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I am a CSM player and the person I usually play is an Ork player. Every time I play against him I lose. Please help me. The armies I usually consist of some of the following
x20 Khorne - Plasma Pistol x1, IoW, VotLW, GoM -
x8 Chosen - Power Fist x1, Power Axe x1, Power Maul x1, a pair of Lightning Claws x2, MoN, VotLW, IoD, GoM -
x8 Chosen - Power Fist x1, Power Axe x1, Power Maul x1, a pair of Lightning Claws x2, MoN, VotLW, IoD, GoM -
A couple random maxed out HQ choices
x10 Cultists - Flamer x1, MoN -
x10 Cultists - Heavy Stubber x1, MoN, Autoguns x8, Shotgun -

Or replace both cultist squads with

x20 Cultists - Flamer x1 Autoguns x8, MoN, Shotgun -

We would need to know what your opponent plays before giving any good advice. But I can say there is nothing to fear from your list as an ork player. No mobility, no real anti hord, and no range. The ork player should just sit back and shoot you as you get near and then charge you to wipe out the remainder.

Yeah... I'm the Ork player. And I normally take max out my Lootas, 2 huge mobs of Slugga Choppa boyz, some Meganobz, some normal Nobz, Shokk Attack Gun, Ghazghkull Thraka, and a Looted Wagon with a Boomgun.
Lotz and Lotz of DAKKA WAAAAAAAGH

Bring two heldrakes and obliterators, you'll squash him Luke a bug

Heldrakes

DP with Black Mace or Lord with Black Mace on bike with MoN in a unit of Spawn with MoN

Defilers/Oblits/Maulerfiends.

Take a land raider and rinos to really mess up the Orks, take a sorcerer as well. Orks can't handle any psychic attacks and forcing them to take 3d6 test and take a wound for every point they fail will wreak their day.

Also, go more shooting - they are probably taking a lot of lootas - if they have more than 10 in the squad they can't go to ground, Killing 8 in a turn is easy and then they will probably route.

Use a lot of instant kill weapons, only Thraka does not insta-gib.

Thanks for your help guys.

@sleg I know I like taking sorcerers and once I used Arhiman and I gave him psychic Shriek. It was devastating. Unfortunetly he was shot shortly after my first Psychic Shriek

Beware of taking light armor vehicles, lootas eat them and lootas have a 48 range, rokkits as well. Conventional wisdom has small units of lootas, 5 or so, which I use, because it creates a target priority issue, only 5 is a difficult justification of killing fire, but remains a potent threat for killing transports and light armor tanks/speeders/etc. Do I really want to drop a pie plate on just 5 orks, albeit lootas, or do I try to whittle down the 30strong mobs moving into charge range...

AV14 has always given orks issue, we have only 2 real answers to it, warboss pk and deffrollaz, (SAG as well, but it's rarely taken), unless he's bringing allies, Land Raiders are a good plan.

The problem being that we're both new and have no vehicles...

If you want to win against Orks without being a dick (re: helldrakes), we're very, very weak to template weapons and armour 14. If you can get cheap small blast templates en mass you can grind away the slugga boys faster than they can advance.

Problem with your list is that its all stuff trying to fight the Orks where they are strongest ~ our infantry ~ and your only template is on a very weak cultist unit.

The key weakness of your opponent is slugga boys on foot. Not the strongest choice around and probably makes up the bulk of his list. Put flamers on anything that can survive loota and shoota fire (av 14 or reasonably large MEQ squads) and those boyz is gone

Personally, I have only played 2 games against Chaos (Nurgle/Khorne both times)

I would suggest you first determine what kind of basic strategy he is using: Shooting, CC or a mix. Except for a mob of Shootas (with Nob and PK) in a Battlewagon, Orks don't have units that are good at everything. CSM however are pretty good generalists. Play to your opponents weakness.

Orks are tought, but not against Bolters. Their lack of armour makes them bolter bait.
Ork Nobs are pretty good at CC, the average boy is not. 'Zerkers, T5 anything (Nurgle) and even regular CSM with BP and CC can hold their own and smack down mobs of Ork Boyz.

As a general rule of thumb, keeping close combat going on for more then one turn is useful for an unit that is designed for CC. Ork armies find multiple assault very useful - an Ork Mob charges against two units. If they have a LOT of attacks, they concentrate as many swings as possible on one unit so the other unit survives. If the Ork mob has some attacks, they split up ~evenly so 1-2 enemy squads 'survive' to take and pass their Leadership. By staying in combat that means the orks are safe from your shooting.

