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Situation 1: A heldrake arrives from reserves and vector strikes a rhino, destroying it. At the same time, the interceptor fire from a contemptor mortis dreadnought shoots down the heldrake. Who gets first blood?

Situation 2: A IC alone and unattached is 4 inches away from a unit of Chaos Space Marines which includes a Aspiring Champion. Can the IC take lookout sir saves using the unengaged character less than 6 inches away?

Indarys wrote:
Situation 1: A heldrake arrives from reserves and vector strikes a rhino, destroying it. At the same time, the interceptor fire from a contemptor mortis dreadnought shoots down the heldrake. Who gets first blood?

The person who's turn it is decides which simultaneous action occurs first. Presumably they would select their own Heldrake's Vector Strike, and thereby get First Blood.

Indarys wrote:
Situation 2: A IC alone and unattached is 4 inches away from a unit of Chaos Space Marines which includes a Aspiring Champion. Can the IC take lookout sir saves using the unengaged character less than 6 inches away?

Look Out Sir can only pass to models in the same unit. See the main rulebook FAQ, first page, bottom left.

Pyrian wrote:

Indarys wrote:
Situation 1: A heldrake arrives from reserves and vector strikes a rhino, destroying it. At the same time, the interceptor fire from a contemptor mortis dreadnought shoots down the heldrake. Who gets first blood?

The person who's turn it is decides which simultaneous action occurs first. Presumably they would select their own Heldrake's Vector Strike, and thereby get First Blood.

Can I get a page number on this please?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also that doesn't answer my second question, as the rule in question starts after the second bullet point, "If the unit only consists of characters...."

It seems to imply any character within 6 inches can take a look out sir, it says nothing about being in the same unit.

Indarys wrote:
Also that doesn't answer my second question, as the rule in question starts after the second bullet point, "If the unit only consists of characters...."

It seems to imply any character within 6 inches can take a look out sir, it says nothing about being in the same unit.

You might want to re-read literally the first sentence of Look Out Sir on page 16...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Indarys wrote:
Also that doesn't answer my second question, as the rule in question starts after the second bullet point, "If the unit only consists of characters...."

It seems to imply any character within 6 inches can take a look out sir, it says nothing about being in the same unit.

You might want to re-read literally the first sentence of Look Out Sir on page 16...

I did. In the case a model from the same unit wishes to take it, he's allowed a Look Out Sir.

However, IF a unit consists ONLY of characters, a Look Out Sir can still be made, with one character within 6 inches taking the place of the victim.

All it says is "If unit = only characters, A lookout sir can still be made but one other character in 6 inches must take it". It does NOT specify that character must be from that unit.

Indarys wrote:
Can I get a page number on this please?

I'll look it up when I get home, but it's something really early, like page 1 or something, or maybe the first page on game sequence.

EDIT: In light of the FAQ, I don't believe that section is ever relevant. That being said, even in the old rules, you wouldn't qualify to even make the roll in the first place, nor do I think that a failure to constantly reiterate the basic rules for the section constitutes permission to ignore them.

Pyrian wrote:

Indarys wrote:
Can I get a page number on this please?

I'll look it up when I get home, but it's something really early, like page 1 or something, or maybe the first page on game sequence.

Indarys wrote:
Also that doesn't answer my second question...

Did you read the reference I gave you?

Indarys wrote:
...as the rule in question starts after the second bullet point, "If the unit only consists of characters...."

It seems to imply any character within 6 inches can take a look out sir, it says nothing about being in the same unit.

Indarys wrote:
"If the unit only consists of characters...."

Indarys wrote:
"If the unit only consists of characters...."

Indarys wrote:
...the unit...

Dude, your quote directly contradicts your assertion.

An IC is a unit consisting of only characters who may STILL make a Lookout sir roll but it is allocated to a character within 6 inches. Please learn to read before spewing passive-aggressiveness.

EDIT:

Indarys wrote:
Please learn to read...

You didn't really WRITE it until after I'd posted that, though.

Again: In light of the FAQ, I don't believe that section is ever relevant. That being said, even in the old rules, you wouldn't qualify to even make the roll in the first place, nor do I think that a failure to constantly reiterate the basic rules for the section constitutes permission to ignore them.

Pyrian wrote:

Indarys wrote:
Please learn to read before spewing passive-aggressiveness.

You completely failed to specify what rule you were trying to abuse until after I'd written that.

I was trying to "use" the rule that allows a IC to use characters within 6 inches to take look out sirs for him. It's pretty clear what I'm referring to from both the text and the question asked. It would have been nice if you'd taken the time to read and comprehend it without trying to "own" me with big bold text and underline, but I'll forgive you this time. <3

Simultaneous events can be found on page 9, it highlights that the player whom turn it currently is decides the order of events. That player is obviously going to chose to resolve the action which gives him the victory point. This would be to do the heldrake first, and then the interceptor roll which, at this point, he wouldn't know if it takes out his Heldrake or not. To do it the other way around not only denies the victory point, but would also open an argument that the heldrake couldn't do a vector strike as it is no longer on the table.

