scouts, you could take a Farseer + 5 Rangers. Because Eldar and Tau are battle brothers, the synergy would be higher.

SMs are Battle Brothers as well. Otherwise, it will make no sense to have them as allies, as the only reason they are in this list is Gate of Infinity. Eldar allies were a good choise with the OLD codex, thanks to Runes of Protection, but now there is absolutely no reason to get them instead of SMs.

Kendowned wrote:Space marines are also battle brothers with the tau,

I have also been using a Libby with my bomb witch is pretty much I identical to the one above but the librarian also takes null zone and terminator armour and I run a few more fusions over plasma. the list has been great.
New eldar can work to, but its not as good as the old eldar used to be, though getting fortune on your bomb is nice.(if you can roll it)

My Librarian has Null Zone too. It will seldom use it, though, since Gate is awesome, but if for some reason i don't need to move a lot, it will cast Null Zone. I don't like Terminator Armor on him, though, it's a lot of points that don't add anything (any character in that unit is IMMORTAL if there is a single Crisis alive, because of Sworn Protector), and instead is a disadvantage (no sweeping advances). Also, fusions are nice, but i think with the current setting i have more than enough anti-tank (missiles with Tank Hunter are excellent too, at least vs AV12 or less vehicles). I prefer having more AP2 shots. If your meta is extremely heavy-tanks intensive, maybe swap one plasma for one fusion, but any more than that is overkill.

They must have changed it then because i recall it allowed you to pick an area of the board and move to it to there (quadrants or something like that).According to the psyker section of the BRB, you can not manifest any kind of psychic ability after you come in from reserves. So turn 2, he can't do anything if i'm reading that right.

So all you have on the board are three broadsides and two skyrays? That's risky. So, unless you plan on hiding them and not shooting at all during the first phase, they'll be shot at by pretty much everything the other guy has and most likely suffer wounds. On top of that, the target priority of the other player is now much easier to decide with that set up. You risk losing your only decent anti-air option.

Assuming your opponent shoots at you for two turns, you have a few problems:

1) What if your reserves fail on your death start. Your still down 1000+ points for another turn.

2) Let's assume they make it, and the opponent split his forces up to two different sides of the map. You're still forgetting about everything else that's going on. He most likely has units going across the battle field as we speak. Since you have little to no AV14 damage, he'll probably hustle his METAL BOXES across the field if he's got some. Your broadsides and skyrays can probably put a few dents in them maybe, but they'll be taking hits as well from turn one onward too. No shield drones on the sides so no invulns on ID. I would have two fire bases on either side of my deployment and concentrate my transports in the center. Now you have a giant triangle to deal with, and if im reading the pysker page right, no GoI on the first DS as your guy has no manifested abilities (still might be reading that wrong).

3) So lets say you DS in. You'll have to get close to be somewhat effective, especially with the melta, and since the enemy is pretty much spread out already, 2d6 isn't going to be reliable for all your units.(does the librarian have a jetpack?) With such a big footprint you're going to be trailing a bit, so not everyone is going to have sweet +2 cover, and again, no shield drones, so no ID saves.If you get your cover saved removed and get hit with a template that's strong enough. (Riptide with charged IA and a commander with MSS + BS5 markerlights dronesin his squad?) (Flamers?)

4) Randomness. I hate randomness. You're relying on maybe getting a reserve in. Your lib maybe not blowing his brains out. If you get doubles on the 24'' move you lose a unit. (probably your drone) Your opponent just sitting there while he waits for turn two. You can 2d6 and 24' but that's not going to get you away from any serious template weapon. If my forces are split, you'll be getting hit with one more likely than not, and still have to travel to get to them.

5) Sniping ICs. (meh, possible, not reliable).

I would argue that you've won so many games with this set up because the players you played against didn't understand how to counter it properly, and probably didn't bring the right equipment with them. I'd make it as hard as possible to DS and move around by placing terrain properly, and leave a good LOS for both fire bases and the moving transports in the center. I just don't see this working out too well against a proper set up. It's certainly not the bad ass impossible counter you've made it out to be.

Edit: Actually, according to the BRB pg 122, if at the end of any turn you don't have any units on the field, i win. So if i'm going first, and i manage to kill your two skyrays, and 3 broadsides its game over. So i guess your plan is to just hide everything and not shoot anything first turn?

He starts the Bomb on the board. GoI moves you round the board using the deep strike rules. Teschio seems to think this means Farsight makes you not scatter which is not the case.

 FlingitNow wrote:
He starts the Bomb on the board. GoI moves you round the board using the deep strike rules. Teschio seems to think this means Farsight makes you not scatter which is not the case.

\

Oh i see, i just assumed he was DS them because of the topic. Unless the lib has a jetpack he's going to be 2d6 in a weird kind of line of units to keep coherency. Farsight's trait says that he and his unit never fail scatter on DS. The rules for GoL state that you move 24 inches using the deep strike rules. I assume it confers.

Best part about that, if i'm reading the GoL right, you land like normal deep strike. So you come out in a big blob. Anything with interceptor is going to have a field day with this list.. Forgot to mention that. LOL, get two riptides with interceptor and IA on the charge, if i get lucky, that 1000+ blob is a crater.

If he's running across the board, then that's a whole other mess of problems. He only has skyrays for long range support, and i doubt most of his guns are going to come down on anything significant first turn. He'll be out in the open with a huge footprint on some of his units. Assuming he suffers five causalities, he rolls LD.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

They must have changed it then because i recall it allowed you to pick an area of the board and move to it to there (quadrants or something like that).According to the psyker section of the BRB, you can not manifest any kind of psychic ability after you come in from reserves. So turn 2, he can't do anything if i'm reading that right.

So all you have on the board are three broadsides and two skyrays? That's risky. So, unless you plan on hiding them and not shooting at all during the first phase, they'll be shot at by pretty much everything the other guy has and most likely suffer wounds. On top of that, the target priority of the other player is now much easier to decide with that set up. You risk losing your only decent anti-air option.

Assuming your opponent shoots at you for two turns, you have a few problems:

1) What if your reserves fail on your death start. Your still down 1000+ points for another turn.

2) Let's assume they make it, and the opponent split his forces up to two different sides of the map. You're still forgetting about everything else that's going on. He most likely has units going across the battle field as we speak. Since you have little to no AV14 damage, he'll probably hustle his METAL BOXES across the field if he's got some. Your broadsides and skyrays can probably put a few dents in them maybe, but they'll be taking hits as well from turn one onward too. No shield drones on the sides so no invulns on ID. I would have two fire bases on either side of my deployment and concentrate my transports in the center. Now you have a giant triangle to deal with, and if im reading the pysker page right, no GoI on the first DS as your guy has no manifested abilities (still might be reading that wrong).

3) So lets say you DS in. You'll have to get close to be somewhat effective, especially with the melta, and since the enemy is pretty much spread out already, 2d6 isn't going to be reliable for all your units.(does the librarian have a jetpack?) With such a big footprint you're going to be trailing a bit, so not everyone is going to have sweet +2 cover, and again, no shield drones, so no ID saves.If you get your cover saved removed and get hit with a template that's strong enough. (Riptide with charged IA and a commander with MSS + BS5 markerlights dronesin his squad?) (Flamers?)

4) Randomness. I hate randomness. You're relying on maybe getting a reserve in. Your lib maybe not blowing his brains out. If you get doubles on the 24'' move you lose a unit. (probably your drone) Your opponent just sitting there while he waits for turn two. You can 2d6 and 24' but that's not going to get you away from any serious template weapon. If my forces are split, you'll be getting hit with one more likely than not, and still have to travel to get to them.

5) Sniping ICs. (meh, possible, not reliable).

I would argue that you've won so many games with this set up because the players you played against didn't understand how to counter it properly, and probably didn't bring the right equipment with them. I'd make it as hard as possible to DS and move around by placing terrain properly, and leave a good LOS for both fire bases and the moving transports in the center. I just don't see this working out too well against a proper set up. It's certainly not the bad ass impossible counter you've made it out to be.

Edit: Actually, according to the BRB pg 122, if at the end of any turn you don't have any units on the field, i win. So if i'm going first, and i manage to kill your two skyrays, and 3 broadsides its game over. So i guess your plan is to just hide everything and not shoot anything first turn?