A good way to counter this is:
- keep your units spread out or have a buffer line in front so that the Ork mob cannot assault 2 units. If they are going to hit, make it easy enough for them to wipe out the unit they hit in their first turn, allowing you to shoot them in your turn.
- reduce the approaching mob by shooting it, but you don't have to wipe them out. If they take enough losses, they won't have enough bodies left to make multiple assaults or survive/win a multiple assault.
- Your average CSM is very hardy compared to an ork boy. Don't consider challenges as a bad thing, as it means the Power Klaw won't be popping multiple CSMs.. only the leader.
- Remember that Nobs have more then 1 wound, so a champion with a power Axe wont kill a Nob. But a Nob with a Power Klaw will kill your champion. Deck your champion out for mutual annihilation with the nob, or don't bother.


On the flip side, Ork BS is horrible, but the Codex makes up for that by having plenty of shots at good/great strength. It makes shooty Orks a viable strategy.
- They have various AP2 and AP3 shooting options, so relying on your armour save isn't safe. Consider cover, and consider taking out their AP3/2 gunners if they are few.
- Orks dont have much in the way of ignoring cover, and what they do have is expensive (flash gitz) or fragile (Burnas).
- The shoota has a short range. If they get close enough they can put out a tremendous volume of fire power and that can translates into a dozen+ wounds to save on 2+/3+, but if the shoota is kept away that damage potential is unused.

Lootas:
They have great range and strength, so light AV (and aircraft) are easily destroyed by them. My rule of thumb is 10 Lootas can kill an AV11/12 transport each turn. AV 12 walkers with 3-4 HP will take 2 turns, or 20 Lootas in 1 turn.
A Heldrake sounds awesome, but as an Ork player with Lootas I dont fear heldrakes. Three will give me pause.
- They have low Leadership! and cannot natively get a boss pole. Inflict losses on them and they run off the board.
- Even when babysat by a Big Mek with Boss Pole, that doesn't change their toughness and armour saves.

AV 14.
As others have said, AV 14 is something we have problems with as our only reliable counter is a Warboss with Power Klaw. Deff Rola is nice, but bringing that battlewagon close enough to tank shock is not something we can rely on.

Range.
Lootas and Lobas are our long range guns. A lot of what we have is 24" or less. Those in the 36" range window are few, and given Ork/Grot BS, that usually means not enough shots are available to hurt MEQs pass 24" and few still past 36".

Agree with everything but
>various AP3/AP2 shooty

I dare you to find me an army with *less* AP3 and AP2 shooting than the Orks. And I mean good shooting, stuff people would actually take.

We have rokkits (trash), kannons, zapp guns (TRASH), Flash Gits (TRAAAAASH) and the SAG Mek (unreliable and takes up an HQ, still love the guy though).

So pretty much just kannons, which are still only 3-9 shots per turn for the whole army depending on how many you take, and SAG Meks which cost us our HQ slots. The rest is pure crap

 Dakkamite wrote:
Agree with everything but
>various AP3/AP2 shooty

I dare you to find me an army with *less* AP3 and AP2 shooting than the Orks. And I mean good shooting, stuff people would actually take.

We have rokkits (trash), kannons, zapp guns (TRASH), Flash Gits (TRAAAAASH) and the SAG Mek (unreliable and takes up an HQ, still love the guy though).

So pretty much just kannons, which are still only 3-9 shots per turn for the whole army depending on how many you take, and SAG Meks which cost us our HQ slots. The rest is pure crap

Rokkits on Killa Kans was, until 6th, perfectly viable, however now walkers are terrible, that's out the wazoo. TankBustas: all rokkits in a vehicle, might work.

My favorite method for taking out terminators was a full unit of burna boyz in a battlewagon, force them to fail armor by weight of dice.

AP3 has never bothered me, I am in my comfort zone taking on regular MEQ, I usually just move around terminator armor until I've eaten everything else then take them on last, or in entirely terminator armies, bury them with weight of dice.

Also, been having fun lately with looted Boomguns, AP3 large blast.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Agree with everything but
>various AP3/AP2 shooty

I dare you to find me an army with *less* AP3 and AP2 shooting than the Orks. And I mean good shooting, stuff people would actually take.