Page 16 has the look out sir rules and the very first line states that the model taking the shot has to be from the same unit as the character being wounded. It goes ahead to state the same fact, that the model taking the wound has to be in the same unit, as it outlines how a look out sir roll is done. As you follow this sequence of events to resolve a look out sir roll, you have to select a model that is already in the same unit as the one in which wounds are being allotted. If you select any model from other units then you have not filled the requirement to make a look out sir roll, and therefore can not use look our sirs.

The part you are quoting doesn't change the requirement for the model intercepting the shot to be in the same unit as the character being wounded. It is simply highlighting that some units consist of more then one character, and could even be made up of nothing but characters. This is to point out that the model being selected to take the wound does not have to be a 'normal' troop, but can also be other characters that might exist in the unit if that is your desire. It also goes on to explain that any characters intercepting the shot are denied any further look out sir rolls, as some people would argue the wound down a chain of characters to a model that wasn't originally in 6 inches if given the chance.

So sorry, the rules clearly states that the model intercepting the wound is required to be in the same unit to begin with.

Indarys wrote:
It would have been nice if you'd taken the time to read and comprehend it without trying to "own" me with big bold text and underline...

My answer was still correct; you don't get to ignore the highlighted context just because it isn't repeated ad infinitum.

Indarys wrote:
It's pretty clear what I'm referring to from both the text and the question asked.

It was not in slightest bit clear what you're trying to pull until here:

Indarys wrote:
However, IF a unit consists ONLY of characters, a Look Out Sir can still be made, with one character within 6 inches taking the place of the victim.

All it says is "If unit = only characters, A lookout sir can still be made but one other character in 6 inches must take it". It does NOT specify that character must be from that unit.

JinxDragon wrote:
Simultaneous events can be found on page 9, it highlights that the player whom turn it currently is decides the order of events. That player is obviously going to chose to resolve the action which gives him the victory point. This would be to do the heldrake first, and then the interceptor roll.

Page 16 has the look out sir rules. The very first line states that the model taking the shot has to be from the same unit as the character being wounded. The part you are quoting doesn't change the requirement for the model intercepting the shot to be in the same unit as the character being wounded. It is simply highlighting that some units consist of only characters and this fact does not change any of the rules concerning look out sirs. It also goes on to explain that any characters intercepting the shot are denied any further look out sir rolls, as some people would argue the wound down a chain of characters to a model that wasn't originally in 6 inches if given the chance.

So sorry, the rules clearly states that the model intercepting the wound is required to be in the same unit to begin with.

Actually, the rules do not state anything of the sort. They are very specific--If a model consists of only characters, they may still make a lookout sir using a character within 6 inches. That's simple as it can be. No where does it state "The characters must be in the same unit."

It states it twice in the look our sir rules!

First in the opening sentence and then again in the order of events. In order to make a look our sir roll in the first place you have to follow that order of events or else you do not have permission to even attempt a look out sir. Just because they have not repeated it a third time in the next paragraph does not automatically remove the restrictions already put in place not once, but twice, by the previous sections of the rules. The lack of mentioning it a third time does not give you permission to go back to that order of events and ignore what is a very clear restriction stated within.

All it says is If a unit consists of ONLY CHARACTERS they may STILL make a look out sir roll.

The rule is not "You may make a Look Out Sir roll if you are in a unit with other models"

It is "You may make a Look Out Sir roll if you are in a unit with other models" and also "You may make a Look Out Sir roll if you are in a unit of only characters"

They are not bullet points of the original rule. They are two separate paragraphs under the title "Look Out Sir" rules.

I think you're a little confused mate. There actually has to be at least one other member in the unit before you can attempt a LOS roll. You cannot LOS to a separate unit.

An example of a unit that is 'only characters' is a Space Marine Captain that has joined a Librarian. They are allowed to make LOS rolls for each other, because they are in the same unit.

Re look out sir. The page 16 material makes it clear right up front that you need another model from the same unit within 6". That still applies to the paragraph at the end. If you're going to argue that the preceding material (where it says "same unit") doesn't pass to the second paragraph, then there's also no mechanic specified in that last paragraph (ie 4+) to move the wound. It's implied throughout that the same rules as above apply (ie that a 4+ allows the wound to pass, and that it has to be the same unit).

Take not at the s on the end of character, as in more then one character in the unit. This is because there is the possibility of having a unit that consists of nothing but characters. All that paragraph is stating is that you do not lose the ability to use look out sir simply because there is no "non-character" models to intercept the shot. It even states you can substitute another character instead of the "erstwhile victim" if the test is successful.

For the test to be successful you would need to follow the rules stated under the 'how to make a look out sir attempt' part of this section, which includes the limitation that only models in the same unit can be selected to take the wound.

Indarys wrote:
All it says is If a unit consists of ONLY CHARACTERS they may STILL make a look out sir roll.

Exactly.

If a unit consists of ONLY CHARACTERS.

AkA the unit has 2 or more characters in it, they still can make Look Out sir rolls.
"When a Wound (or unsaved'Wound) is allocated to one of your characters, and there is another model from the same unit within.." (16)

Clearly you can only use Look out sir to pass wounds to members of the same unit.