Dude, i move 24" each turn, WHY should i deep-strike the Bomb? The unit starts on the table from turn one all the time! The fact that it doesn't scatter while deep-striking is useful because my 24" movement IS a deep-strike, so instead it becomes a very LONG and reliable movement (yes, all my models are close to each other being a deep-strike, but that's what JSJ is for ). A lot of people assume that i will deep-strike the unit, when i can see no reason to do it. Again: i will NOT deep-strike, i will deploy normally (better than that: i will Infiltrate, so i deploy that unit after you have deployed your army). Then, on turn one i can move up to 24" and use my full damage potential, removing everything that can threaten that unit.

So, now, let's read again what you wrote and see if it makes sense:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

They must have changed it then because i recall it allowed you to pick an area of the board and move to it to there (quadrants or something like that).According to the psyker section of the BRB, you can not manifest any kind of psychic ability after you come in from reserves. So turn 2, he can't do anything if i'm reading that right.

I don't pick an area. I pick a POINT and deep-strike from there. Without scatter thanks to Farsight.

So all you have on the board are three broadsides and two skyrays? That's risky. So, unless you plan on hiding them and not shooting at all during the first phase, they'll be shot at by pretty much everything the other guy has and most likely suffer wounds. On top of that, the target priority of the other player is now much easier to decide with that set up. You risk losing your only decent anti-air option.

Assuming your opponent shoots at you for two turns, you have a few problems:

1) What if your reserves fail on your death start. Your still down 1000+ points for another turn.

My only Reserve Rolls are the ones for troops. And i sincerely HOPE to fail them, the longer my troops are not on the table the happier i am. The Deathstart START ON THE TABLE. Every single game.

2) Let's assume they make it, and the opponent split his forces up to two different sides of the map. You're still forgetting about everything else that's going on. He most likely has units going across the battle field as we speak. Since you have little to no AV14 damage, he'll probably hustle his METAL BOXES across the field if he's got some. Your broadsides and skyrays can probably put a few dents in them maybe, but they'll be taking hits as well from turn one onward too. No shield drones on the sides so no invulns on ID. I would have two fire bases on either side of my deployment and concentrate my transports in the center. Now you have a giant triangle to deal with, and if im reading the pysker page right, no GoI on the first DS as your guy has no manifested abilities (still might be reading that wrong).

"little to no AV14 damage"? You call that 4 Twin-linked (one with BS5), longer-range Meltaguns WITH TANK HUNTER, just to be sure i roll a 7 on 2D6 and get a Penetrating Hit? And after that, the vehicle explodes on a 4+ since they have AP1? You split your forces? Good, i deploy on one side too, so on turn one and maybe 2 i eliminate eveything that is close to the rest of my army, and then with my 24" movement i go on the other side on the table and destroy everything there as well. If you think that unit can't take down a whole army alone, you haven't played versus it.

3) So lets say you DS in. You'll have to get close to be somewhat effective, especially with the melta, and since the enemy is pretty much spread out already, 2d6 isn't going to be reliable for all your units.(does the librarian have a jetpack?) With such a big footprint you're going to be trailing a bit, so not everyone is going to have sweet +2 cover, and again, no shield drones, so no ID saves.If you get your cover saved removed and get hit with a template that's strong enough. (Riptide with charged IA and a commander with MSS + BS5 markerlights dronesin his squad?) (Flamers?)

If i can't get close enough with a 24" precise movement, i deserve to lose. And if i get hit by flamers with my HUGE, precise movement PLUS JSJ, i REALLY deserve to lose. Maybe not everyone is going to have a 2+ cover save, some drones will have a 4+ cover save. After my first turn, though, everything that is a big threat is already gone, so i won't lose a lot of them. Markerlights won't exist after my first turn, and a Riptides without them makes me laugh, since he can maybe kill some drones. I actually IGNORE Riptides, there are much more threatening things in Tau armies. I played this list vs Tau twice, and tabled my opponent both times.

4) Randomness. I hate randomness. You're relying on maybe getting a reserve in. Your lib maybe not blowing his brains out. If you get doubles on the 24'' move you lose a unit. (probably your drone) Your opponent just sitting there while he waits for turn two. You can 2d6 and 24' but that's not going to get you away from any serious template weapon. If my forces are split, you'll be getting hit with one more likely than not, and still have to travel to get to them.

The only randomness that can screw me is failing a Ld10 Psychic test. I DON'T get doubles on the scatter movement roll because i don't ROLL for scatter, Farsight makes every Deep-strike movement precise (and GoI IS a Deep-Strike movement). The only Template weapons that can hurt me are Heldrakes (and they hurt a lot, they are one of the few counters to this unit, but you need 3 of them to do real damage). All other Template weapons won't exist after my first shooting phase (only Torrent templates are dangerous. And not a lot of units have them). If your forces are split, once again, you are doing me a FAVOR: it means that half of your army won't be able to do be fully effective, while my army has no mobility problems whatsoever and can easily move from one side of the table to the other in a turn. Some enemies tried to split forces to reduce my effectiveness, and they regretted it because they actually did exactly what was best for me.

5) Sniping ICs. (meh, possible, not reliable).

Not possible. Sworn Protector means that i automatically pass EVERY Look out Sir roll, which means that every hit that threatens one of my ICs gets redirected to a drone. Killing any IC is absolutely impossible if i have one remaining Bodyguard in the unit, unless i am the one that decides to allocate wounds to characters (in most games, after 2-3 turns i would rather lose Faright than a more shooty suit, so i allocate wounds to him).

I would argue that you've won so many games with this set up because the players you played against didn't understand how to counter it properly, and probably didn't bring the right equipment with them. I'd make it as hard as possible to DS and move around by placing terrain properly, and leave a good LOS for both fire bases and the moving transports in the center. I just don't see this working out too well against a proper set up. It's certainly not the bad ass impossible counter you've made it out to be.

My enemies (some of them at least) DID understand how to counter this list, but versus most armies it is IMPOSSIBLE to counter. And every one of my games was vs at least decent players (maybe not great, but not bad either), and EVERY single list i faced is a top-tier list (like the ones you will most likely find on the first tables of major tournaments). Ofc they didn't use lists tailored to mine, since i mostly play tournaments, and you need TAC lists there. (btw, in tournaments terrains are not placed by players, and in friendly games i place half of them, so i ensure i have some cover). From what you said, you obviously never faced a list like this, once you play vs it (if it's in the hands of a player with half a brain) and get tabled in 4 turns (5 if you are lucky) with you "split forces strat", let me know...

Edit: Actually, according to the BRB pg 122, if at the end of any turn you don't have any units on the field, i win. So if i'm going first, and i manage to kill your two skyrays, and 3 broadsides its game over. So i guess your plan is to just hide everything and not shoot anything first turn?

A "turn" is not just a PLAYER'S turn. If you start, at the end on MY turn i lose if i don't have anything. But this is all extremely redundand since i will DEPLOY my unit from turn one, good luck killing it as well. If you actually shoot at it instead of shooting Broadsides, you do me a favor.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:He starts the Bomb on the board. GoI moves you round the board using the deep strike rules. Teschio seems to think this means Farsight makes you not scatter which is not the case.

Tau codex, page 32: "Your Warlord, and any unit he joins, does not scatter when arriving by Deep Strike."
Rulebook, page 422 (Gate of Infinity entry): "Remove the target unit from the board. It then immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike."

Seems to me like Farsight prevents scatter, since Gate of Infinity IS a deep-strike....

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

Oh i see, i just assumed he was DS them because of the topic. Unless the lib has a jetpack he's going to be 2d6 in a weird kind of line of units to keep coherency. Farsight's trait says that he and his unit never fail scatter on DS. The rules for GoL state that you move 24 inches using the deep strike rules. I assume it confers.

Best part about that, if i'm reading the GoL right, you land like normal deep strike. So you come out in a big blob. Anything with interceptor is going to have a field day with this list.. Forgot to mention that. LOL, get two riptides with interceptor and IA on the charge, if i get lucky, that 1000+ blob is a crater.

If he's running across the board, then that's a whole other mess of problems. He only has skyrays for long range support, and i doubt most of his guns are going to come down on anything significant first turn. He'll be out in the open with a huge footprint on some of his units. Assuming he suffers five causalities, he rolls LD.

The Librarian doesn't make a JSJ movement. But i will deploy it on the far end of the unit, in the direction i want to JSJ to, then move evry other model and keep him at 2" coherency. This allows me for a movement of about 6-7", depending on how many drones i have left. I don't care if the Libby becomes the first target, since with Sworn Protector no hit will be ever allocated to him.

Interceptor units don't do ANYTHING vs it. The rule works when a unit enters from Reserve, and my bodyguards are never in Reserve, they deploy. The fact that they move with Deep-Strike rules doesn't mean they also come from Reserve, so Interceptor won't apply (and even if it did, i would just deep-strike under cover, and i would save those pieplates on a 2+).