We have rokkits (trash), kannons, zapp guns (TRASH), Flash Gits (TRAAAAASH) and the SAG Mek (unreliable and takes up an HQ, still love the guy though).

So pretty much just kannons, which are still only 3-9 shots per turn for the whole army depending on how many you take, and SAG Meks which cost us our HQ slots. The rest is pure crap

I don't know if there is an army with less, but that is besides the point.
There is enough AP3 available in the Ork army that is viable (Boomgun, kill kannon, big gunz, Icarus) that Marines sitting in the open and relying on power armour to save them is not a good idea. I don't use it as I prefer weight of number as my means of MEQ popping, but it is something I considered.

We don't have much in the way of useful AP2, but the opening post isnt about TAC Ork lists, but about marrowick's friend's Orks. If I was making a non-mech Ork list against non-mech MEQs, I'd have Zapps as terminators squashers. With Grot BS and ammo runts, they are reliable enough.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Agree with everything but
>various AP3/AP2 shooty

I dare you to find me an army with *less* AP3 and AP2 shooting than the Orks. And I mean good shooting, stuff people would actually take.

We have rokkits (trash), kannons, zapp guns (TRASH), Flash Gits (TRAAAAASH) and the SAG Mek (unreliable and takes up an HQ, still love the guy though).

So pretty much just kannons, which are still only 3-9 shots per turn for the whole army depending on how many you take, and SAG Meks which cost us our HQ slots. The rest is pure crap

I prefer Kannons over Lobbas any day and only because you can switch between a single shot and a blast template. the 4 other weapons that are worth taking is the Defgun (Str 7) assault 3, Burnas, Big Shootas assault 3 and the Dakkagun (Str 5) Twin Link assault 3. To add to your list of worthless weapons, Sluggas, Grot Blasta, and KMB.
The weapons need a high assault, twin-linked, or both - most Orks miss 2/3 of the time.
This of course lowers our options to Bikes, Lootas, and Big Gunz.

Yeah I find MEQ amongst the easiest opponents. Just sayin we don't have much shooting that *ignores* their armour.

Edit: I ran the mathhammer and Lobbas are better than Kannons at hitting partially covered Manticores. And of course, much better at hitting completely covered ones. Not to mention that they bypass stuff like the aegis entirely and can barrage snipe. Thats enough for me to consider them the better choice overall ~ corner castle armies can suck it when you bring three batteries of these

 Dakkamite wrote:

Edit: I ran the mathhammer and Lobbas are better than Kannons at hitting partially covered Manticores. And of course, much better at hitting completely covered ones. Not to mention that they bypass stuff like the aegis entirely and can barrage snipe. Thats enough for me to consider them the better choice overall ~ corner castle armies can suck it when you bring three batteries of these

I've tried some out and some kannons out, the lobbas performed exceptionally well against a castling necron army and I think the extra utility you list above is more than worth the loss of the single shot v small template kannon.

In my meta Terminators are everywhere. Almost every army I face as a bunch of two plus saves. I never leave home without my Zapp gunz no matter their strength they are always ap2 and fired by grots. My enemies spend half the game trying to kill them while I am busy winning.

Which do you guys think is better?

Chaos Lord - Terminator Armor, Combi-Flamer, The Black Mace, Mark of Tzeentch

Or

Chaos Lord - Bike, Sigil of Corruption, The Black Mace, Plasma Pistol, Mark of Tzeentch and this one is among a squad of 5 bikers.

Depends how your gonna use him. If he's just there to catch the green tide and beat them down, terminator him. But if you want him to do anything else, the speed of the bikes is just fantastic

If you're putting him on a bike, give him nurgle spawn to run with.

T6 spawn are fairly cool for a buffer unit. You may also want to consider making the biker lord a nurgle lord, pushing his T to 6 also.

Do bikes affect your toughness? I don't see any modifications noted. Anyways that takes away his 3/3 save which was the whole point.

 marrowick wrote:
Do bikes affect your toughness? I don't see any modifications noted. Anyways that takes away his 3/3 save which was the whole point.

Its in the main rulebook under unit type bikes, any model that takes a bike as an upgrade gains +1T.

The 3++ is pretty nice but so is T6 -- consider your opponents warboss with klaw can instakill your T5 tzeentch lord, he can't do that to the nurgle version. Against Orks the T6 is superior as it helps against most all of their shots and attacks (making it one less dice pip to wound vs all the s3-s7), the 3++ only helps against a few items (rokkits and klaws for the most part).