I don't "runacross the board", i move 24" each turn, and jump from cover to cover. I actually lose more models from Dangerous Terrain tests than i lose to Riptides and things like that.... I don't care, losing a couple of drones to have 2+ cover save on everything else is still a bargain. Oh, and even if i fail a Ld test, i really don't care: ATSKNF makes me rally automatically, and then i can move and shoot normally. Wonders of the Librarian.

Oh i see, i just assumed he was DS them because of the topic. Unless the lib has a jetpack he's going to be 2d6 in a weird kind of line of units to keep coherency. Farsight's trait says that he and his unit never fail scatter on DS. The rules for GoL state that you move 24 inches using the deep strike rules. I assume it confers.

Best part about that, if i'm reading the GoL right, you land like normal deep strike. So you come out in a big blob. Anything with interceptor is going to have a field day with this list.. Forgot to mention that. LOL, get two riptides with interceptor and IA on the charge, if i get lucky, that 1000+ blob is a crater.

If he's running across the board, then that's a whole other mess of problems. He only has skyrays for long range support, and i doubt most of his guns are going to come down on anything significant first turn. He'll be out in the open with a huge footprint on some of his units. Assuming he suffers five causalities, he rolls

Far sight allows you to not scatter when you ARRIVE by DS. You are not arriving when you are GoI. Just being placed by DS rules.

You are not arriving from reserve at all so no interceptor. With an intercepting Riptide or 3 you land big blasts on the unit and they get 2+ cover against it and you kill maybe 4-5 Drones with 3 Riptides...

24" move means he's in range turn 1, given he is also infiltrating (again something not allowed by the rules), he'll be where he needs to be to kill what matters.

 FlingitNow wrote:


Far sight allows you to not scatter when you ARRIVE by DS. You are not arriving when you are GoI. Just being placed by DS rules.

You are not arriving from reserve at all so no interceptor. With an intercepting Riptide or 3 you land big blasts on the unit and they get 2+ cover against it and you kill maybe 4-5 Drones with 3 Riptides...

24" move means he's in range turn 1, given he is also infiltrating (again something not allowed by the rules), he'll be where he needs to be to kill what matters.

You get removed from the tabled, and redeployed using the Deep-Strike rules. In what universe is this different than "arriving by DS"? There is not much debate about that, it seems to me, GoI follows the rules of DS and therefore anything that affects DS (like Warp quake, for example, which is a bit of a nuisance with this army, since it limits your mobility), affects is as well.

About Infiltrate, there is some debate about it. But i will generally deploy in my deploy zone, since 24" movement is more than enough to allow me 100% effectiveness on turn 1, so it won't make a big difference anyway.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Oh i see, i just assumed he was DS them because of the topic. Unless the lib has a jetpack he's going to be 2d6 in a weird kind of line of units to keep coherency. Farsight's trait says that he and his unit never fail scatter on DS. The rules for GoL state that you move 24 inches using the deep strike rules. I assume it confers.

Best part about that, if i'm reading the GoL right, you land like normal deep strike. So you come out in a big blob. Anything with interceptor is going to have a field day with this list.. Forgot to mention that. LOL, get two riptides with interceptor and IA on the charge, if i get lucky, that 1000+ blob is a crater.

If he's running across the board, then that's a whole other mess of problems. He only has skyrays for long range support, and i doubt most of his guns are going to come down on anything significant first turn. He'll be out in the open with a huge footprint on some of his units. Assuming he suffers five causalities, he rolls

Far sight allows you to not scatter when you ARRIVE by DS. You are not arriving when you are GoI. Just being placed by DS rules.

You are not arriving from reserve at all so no interceptor. With an intercepting Riptide or 3 you land big blasts on the unit and they get 2+ cover against it and you kill maybe 4-5 Drones with 3 Riptides...

24" move means he's in range turn 1, given he is also infiltrating (again something not allowed by the rules), he'll be where he needs to be to kill what matters.

I guess that makes sense. Interceptor does say specifically that it's reserve only. So, yea that wouldn't work. Oh well, wait next turn to remove cover and end it then.

You're right. Farsight, and the Lib can not join the unit if they do not have the infiltrate USR and they plan to infiltrate. If i remember right, there was a thread somewhere arguing about them being allowed to join at all. I think it came down to some suggesting they could so long as they were not in the process of infiltrating as they are not infiltrators until they do so, and some saying the rule says they can never join. Forgot about that detail.

Whoa. Take a deep breath. You never said anything about not DS, in a thread about DS. Excuse me if you're message wasn't well received.

Teschio wrote:

"little to no AV14 damage"? You call that 4 Twin-linked (one with BS5), longer-range Meltaguns WITH TANK HUNTER, just to be sure i roll a 7 on 2D6 and get a Penetrating Hit? And after that, the vehicle explodes on a 4+ since they have AP1? You split your forces? Good, i deploy on one side too, so on turn one and maybe 2 i eliminate eveything that is close to the rest of my army, and then with my 24" movement i go on the other side on the table and destroy everything there as well. If you think that unit can't take down a whole army alone, you haven't played versus it.

If i know you're not going to put them in reserve and i see what unit comp you have, why would i not put everything on the board edge of my deployment zone? Your range advantage suddenly is lost. Even, if you sit at the 12in deployment zone you have, and get a perfect 24 inch move with no mishaps from the warp, you are still at least 8-9 inch away maybe more.

If i'm smart, all my tanks are hidden behind terrain, so i'm not worried about them, and most of my troops will have some kind of cover. Your list screams "HIDE ROUND ONE IF THIS GUY GOES FIRST!!!"

Your twin linked FB are the only thing you have for AV14 really. If they place their tanks right, you wont be shooting them on that turn.

Teschio wrote:

After my first turn, though, everything that is a big threat is already gone

Impossible. Multiple fire bases, split forces. We're talking 1850pts. The other guy is bringing stuff too you know.

Teschio wrote:

Markerlights won't exist after my first turn

What are you on. So not only are you simultaneously taking out every single threat to your bomb, you also take out all support too? Let me guess, you get half the troop of the opponent killed too. I don't know about you, but if that's your experience with the people that you've been playing against, they either don't know what they're doing or they suck. Also, see above ^

Teschio wrote:

I actually IGNORE Riptides, there are much more threatening things in Tau armies.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ignore my riptide. Please do. Markerlights are resolved on hit, so your cover save doesn't matter at all. If i give my commander markerliight drones i'll have six drones, lets say. That's 6 BS5 markerlights. You're going to get at least 3-4 markers. I expend those markers on my riptide getting ignore cover and BS6 if i can help it. My IA S8 AP2 72in large blast over charge will wreck any unit it can hit. If i set up MY SIDE of the board with terrian properly, with maybe two riptides on either side of the corner edge, i'll most likely have a good shot to hit your blob. They're going to get WRECKED. I always bring at least one anyway.

Teschio wrote:

once again, you are doing me a FAVOR: it means that half of your army won't be able to do be fully effective

You do realize most template weapons have a long range right? In fact, almost all the tau template weapons have a long range to them. Most other codexs have long ranged template weapons. As i said, you're forgetting about so many other factors in the game. Again, i can only assume your attitude comes from experience, which means your opponents just are not that good at handling this army, or good in general.

Teschio wrote:

IMPOSSIBLE to counter.

Yes, because turn one you kill their support, their templates, their only counters to it, everything before they can do anything to you. All with ONE unit!

Teschio wrote:

in tournaments terrains are not placed by players,

If i'm allowed to know what you're taking, this will make setting up for that easy. Assuming i don't get screwed with poor placement.

Teschio wrote:

From what you said, you obviously never faced a list like this, once you play vs it (if it's in the hands of a player with half a brain) and get tabled in 4 turns (5 if you are lucky) with you "split forces strat", let me know...

Of course not. Plenty of holes in your list though.

Teschio wrote:

good luck killing it as well. If you actually shoot at it instead of shooting Broadsides, you do me a favor.

If the blob is on the board and i can hit it, it'll be markerlit, and hit by a riptide with ignore cover. Of course, i tried to explain the problems with your list in a general sense, not my army against yours.

Teschio wrote:

I don't care if the Libby becomes the first target, since with Sworn Protector no hit will be ever allocated to him

Templates. Also, LoS covers 6'' range only. So you might want a few drones around that Lib if you want him to survive reliably, especially if the opponent has split his fire bases up.

Ultimately, i refuse to believe in an "impossible to counter" list. It's strong, but your's aint one.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Whoa. Take a deep breath. You never said anything about not DS, in a thread about DS. Excuse me if you're message wasn't well received.

If you see a Librarian without terminator armour (so he can't deep-strike), what do you think? That i bought it for something that is not GoI? I was obvious the unit wasn't deep-striking.... I actually WROTE that the Librarian was bought to use GoI. Next time, read what others wrote before replying.

If i know you're not going to put them in reserve and i see what unit comp you have, why would i not put everything on the board edge of my deployment zone? Your range advantage suddenly is lost. Even, if you sit at the 12in deployment zone you have, and get a perfect 24 inch move with no mishaps from the warp, you are still at least 8-9 inch away maybe more.

Mishaps are impossible since the unit does not scatter.... depending on the type of deployment, i can or can't be within 9" of your AV14 vehicles (in Hammer and Anvil deployment, i WILL be). But since they don't pose a threat to me, i can kill something else and wait next turn to pop them.

If i'm smart, all my tanks are hidden behind terrain, so i'm not worried about them, and most of my troops will have some kind of cover. Your list screams "HIDE ROUND ONE IF THIS GUY GOES FIRST!!!"

I Ignore Cover with that unit. If i see a fraction of an inch of a tank, i can kill it. It's impossible to hide everything from sight, i just have to kill what i can see and wait for you to get out of cover (if you don't, the following turn i will be behind you since i don't scatter, and i will kill things anyway). Excpet for flyers, nothing in this game moves as fast as that unit (while still being able to shoot). You can't hide from it forever...

Your twin linked FB are the only thing you have for AV14 really. If they place their tanks right, you wont be shooting them on that turn.

Oh, i'm scared of AV14 vehicles. What can they do to me on turn one? Unless i am completely stupid, i will just stay at around 20-22" from them, and (assuming we are talking about termys on LR) they won't assault me. Actually, between Overwatch fire and my CC attacks (and the fact that you will kill drones in HtH), i can tank 5 termys without problems. But it's just easier to ignore them on turn one and focus on something else. On turn 2, any AV14 vehicle will die.

Impossible. Multiple fire bases, split forces. We're talking 1850pts. The other guy is bringing stuff too you know.

So, you assume all your weapons have enough range to reach my units from the other side of the table, and you will have LoS to them, and i won't have covers. So you are assuming you are playing versus a monkey. Consider that not everything is a threat. I said the dangerous things will pop on turn one, and there aren't many of those with this army...

What are you on. So not only are you simultaneously taking out every single threat to your bomb, you also take out all support too? Let me guess, you get half the troop of the opponent killed too. I don't know about you, but if that's your experience with the people that you've been playing against, they either don't know what they're doing or they suck. Also, see above ^

If i am playing Tau, MLs are the ONLY targets i will have on turn one. Everything else is optional. Broadsides can be a decent secondary target, if i am SURE that i will kill all MLs as well. This is why i ignore Riptides: without MLs, they do nothing to me. Consider i also have Skyrays and Broadsides to kill MLs... yes, i WILL use the missiles from skyrays to kill ML sources if i have to. Once all MLs are gone, nothing else in a Tau army can be a threat to me. The only MLs i can allow to let live for another turn are Pathfinders more than 36" from my Bodyguards, in case you split forces.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ignore my riptide. Please do. Markerlights are resolved on hit, so your cover save doesn't matter at all. If i give my commander markerliight drones i'll have six drones, lets say. That's 6 BS5 markerlights. You're going to get at least 3-4 markers. I expend those markers on my riptide getting ignore cover and BS6 if i can help it. My IA S8 AP2 72in large blast over charge will wreck any unit it can hit. If i set up MY SIDE of the board with terrian properly, with maybe two riptides on either side of the corner edge, i'll most likely have a good shot to hit your blob. They're going to get WRECKED. I always bring at least one anyway.

Riptides do NOTHING without MLs. You assume you will have them, and if you do Riptides rape me. But i will use my first turn to make sure you DO NOT have MLs. They are the ONLY target i will have to take care of during my first turn. Nothing else is important. With my huge firepower, i can eliminate any number of pathfinders/drones/skyrays, and ensure your Riptide's pieplates will be saved on a 2+.

You do realize most template weapons have a long range right? In fact, almost all the tau template weapons have a long range to them. Most other codexs have long ranged template weapons. As i said, you're forgetting about so many other factors in the game. Again, i can only assume your attitude comes from experience, which means your opponents just are not that good at handling this army, or good in general.

With "templates" i mean template weapons, i.e. flamers. Blast and Large Blast weapons will be saved on a 2+ since they don't ignore cover like Templates do. I don't care about them. Without Ignore Cover, you Riptides can maybe kill 2-3 drones with a perfect hit. That's scary....

Yes, because turn one you kill their support, their templates, their only counters to it, everything before they can do anything to you. All with ONE unit!

Maybe i wasn't clear (or you are assuming you are talking to someone that doesn't have opposable thumbs): on turn one i kill what is THREATENING. Are Blasts threatening if they don't Ignore Cover? No, so i can IGNORE THEM. Vs Tau, on turn one i kill ONLY MLs (Broadsides if i have shots to spare, because SMSs Ignore Cover and can kill a few drones). Vs other armies, i kill what is most threatening (which may or may not be templates: even S10 AP2 Large Blasts do nothing to me, but a Hellhound kills a lot of drones and therefore it must go. Nurgle Spawns can be a problem if i don't start to kill them early, but Obliterators do nothing to me and can be ignored). I can't kill all your army in one turn (but on 4, it's pretty easy to do), but i can kill what is threatening. Oh, and that one unit can reliably kill 3-4 units a turn, plus i have other stuff as well.

If i'm allowed to know what you're taking, this will make setting up for that easy. Assuming i don't get screwed with poor placement.

We are talking about TAC lists, not tailored ones. In a tournament, you can bring something that gives a Farsight Enclave problems (i can think of a few counter lists myself that can totally screw with this list), too bad you will likely lose vs most other lists.... All i am saying is valid in an environment in which you know my list 5 minutes before we start playing (like in tournaments).

Of course not. Plenty of holes in your list though.

So many holes, that i know a few other people that use it, and in maybe 100 games total it lost 2 or 3 times. I also know for sure some ETC teams are seriously considering to bring it to the ETC as well. But i'm sure if the best players in Europe think this list is a beast, they don't understand it's full of holes. Try to explain it to them, since you obviously assume you can beat it easily without having it seen in action ONCE. I played versus some opponents that saw the list for the first time and thought "man, i can win easily". After 4 turns they got tabled, and switched to "man, this list is broken!" Try it (if you are capable of using it, not everyone is) or find some decent player that uses it, and see for yourself if it's full of holes. The only holes this list sees are the ones it makes on the ground when it crushes its opponent....

If the blob is on the board and i can hit it, it'll be markerlit, and hit by a riptide with ignore cover. Of course, i tried to explain the problems with your list in a general sense, not my army against yours.

Oh yes, because you are playing versus a monkey. If you have first turn and have Riptides, i will deploy my unit in a LINE, at maximum coherency, taking care of being at 36" from Broadsides. All my drones will also be half an inch closer to you than the suits. You can ML the unit as much as you want, and throw pieplates at it, assuming a perfect hit you can kill THREE drones max (because a pieplate hits at most 3 models in a line if they keep at 2" from each other). Then it's my turn, i move 24" (measuring from a model of my choice as well), and eliminate every ML source you have. Good luck doing something else with Riptides vs that unit after that.

Templates. Also, LoS covers 6'' range only. So you might want a few drones around that Lib if you want him to survive reliably, especially if the opponent has split his fire bases up.

Oh my god, if you think the answer is "templates", you should read the rules again... even with BARRAGE templates (the others hit the closest models), you allocate wounds. And i can re-allocate them to the closest model because i automatically pass LoS tests. I can't think of anything that negates LoS. This is why i really don't care if a character is the closest model, unless there is NO other model within 6" or i already lost all the suits, a character can't be allocated wounds unless i want him to. I don't need drones around the libby, i need them behind him within 6". Which can be done preatty easily, since the will move and he won't.

Ultimately, i refuse to believe in an "impossible to counter" list. It's strong, but your's aint one.