I think the kicker here though is the cult unlock. Plague marines as troops is pretty stellar. 1ksons as troops is pretty meh (especially against orks but in total as well!).

Also don't waste points on the plasma pistol. They've been overpriced for so long its kind of funny.

Finally you are wasting waaaaay too many points on cultist and chosen upgrades. Its time to start investing in the goods that chaos has to offer that you like (pimp lords and princes, cheap lvl3 sorcerers, oblits, havocs, helldrakes, spawn, bikes). Chaos doesn't work like orks -- your opponent can just take a ton of boyz and be in decent shape. You can't rely on your troops to get the job done like he can.

Well we usually play 2000 Pts double roster so how does this look.

x10 CSM - Flamer, Missile Launcher, Combi-Bolter (C), GoM (C), MoN, IoV
x10 CSM - Flamer, Missile Launcher, Combi-Bolter (C), GoM (C), MoN, IoV
x20 CSM - Meltagun, Autocannon, Combi-Bolter (C), GoM (C), MoN, IoD, Enchanced Warriors (by FB)
x1 Obliterator - MoN
x1 Obliterator - MoN
x1 Obliterator - MoN
x4 Bikers - Flamer x2, MoN, IoD,
Fabius Bile
Arhiman
Chaos Lord - Bike, Sigil of Corruption, MoN, The Black Mace, Combat Familiar
Sorcerer - Bike, Sigil of Corruption, MoN, Mastery Lv 3, Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Spell Familiar

Chaos Space Marines benefit greatly from being able to take x2 special weapons on squads of ten. It allows them to move and shoot and guarantees some success when trying to pop armor with a meltagun.

Just my opinion, but CSM squads of 10 should always have x2 flamers, or x2 meltagun, maybe x2 plasma guns but it's too expensive compared their Space Wolves counterpart.

I feel like the sheer point value of each squad you bring to the table might be one of your weakness's that your friend exploits.

In a 2000 point match fielding over x50 MEQ shouldn't be out of the question.

I think dropping the mark of nurgle idea off your troops and fielding A LOT more nurgle bikers might benefit you a lot. It's a super cheap T6 model on the bike.

Drop the gift of mutation and if you decide to attach any of your HQ to any of the csm, drop the IoV.

Back in the day, I would run rhino with havoc missile launchers and the small blast, S5 ap4 would easily kill ork boyz. Consider that if you plan on being able to mobilize your 10 man csm squads and brave enough to give first blood away.

I would break up the 20 man squad into 10 man to get 2 more special weapons. Koski i right about taking dual spec wpn. Do not be fooled into thinking bolters can fire beyond 24" just because there is a 48" gun in the squad.

I would run pairs of oblits in larger games. Later on you can lump the 3 obits into one squad to get more heavy choices.

Koski wrote:Just my opinion, but CSM squads of 10 should always have x2 flamers, or x2 meltagun, maybe x2 plasma guns but it's too expensive compared their Space Wolves counterpart.

I think dropping the mark of nurgle idea off your troops and fielding A LOT more nurgle bikers might benefit you a lot. It's a super cheap T6 model on the bike.

I would do that but I don't have very many more bikes.

Filch wrote:Drop the gift of mutation and if you decide to attach any of your HQ to any of the csm, drop the IoV.

I would break up the 20 man squad into 10 man to get 2 more special weapons. Koski i right about taking dual spec wpn. Do not be fooled into thinking bolters can fire beyond 24" just because there is a 48" gun in the squad.

I would run pairs of oblits in larger games. Later on you can lump the 3 obits into one squad to get more heavy choices.

Okay I'll try that. I think I'll drop the bike on my Sorcerer and put him with them. Yeah that would help I just wanted that a big squad so I would benefit more from Enchanced warriors if they were a bigger squad. I was thinking of that but I only have and there is Divid and Conquer.

I would drop the heavy weapons from the csm squads, and take another special weapon as the others have noted. If you really want some missile launchers or the like, take havocs and throw in a few extra guys to take wounds and provide some extra shooting, although nothing is terrible about having oblit's on the field. Beware, oblit's are slow and purposeful and if I remember correctly they can't fire overwatch as a result, so I would try and avoid using them up front.