I totally agree. There is no such thing as an uncounterable list. If i KNOW i have to face this list, i can think of a few tailored lists myself that can destroy it pretty easily. The problem is, those counters are very few, not all armies have them, and in a tournament some of those are rare (or non-existent). This list has less counter than any other list i know of though, therefore i think it is the strongest list right now. The funny thing is, everything you said is NOT a way to counter this list... there are ways, but you didn't mention them (just to do you a favor, i will mention one: deep-striking marker drones: i can't kill them if they are not on the table, and they force me to concentrate my firepower on hard-to-kill Riptides if i want to survive their entrance. I have at least one turn of shooting before they arrive, so i can plan accordingly, but still they are a great counter. It's actually quite simple, i wonder why you didn't think of it yourself... if you can't realize than and instead think Riptides are a solution, or splitting forces, i hope you never have to face this list... you would get crushed).

Teschio. I disagree with you and I think you should let Farsight be its own bomb. It doesn't need anything. No librarian, no Shadowsun, no eldar. It drops in, kills a lot of things, people panic, game over. I have seen a friend of mine running Farsight with a full squad of bodyguards and drones and he wins every match. There is no point to any of this mindless arguing. I have seen it happen.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
Teschio. I disagree with you and I think you should let Farsight be its own bomb. It doesn't need anything. No librarian, no Shadowsun, no eldar. It drops in, kills a lot of things, people panic, game over. I have seen a friend of mine running Farsight with a full squad of bodyguards and drones and he wins every match. There is no point to any of this mindless arguing. I have seen it happen.

Depends on what lists it faces. Vs a decent player with a good list, it can do damage but it can't win alone, and it gets killed with a little effort too. If "people panic", they are just bad players. A normal Farsight Bomb costs over 800 points, adding less than 250 points you double is resistance (2+ cover save vs 4+/3+ armor save), you quadruple its movement, and you add a couple of fusion blasters too (at BS5). Also, that list relies on Reserve rolls, if you miss the first one you play 3 turns with half the points the enemy has. Top lists will not lose frequently vs that. You may have seen it happen, but i don't think a personal experience tells much about a lists' strength. I played a lot of mathces with a Farsight Enclave, and each one of them was vs top lists (just to be clear, something you will see on the first 10 tables of Adepticon, ETC or other similar tournaments), and i know of other people that used it as well (in tournaments, not friendly matches). Farsight with no Shadowsun is simply too fragile, and without a libby it's too static. Less than 30% more points, and you double the survivability and greatly increase the mobility. Sorry to say that but a list with only Farsight is half as effective as one with Shadowsun and Librarian as well. Splitting forces actually works very well versus that list, and Riptides tear you apart because no cover save and models closed together = the entire unit dies on a Hit from the Large Blast. It just doens't work. Has your friend tried to do some big tournament with it? I am assuming no, or we would have lost a few matches. The list i proposed loses maybe 3 or 4 matches every 100. And this comes from a pool of over 100 games played with it (by myself or others), and in an environment that is highly competitive. Also, as i said some ETC teams are testing it and using it as well (and these are the best players in all of Europe). It's a little more than "i have seen it happen". Just the fact that it's almost an autolose vs two Riptides should tell you that that list is not effective.

Teschio wrote:

If you see a Librarian without terminator armour (so he can't deep-strike), what do you think? That i bought it for something that is not GoI? I was obvious the unit wasn't deep-striking.... I actually WROTE that the Librarian was bought to use GoI. Next time, read what others wrote before replying.

Double checked your original list, and subsequent replies to mine. It's not a manner of not reading, but not understanding what certain abilities do. If you calm down and read through what people post, you'll see sometimes they need clarification as the 40k rules are not always easy access information.

Teschio wrote:

Mishaps are impossible since the unit does not scatter.... depending on the type of deployment, i can or can't be within 9" of your AV14 vehicles (in Hammer and Anvil deployment, i WILL be). But since they don't pose a threat to me, i can kill something else and wait next turn to pop them.

I think that is debatable. It's not coming from reserves, but it uses the rules of deep-strike. So, roll 2d6, place one model on the table, place all others around it. If it's following the rules of deep-strike to allow farsight's ability, then it must too be unable to charge afterwards, etc, and then if it's following all that, why not let interceptor take effect? Even though interceptor says "from reserves" there's that gray area.

Teschio wrote:

I Ignore Cover with that unit. If i see a fraction of an inch of a tank, i can kill it. It's impossible to hide everything from sight, i just have to kill what i can see and wait for you to get out of cover (if you don't, the following turn i will be behind you since i don't scatter, and i will kill things anyway). Excpet for flyers, nothing in this game moves as fast as that unit (while still being able to shoot). You can't hide from it forever...

The longer i am able to hide from you, and not take any damage the worst off you become. Simply because with two separate fire bases i have two angles of attack. With such a large foot print, it's more likely that you can't hide forever. You have to make big plays early, or you're going to have a bad time. *insersouthparkskiguy.jpeg*

Teschio wrote:

Oh, i'm scared of AV14 vehicles. What can they do to me on turn one? Unless i am completely stupid, i will just stay at around 20-22" from them, and (assuming we are talking about termys on LR) they won't assault me. Actually, between Overwatch fire and my CC attacks (and the fact that you will kill drones in HtH), i can tank 5 termys without problems. But it's just easier to ignore them on turn one and focus on something else. On turn 2, any AV14 vehicle will die.

I'd only use assault transports to go after your blob if i can reach it. No, AV14 like LR and such would be trying to bypass your blob and go for your deployment zone. They'll be there by turn 2. If you want to stick to your claim of removing them turn 2 two with that blob, you'll be jumping away from the "serious threats". Unless you think the missile-sides and skyrays can do the job. Depending on terrain that might not put you in good places because of your large footprint.

Teschio wrote:

So, you assume all your weapons have enough range to reach my units from the other side of the table, and you will have LoS to them, and i won't have covers. So you are assuming you are playing versus a monkey. Consider that not everything is a threat. I said the dangerous things will pop on turn one, and there aren't many of those with this army...

Most Tau stuff do, a lot of pie plates on other codexs have large enough range to hit deployment zones. Your blob has a big footprint, and your lib can not jet pack which leaves you in awkward positioning set ups. You're also assuming you'll get a halfway decent 2d6 jet pack move. With two different fire bases i have two different points of attack. If you're on the left side of the board, the right side will most likely have a shot. If you're on the right side, the left side will most likely have a shot. If you're in the middle, depending on the terrain, jetpack move, and how big the foot print is, both sides get a shot.

Also in the case of Tau, markerlights resolve on hit, and does not have saves. All your cover is pointless, and Support'O's with 6 markerlight drones is very popular, along with bringing pathfinders these days.

Teschio wrote:

If i am playing Tau, MLs are the ONLY targets i will have on turn one. Everything else is optional. Broadsides can be a decent secondary target, if i am SURE that i will kill all MLs as well. This is why i ignore Riptides: without MLs, they do nothing to me. Consider i also have Skyrays and Broadsides to kill MLs... yes, i WILL use the missiles from skyrays to kill ML sources if i have to. Once all MLs are gone, nothing else in a Tau army can be a threat to me. The only MLs i can allow to let live for another turn are Pathfinders more than 36" from my Bodyguards, in case you split forces.

In most of the lists I've made with pathfinders i put them in two separate squads. Usually up front if i can help it. Like i said though, against your list i would deploy defensively. With two groups and so many targets you have to go for, along with splitting them up, you'll have a hard time removing them, plus all my other forces. You have a lot of points potentially not doing enough during turns, especially if i am deployed right.

Skyrays and broadsides. So you'll be using your seeker missiles on pathfinders? Your broadsides have 36in on the HYMP. They're not going to be doing much of anything. Committing those units to MLs would mean now you only have your bomb for AV killing.

Teschio wrote:

Riptides do NOTHING without MLs. You assume you will have them, and if you do Riptides rape me. But i will use my first turn to make sure you DO NOT have MLs. They are the ONLY target i will have to take care of during my first turn. Nothing else is important. With my huge firepower, i can eliminate any number of pathfinders/drones/skyrays, and ensure your Riptide's pieplates will be saved on a 2+.

Support'O with 6 markerlight drones hidden so you can not get him first turn, which is not hard to do by any means. Again, split forces, multiple ML sources. Impossible. "Riptide's pieplates will be saved on a 2+." Support'O with MSS with riptide. Wait let me guess. You'll kill all the MLs spread out on the board, and get the riptide and commander killed turn 1. Got it.

Teschio wrote:

With "templates" i mean template weapons, i.e. flamers. Blast and Large Blast weapons will be saved on a 2+ since they don't ignore cover like Templates do. I don't care about them. Without Ignore Cover, you Riptides can maybe kill 2-3 drones with a perfect hit. That's scary....

For me, i'll most likely have ignore cover on at least one model shooting at you. 2-3 drones with a perfect hit? How do you figure? The LoS rule? All of your units get a perfect 2d6 roll and they all get in cover?

Teschio wrote:

Maybe i wasn't clear (or you are assuming you are talking to someone that doesn't have opposable thumbs): on turn one i kill what is THREATENING. Are Blasts threatening if they don't Ignore Cover? No, so i can IGNORE THEM. Vs Tau, on turn one i kill ONLY MLs (Broadsides if i have shots to spare, because SMSs Ignore Cover and can kill a few drones). Vs other armies, i kill what is most threatening (which may or may not be templates: even S10 AP2 Large Blasts do nothing to me, but a Hellhound kills a lot of drones and therefore it must go. Nurgle Spawns can be a problem if i don't start to kill them early, but Obliterators do nothing to me and can be ignored). I can't kill all your army in one turn (but on 4, it's pretty easy to do), but i can kill what is threatening. Oh, and that one unit can reliably kill 3-4 units a turn, plus i have other stuff as well.

"on turn one i kill what is THREATENING"

Kid, you're playing a 1750 game. You're just conveniently forgetting what the other guy can bring to, and his deployment options. You have one mega death unit that CAN NOT kill everything on turn one. It's impossible. This is made even HARDER to do when you factor in infiltrators. If i infiltrate a few cheap kroot(kroot is semi-popular) in areas where you might GoL, you're entire plan hits a snag. Sure you have hit and run, but your options become limited, and your unit can easily run into problems, especially with sniper kroot. Hell, i could troll the gak out of you and just put units in areas you would 2d6 to. Then you get nothing, since you cant be within 1in of a model base.

On top of that, the heavy support you have, will either not reach, or not be effective enough with what they're armed with. Skyrays against a kroot blob? lol, what about the MLs you planned to go after with the Skyrays? And that's just with Tau.

Teschio wrote:

We are talking about TAC lists, not tailored ones. In a tournament, you can bring something that gives a Farsight Enclave problems (i can think of a few counter lists myself that can totally screw with this list), too bad you will likely lose vs most other lists.... All i am saying is valid in an environment in which you know my list 5 minutes before we start playing (like in tournaments).

In terms of TAC lists. Kroot are popular for Tau. Most SM will have AV14 that you'll have a hard time popping. Chaos has those helldrakes or whatever they're called that are an issue for everyone. If you lose your skyrays you're screwed on that. Necron have their warlord who can go into a chariot with that warsycthe (S7 AP1) and can just fly over you're entire blob and get a powerful sweeping attack on every model he flies over then turn around and still have the option to shoot. Or he can go after your deployment zone and attack your skyray and broadsides. That scythe has armor bane as well. Etc etc.

Then of course, the 1750pts limit and everything they're bringing too which your single blob has to deal with somehow, with little to no backup.

All you're saying is valid in your specific meta, and/or the people you are playing against are horrible.

Teschio wrote:

So many holes, that i know a few other people that use it, and in maybe 100 games total it lost 2 or 3 times. I also know for sure some ETC teams are seriously considering to bring it to the ETC as well. But i'm sure if the best players in Europe think this list is a beast, they don't understand it's full of holes. Try to explain it to them, since you obviously assume you can beat it easily without having it seen in action ONCE. I played versus some opponents that saw the list for the first time and thought "man, i can win easily". After 4 turns they got tabled, and switched to "man, this list is broken!" Try it (if you are capable of using it, not everyone is) or find some decent player that uses it, and see for yourself if it's full of holes. The only holes this list sees are the ones it makes on the ground when it crushes its opponent....

Your argument for it isn't compelling because you're telling me it is a Swiss army knife right out the door. That all threats are neutralized immediately. I never said beat it, i simply argued that all the positives you suggested completely ignored the reality of the game. You assume you'll get perfect rolls, actually hit the "important targets", actually be able to remove enough "important targets" per shooting phase, there's a lot of what if's in this list.

The Tau codex is relatively new, and Tau wasn't a big swinger in any significant way in tournaments pre 6th edition codex. You almost NEVER saw Tau on any top 10 army list from tournaments. Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if the people you're going up against don't even know what some of you're guys can even do. I wonder how many times they ask you what specific units can do and their weapon stats. I don't think it's a stretch to assume these opponents don't know how to effectively play against Tau in general, especially with this curve ball list.

Teschio wrote:

Oh yes, because you are playing versus a monkey. If you have first turn and have Riptides, i will deploy my unit in a LINE, at maximum coherency, taking care of being at 36" from Broadsides. All my drones will also be half an inch closer to you than the suits. You can ML the unit as much as you want, and throw pieplates at it, assuming a perfect hit you can kill THREE drones max (because a pieplate hits at most 3 models in a line if they keep at 2" from each other). Then it's my turn, i move 24" (measuring from a model of my choice as well), and eliminate every ML source you have. Good luck doing something else with Riptides vs that unit after that.

I assume by drones you mean, LoS the drones. Fair enough. Only problem with that is LoS has a maximum range of 6''. So let's see. you have them 2'' spread apart, that means at most, you'll have 3 drones is it to spare just for LoS wounds? Also broadsides have a 60in range with HRR. There's other units that can reach too, if we're talking Tau at least, and i have 1750pts to use. If you're not hiding your ICs somewhere you're gonna have a hard time.

Teschio wrote:

Oh my god, if you think the answer is "templates", you should read the rules again... even with BARRAGE templates (the others hit the closest models), you allocate wounds. And i can re-allocate them to the closest model because i automatically pass LoS tests. I can't think of anything that negates LoS. This is why i really don't care if a character is the closest model, unless there is NO other model within 6" or i already lost all the suits, a character can't be allocated wounds unless i want him to. I don't need drones around the libby, i need them behind him within 6". Which can be done preatty easily, since the will move and he won't.
.

In the case of the Riptide, Overcharged IA will ID everything under that blast (ignore cover is not hard to get with Tau). So, i hope you have enough stuff to throw away on those IC, and make sure they're never within 5in of each other.

Teschio wrote:

I totally agree. There is no such thing as an uncounterable list. If i KNOW i have to face this list, i can think of a few tailored lists myself that can destroy it pretty easily. The problem is, those counters are very few, not all armies have them, and in a tournament some of those are rare (or non-existent). This list has less counter than any other list i know of though, therefore i think it is the strongest list right now. The funny thing is, everything you said is NOT a way to counter this list... there are ways, but you didn't mention them (just to do you a favor, i will mention one: deep-striking marker drones: i can't kill them if they are not on the table, and they force me to concentrate my firepower on hard-to-kill Riptides if i want to survive their entrance. I have at least one turn of shooting before they arrive, so i can plan accordingly, but still they are a great counter. It's actually quite simple, i wonder why you didn't think of it yourself... if you can't realize than and instead think Riptides are a solution, or splitting forces, i hope you never have to face this list... you would get crushed).

Only issue is that every single point you raise, i bring up an easy to field, not tailored solution to it. Every comment you make about it's merits, i point out all the flaws and all the not-so-uncommon styles of game play that people use all the time. I am finding no trouble to offer challenges to this list that doesn't require something premeditated to beat.

On top of that, the support for your blob is non-existent. You rely on a single unit to deal damage, against a large army.

Totally forgot to mention your deployment zone getting DS. Do you just kind of let that happen while your blob tries to fight the main army? Also, what happens when you fail the 2d6 thrust move and get a low roll? Hope the 3+ save holds out, against 1750pts of stuff?

Your defense of this list, and your claims, do not match the reality of the game and the way its played. While i don't doubt you've won more games than lost with this list (no way to tell for sure anyway), i do doubt it's because of the list, and I'm more inclined to believe its because the opponent. This has just dissolved into a big pissing contest though. I've made my points. Enjoy your "unbeatable" list.

Ok, i am really starting to wonder if you can even understand how ridiculous the things you said sound right now... If you are a troll, you are doing an excellent job, and i am a fool because i am still answering you.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
I think that is debatable. It's not coming from reserves, but it uses the rules of deep-strike. So, roll 2d6, place one model on the table, place all others around it. If it's following the rules of deep-strike to allow farsight's ability, then it must too be unable to charge afterwards, etc, and then if it's following all that, why not let interceptor take effect? Even though interceptor says "from reserves" there's that gray area.

You arrive following the rules for Deep-Strike. In those rules, it's specified you can't assault. But Interception has NOTHING to do with deep-strike, it activates once you arrive from Reserve (even if you outflank, or come from your table side). Yes, i do deep-strike, but no, i do not come from Reserve. Hence, no Interception. This is just me reading the rules, why can't you do the same? There is absolutely no gray area about it, the rules are clear. And, once again, i DO NOT ROLL for scatter. Farsight prevents scatter if you are deep-striking, therefore i never roll those 2D6 and i arrive precisely where i want to.