2 unique HQ's? Isn't that like 400 points? You can fit a good number more guys in with some of those points. Both do have some nice things to add, but I don't know if it out weighs what you are giving up.

 marrowick wrote:
I am a CSM player and the person I usually play is an Ork player. Every time I play against him I lose. Please help me. The armies I usually consist of some of the following
x20 Khorne - Plasma Pistol x1, IoW, VotLW, GoM -
x8 Chosen - Power Fist x1, Power Axe x1, Power Maul x1, a pair of Lightning Claws x2, MoN, VotLW, IoD, GoM -
x8 Chosen - Power Fist x1, Power Axe x1, Power Maul x1, a pair of Lightning Claws x2, MoN, VotLW, IoD, GoM -
A couple random maxed out HQ choices
x10 Cultists - Flamer x1, MoN -
x10 Cultists - Heavy Stubber x1, MoN, Autoguns x8, Shotgun -

Or replace both cultist squads with

x20 Cultists - Flamer x1 Autoguns x8, MoN, Shotgun -

I am going to back track a bit and work with what you have listed here as a base.

Khorne Berzerkers are OK. They will clobber boyz if they can get the charge off, but they are pretty slow. You really need to buy them 2 Land Raiders in your Heavy Support Slots. 2 Land Raiders with Dirge Casters, Dozer Blades, Extra Armour, and even Destroyer Blades if you are feeling Frisky. With these you can shove your Zerkers safely into close combat with the orks, and the Dirge Casters prevents his shoota boyz and Loota Boyz from taking any overwatch. As has been stated below, Orks have a lot of trouble with Land Raiders from long range, and this could just be the ticket your Zerkers need to get unscathed into enemy lines. More on the Topic of Zerkers, avoid Veterans of the Long War on them . Vets is only really worth it for +1 leadership and Zerkers are already fearless, and in your case its totally worthless because it doesn't do anything vs orks. If you want Hatred grab Kharn, he hates EVERYBODY.

Also you should be running a Khorne Lord. That will bring your Zerkers into Troops which will increase your flexibility in objective based games. It also helps that the Axe of Blind Fury is a bad ass weapon. So for this slot I would recommend a Lord on a Jugger with the Axe, and an accompanying squad of spawn. These are fast, they are deadly, and there is very little in the ork book that can stand up to them. The other option is a Terminator Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury, or Kharn in one of the Land Raiders. Kharn is a pretty cool dude, and can add a lot of killing power- and hatred!- to a zerker squad. If you play large games there isn't any reason you cannot run both Kharn and the Jugger Lord. For reference, if you can catch Gazzy outside his WAAAGH, aside from that turn where he has a 2++. A Jugger Lord or Kharn will tear him apart.

Rhinos aren't great vs loota spam, but they can be a nice place to bunker small cultist squads, and you can buy them for your Zerkers even though they will deploy in Land Raiders. Definitely don't prioritize these like Land Raiders, Spawn, or Khorne Characters however. Speaking of cultists, try to avoid giving them upgrades. MoN is far too expensive when you could just be bringing more cultists! I would keep them 10 guys w/ a flamer, and maybe a shotgun. The flamer is worth it for when things get close, and some overwatch proteciton.

Chosen are pretty poor. They are way to expensive, and with close combat upgrades are simply worse than Terminators for the same cost. I would leave them at home, and just use the models as Aspiring Champions in your various squads.

As everybody's favorite mindless drone Dalymiddleburro pointed out, a Heldrake will help. But bear in mind the Heldrake is comparatively weaker vs orks, as it would much prefer to be wasting 16ppm Space Marines than 6 ppm Orks.

Obliterators are awesome. For your heavy support and keeping with the Khorne theme, I would go for 2 Land Raiders and a Squad of 3 Nurgle Obliterators with Veterans of the Long War for leadership 9.

Khorne should be able to stomp those Orks real good, you just need to develop ways to get into close combat with him. I think a pair of Land Raiders and some Spawn + Jugger Lord are just what the Doctor ordered for your collection.

 akaean wrote:

As everybodies favorite mindless drone Dalymiddleburro pointed out, a Heldrake will help. But bear in mind the Heldrake is comparatively weaker vs orks, as it would much prefer to be wasting 16ppm Space Marines than 6 ppm Orks.

Exalted!

also, if you plan to use a 20 man csm squad for enhanced infiltrated warrior, I suggest you take MoS and IoE to give them feel no pain.