The longer i am able to hide from you, and not take any damage the worst off you become. Simply because with two separate fire bases i have two angles of attack. With such a large foot print, it's more likely that you can't hide forever. You have to make big plays early, or you're going to have a bad time. *insersouthparkskiguy.jpeg*

You can hide A FEW things on turn one, but i will still be able to use my entire firepower to take what i can see. Which means 3 or 4 units (expecially if there are vehicles. Even 5 versus light vehicles, Tank Hunter missiles rock). Again, if we ever meet on the field, PLEASE split your forces, you are doing me a favor. A lot of people tried it and it failed miserably (at the end of my post i will tell you how you should try to face that unit. And splitting forces is the exact opposite of what you should do).

I'd only use assault transports to go after your blob if i can reach it. No, AV14 like LR and such would be trying to bypass your blob and go for your deployment zone. They'll be there by turn 2. If you want to stick to your claim of removing them turn 2 two with that blob, you'll be jumping away from the "serious threats". Unless you think the missile-sides and skyrays can do the job. Depending on terrain that might not put you in good places because of your large footprint.

How you can bypass something that moves 24" is not very clear... once i get within 9" of a LR, that LR melts. And since i have 360° vision, i can STILL be in range to eliminate something else. Against anything except AV13/14 vehicles, i have my full firepower at 12", and if i am not in dire need of extra plasma shots, this range becomes 18". It' a very LONG range with something that is so mobile.

Most Tau stuff do, a lot of pie plates on other codexs have large enough range to hit deployment zones. Your blob has a big footprint, and your lib can not jet pack which leaves you in awkward positioning set ups. You're also assuming you'll get a halfway decent 2d6 jet pack move. With two different fire bases i have two different points of attack. If you're on the left side of the board, the right side will most likely have a shot. If you're on the right side, the left side will most likely have a shot. If you're in the middle, depending on the terrain, jetpack move, and how big the foot print is, both sides get a shot.

Also in the case of Tau, markerlights resolve on hit, and does not have saves. All your cover is pointless, and Support'O's with 6 markerlight drones is very popular, along with bringing pathfinders these days.

Again, after my first turn you will NOT have any more ML on the field. I really, REALLY don't care if all your weapons have 100000" range, as long as i save on a 2+ you won't do much damage. You use your pieplates on my Broadsides and Skyrays? THANK YOU! The Bodyguards alone can table you in 4-5 turns, the more you shoot at something else, the easier my game becomes.
You are still assuming you will have MLs with Tau, and you WON'T. Stop thinking about that, after my first turn your ML sources on the field will amount to ZERO. The only option (and a good one too) is to keep in Reserve marker drones. THAT can really cause troubles. Hoping pathfinders or commander+drones can resist even one turn vs that unit is ridiculous.

In most of the lists I've made with pathfinders i put them in two separate squads. Usually up front if i can help it. Like i said though, against your list i would deploy defensively. With two groups and so many targets you have to go for, along with splitting them up, you'll have a hard time removing them, plus all my other forces. You have a lot of points potentially not doing enough during turns, especially if i am deployed right.

Pathfinders are not a problem. Either they die, or i move to be out of range/out of sight from them. Drones must die on turn one, and so do the skyrays. But again, this is not hard to do.

Skyrays and broadsides. So you'll be using your seeker missiles on pathfinders? Your broadsides have 36in on the HYMP. They're not going to be doing much of anything. Committing those units to MLs would mean now you only have your bomb for AV killing.

WHO. CARES. Why should i target vehicles? Do i NEED to kill vehicles on my first turn?. No, i don't. I need to kill MLs, because if they survive i will probably lose. So, YES, i throw seekers at them too if i need to! This game (but from what you say, it seems you still haven't realized it yet) is a STRATEGIC game. The strategic approach is to eliminate threats while trying to preserve your units. Are vehicles a threat? No, unless they are Skyrays (that can use Markerlights). Are MLs a threat? Oh yes. Then i will focus THEM, and ignore vehicles, riptides and everything else. (btw, i can MOVE Broadsides if i am out of range from pathfinders. Even hitting on a 6, they kill 6-7 pathfinders). After MLs are gone, i have all the time in the world to kill vehicles, because the only thing that REALLY threatens me is gone.

Support'O with 6 markerlight drones hidden so you can not get him first turn, which is not hard to do by any means. Again, split forces, multiple ML sources. Impossible. "Riptide's pieplates will be saved on a 2+." Support'O with MSS with riptide. Wait let me guess. You'll kill all the MLs spread out on the board, and get the riptide and commander killed turn 1. Got it.

You know, Support Commander joined to the Riptide is the only sensible thing you said in this topic. This actually works, and can be a problem. Mmmh, maybe i will give a suit AFP so it can deal with a Pathfinder unit by itself while the rest of the unit takes care of the Riptide (yes, with 7 plasmas and 12 drones, if i use Monster Hunter instead of Tank Hunter, i can kill the riptide in 1 turn, probably the Commander too), with maybe the two missile suits to kill another PF unit. Thanks for helping me improve my list.

For me, i'll most likely have ignore cover on at least one model shooting at you. 2-3 drones with a perfect hit? How do you figure? The LoS rule? All of your units get a perfect 2d6 roll and they all get in cover?

Again, you are assuming you have MLs... i will stop trying to convince you you won't. If you ever face this list versus a decent opponent, you will see by yourself.

"on turn one i kill what is THREATENING"

Kid, you're playing a 1750 game. You're just conveniently forgetting what the other guy can bring to, and his deployment options. You have one mega death unit that CAN NOT kill everything on turn one. It's impossible. This is made even HARDER to do when you factor in infiltrators. If i infiltrate a few cheap kroot(kroot is semi-popular) in areas where you might GoL, you're entire plan hits a snag. Sure you have hit and run, but your options become limited, and your unit can easily run into problems, especially with sniper kroot. Hell, i could troll the gak out of you and just put units in areas you would 2d6 to. Then you get nothing, since you cant be within 1in of a model base.

On top of that, the heavy support you have, will either not reach, or not be effective enough with what they're armed with. Skyrays against a kroot blob? lol, what about the MLs you planned to go after with the Skyrays? And that's just with Tau.

Since i do not scatter, your Kroots will not prevent me from going where i want. I can deploy at 1" from them... and if you want to assault me, the problem is not H&R, but the fact that between Overwatch and my CC attacks, kroots will explode. And if i want to eliminate kroots with shooting, in case i don't need low-quality fire, gun drones will be more than enough (on average about 18 dead kroots on a single turn). Anyway, kroots can SLIGHTLY limit my mobility, but pose no threat whatsoever to my unit so they can be ignored on my first turn.

In terms of TAC lists. Kroot are popular for Tau. Most SM will have AV14 that you'll have a hard time popping. Chaos has those helldrakes or whatever they're called that are an issue for everyone. If you lose your skyrays you're screwed on that. Necron have their warlord who can go into a chariot with that warsycthe (S7 AP1) and can just fly over you're entire blob and get a powerful sweeping attack on every model he flies over then turn around and still have the option to shoot. Or he can go after your deployment zone and attack your skyray and broadsides. That scythe has armor bane as well. Etc etc.

Then of course, the 1750pts limit and everything they're bringing too which your single blob has to deal with somehow, with little to no backup.

All you're saying is valid in your specific meta, and/or the people you are playing against are horrible.

Kroots can be ignored. AV14 vehicles melt (some armies "have a hard time popping" them, not an army with 4 Twin-Linked, longer ranged Meltaguns on a unit that moves 24" and with Tank Hunter as well...), and they are not a threat anyway. Heldrakes are a big, big problem, if all 3 of them arrive on turn 2, they are one of the best counters for this unit, but quite some people prefer an aggressive CSM list with 15 nurgle spawns. I don't deny they can seriuosly hurt me, though. Necron Overlords on chariots are just ridiculously weak vs that unit: to fly over me you have only 12" movement, which means you were within 9" from my Fusion Blasters (= dead chariot). Even if you DO fly over me (which means i let you because i shoot at something else, and it's very unlikely i won't use a single fusion suit to kill that chariot), the sweeping hits are 3 (and they hit on a 3+), not one every model (read the rules on page 82), you would kill 2 drones, wow. And if you decide to rush to my deployment zone, you are turning the back on me, AV11 dies with missile suits alone, thank you very much. Not to mention the fact that unless you are going full aircrons, overlords are just ridiculously useless compared to DLs with wraiths.
The people i played with are surely better than you, since you are not suggesting a single things that would work with the exception of MSSS Commander + Riptide, while some of them had the right approach to face this list, they just didn't have enough resources to deal with it. But hey, i guess only bad players reach the first tables in tournaments (yes, most of my games were in tournaments. From the sound of it, you never attended one, not to mention won it).

Your argument for it isn't compelling because you're telling me it is a Swiss army knife right out the door. That all threats are neutralized immediately. I never said beat it, i simply argued that all the positives you suggested completely ignored the reality of the game. You assume you'll get perfect rolls, actually hit the "important targets", actually be able to remove enough "important targets" per shooting phase, there's a lot of what if's in this list.

That unit has enough firepower to reliably remove 3 or more targets per shooting phase. It is hard to use, because you need perfect positioning, in the hands of a kid this list will lose. But in the hands of an experienced player, it most probably won't. There is a reason why this list is being tested and will most probably be brought by multiple teams that will attend the ETC (which means the best players in all of Europe). I am sure the lists you play will be equally competitive... i would very much like to see some of your standard lists, to see how good they really are...

The Tau codex is relatively new, and Tau wasn't a big swinger in any significant way in tournaments pre 6th edition codex. You almost NEVER saw Tau on any top 10 army list from tournaments. Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if the people you're going up against don't even know what some of you're guys can even do. I wonder how many times they ask you what specific units can do and their weapon stats. I don't think it's a stretch to assume these opponents don't know how to effectively play against Tau in general, especially with this curve ball list.

This argument may be valid with inexperienced players... the majority of the people i faced knew the Tau codex as good as myself (two of them actually played Tau...). When you get to higher tables in tournament, you can be sure that everyone will perfectly know every single codex. Btw, just because i am sure you think i just played versus three pretty slow friends of mine that don't know how to play, 15 games out of 20 were in tournaments, and i faced 17 different people (i played vs 3 of them twice in test matches). And every list was a top-tier list, no fluffy stuff, only extremely competitive lists (tournaments around here are VERY competitive, people that don't play to win seldom attend them).

I assume by drones you mean, LoS the drones. Fair enough. Only problem with that is LoS has a maximum range of 6''. So let's see. you have them 2'' spread apart, that means at most, you'll have 3 drones is it to spare just for LoS wounds? Also broadsides have a 60in range with HRR. There's other units that can reach too, if we're talking Tau at least, and i have 1750pts to use. If you're not hiding your ICs somewhere you're gonna have a hard time.

Oh my god... i said i keep the FIRST drone at 2" from the Libby if i need a big JSJ movement (if i don't, i keep them closer). This does not mean i keep 2" coherency with EVERYTHING (expecially because i won't be in cover, more often than not my models touch each other). In those 4" i can fit A LOT of drones if i want to. I am not so stupid that i will leave my Libby without enough drones to guarantee he will live. Also... HRRs???? WHO THE F*** USES HRRs? They are just a ridiculously bad choice, missilesides are 1000 times better! If you DO use them, THANK YOU, you will shoot 1 shot instead of 4. As long as i have a single suit left, all my ICs are UNKILLABLE unless i WANT to allocate wounds to them. Most often than not, my entire unit will be within 6" of an IC. With a 2+ cover save.

In the case of the Riptide, Overcharged IA will ID everything under that blast (ignore cover is not hard to get with Tau). So, i hope you have enough stuff to throw away on those IC, and make sure they're never within 5in of each other.

Don't you think i know that a Riptide blast with Ignore Cover can TOTALLY melt me? The thing is, Ignore Cover will be IMPOSSIBLE to get with Tau, unless you join the Commander to the Riptide (i already said this was the only good idea you had) or have some Deep-Striking drones (in both cases, i will use Monster Hunter instead of Tank Hunter to eliminate that Riptide as soon as possible)

Only issue is that every single point you raise, i bring up an easy to field, not tailored solution to it. Every comment you make about it's merits, i point out all the flaws and all the not-so-uncommon styles of game play that people use all the time. I am finding no trouble to offer challenges to this list that doesn't require something premeditated to beat.

On top of that, the support for your blob is non-existent. You rely on a single unit to deal damage, against a large army.

Totally forgot to mention your deployment zone getting DS. Do you just kind of let that happen while your blob tries to fight the main army? Also, what happens when you fail the 2d6 thrust move and get a low roll? Hope the 3+ save holds out, against 1750pts of stuff?

Your defense of this list, and your claims, do not match the reality of the game and the way its played. While i don't doubt you've won more games than lost with this list (no way to tell for sure anyway), i do doubt it's because of the list, and I'm more inclined to believe its because the opponent. This has just dissolved into a big pissing contest though. I've made my points. Enjoy your "unbeatable" list.

See, the difference between me and you is that i speak from experience (personal, of people i know of, and of the fact ETC teams think this list is a beast). You have never even saw ONE game with or against this list. YES, i do rely on a single unit for damage (actually not true: skyrays and Broadsides do quite some damage themselves). But that unit ALONE can table most armies in 5 turns.
The 2D6 JSJ is just a bonus, useful versus mobile, offensive armies (like 18-wraiths armies, or 15-nurgle-spawns. And those armies don't shoot very much). I don't ALWAYS use it. Often i will Deep-Strike directly in cover and stay there in my assault phase (expecially because moving means i will have to take another Dangerous Terrain test). So, i will have that 2+ save versus shooting armies.
I haven't won more games than i lost. I won 20 games over 20. And other people i know of that used it had very similar results. And, for the last time, this list will be used at the ETC as well (biggest tournament in all of Europe, with all the best players). If an ETC team brings this list, it's because it is highly effective. Can you say the same about your lists? Are they top-tier lists? From what your understanding of the game is, i doubt that.

Just to conclude,, and because i promised it earlier, i will tell you what is the best way to TRY to counter this list. Ofc there are specific counters (Despairteks with Deathmarks, triple-Heldrake, multiple Rune Priests with Jaws on Capsule, deep-striking Marker drones + Riptide or Broadsides, etc.), but in general, odd as it may seem, the only real solution if you lack these units is saturation. CC is not a threat because i have huge mobility (and H&R, and massive Overwatch,and S5 attacks, etc...), running is not an option because nothing is faster than this unit, going after my troops is bad either (they start in Reserve, they hide afterwards, they Go to Ground if shot at and are protected by Broadsides, and even if you DO kill them, i just need to wipe you from the table and i will win with Secondary Objectives) your only hope is to SHOOT. Strangely enough, even if my shooting phase is ridiculously strong, and even if i save on a 2+, the real solution is to shoot massively at that unit, and hope for 1s. Ignore my troops, ignore the Broadsides, ignore the Skyrays, if you don't remove that unit you lose, and unless you have one of the very few specific counters for it, you just have to devote your entire army to the task of destroying it. I am sure you don't agree, it's easier to think you have the magic solution to deal with it with every single army, but the truth is most armies don't have ANYTHING that can deal with it single-handedly. You have to devote all your army to kill that unit, and if you can make it you win, otherwise you lose. Plain and simple.

Now, go play with your friends, and let the grownups win tournaments with this list.

While this is entertaining, I'd like to point out that I don't believe you can Jump with that unit. The rules for Jet Packs say "Jet Pack unit..." which suggests that the whole unit jumps, or doesn't. If it said models it would be easy to do.

As for the list that has taken over the discussion, why don't you use Iridium/Stim Injector? Iridium for the T5 a much as the 2+to protect from ID a bit.

As long as the unit stays in unit coherency, every model can mode independently. So you can't JSJ with the Librarian, but you can do it with crisis and drones. There is no limitation about an IC with the Infantry type joining a Jet Pack Infantry unit, if the entire unit could not JSJ it would have been specifically written. Anyway, on page 47, under Skyborne, it specifically says "model", referring explicitly to the Thrust Move as well. Moreover, it is written that a Thrust Move is equivalent to Movement (so every model at his speed while keeping coherency, and the Libby's speed is 0). Therefore, the unit can JSJ, but the Libby has to remain stationary.

The reason why i think Iridium/Stims are a waste of points is that while it would offer protection to the suit with all the toys, generally i will maneuver to keep it out of sight. This is also the reason why i don't split toys (i used to), i saw it's not that hard to completely hide a single suit and therefore keep it safe from Precision Shots. Besides, i would have to remove something else to get those points, and i really have nothing that is not absolutely necessary.

I meant more to use Iridium to tank shots that would ID. I know you have drones for that, but they won't always be available.

That was good reasoning though.