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Hey Dakka! I had massive success in 5th with my jetseer council and mass dragons list, with reserved bikes for scoring late game, but it appears the days of the Eldar psyker deathstar may be numbered in a competitive setting. However, bikes are amazing now, so I'm looking to repurpose all of my bikes and make them the mainstay of my army. My local meta has a solid mix of styles but with more deathstar units (people wanted to compete with the jetseer council rather than play around it) and a lack of fliers, but that is changing quickly in 6th. This is a TAC list focusing on high mobility, redundancy, and Eldar trickery.

Illic Nightspear, warlord (split fire trait)

Autarch, bike, laser lance, mandiblaster, mantle of the laughing god

4 x 6 Windrider Jetbikes, all with max cannons

3 x 5 Fire Dragons, all with exarch and fast shot, all in SL serpents with chin cannons and holo fields

4 dark reapers, with starshot missiles (not on exarch), exarch has fast shot and night fighting

Aegis Defense Line, with quad gun

Night Spinner with holo fields

1997 points

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Standard Illic + Reaper + ADL combo. Illic confers shrouded to the squad for 3+ cover, and gives the exarch split shot, who shoots the quad gun 5 times at BS5 (and yes, a 5 shot quad gun is still better than a 2 shot icarus). The rest of the squad shoots 3 krak missiles and the distort sniper shot at whatever they like within 48". The reapers give Illic S&P, night fighting and ignoring jink saves, so they're a nice combo and fill out my AA needs along with plenty of leftover firepower, but at 409 points for the lot I feel they may underperform. Time will tell, I'm flexible with this.

Suicide Autarch is there to disrupt transports and artillery, packing 1 shot and 5 melee hits on the charge for 6 x S6 AP3 hits, plus hammer of wrath and mandiblaster if he hits infantry. This was initially my warlord until I got Illic, and is removable if I find a better way to spend 145 points, but I find they're great value for the general chaos they can cause. Really nasty against Lootas and the like too, especially with hit and run, and anything that doesn't ignore cover is effectively not a threat.

Jetbikes provide all the anti-horde and MC I'll ever need. 24 cannon shots at 24", and when safe to do so, a further 32 TL catapult shots, all with Bladestorm. The army is built around their mobility and firepower, and I don't have much room to move on these units.

Fire Dragons got a little more expensive, but a lot tougher (both behind serpent shields and with 3+ armour). Bringing exarchs with fast shot for good value, the old one-shot-wonders of 5th ed have gone from 180 points to 275 points for a 'standard' kit, but they bring a lot more stayability and the serpents are far more dangerous. Keeping the shields up for one turn while I boost up with 3+ cover saves (holo + flat out jink is 3+ here, right?), delivering the dragons and unloading the TL S6/7 pain is going to make these tanks something that cannot be ignored, while being very safe before they unload their dragons. The dragons themselves have battle focus and fleet to get into melta range that much easier now, so I'm expecting their point-and-delete effectiveness to only improve come the new codex.

The night spinner is pretty much just my leftover points. I want him to sit back for 1-2 turns and find targets of opportunity, then from turn 3 use him to rout out any GTG troops camping objectives with the torrent weapon, if any exist. I've been a huge fan of spinners, and although they've lost their positional advantage in the new codex (difficult and dangerous terrain was great to limit their team's mobility while you can still go 12"+ every turn) I'm willing to try one out for the S8 flexible yet accurate firing it provides. I can switch it to a Prism if needed with some minor point juggling, however I don't need a prism at all in this list. More than happy to swap this out if I see a better way to spend the points.

Overall, I can bring to bear:
Long range (48"+): 3 starshot missiles, Illic's sniper, 5 shot quad gun, 3d6+3 serpent shield shots, doomweaver
Mid range (18"-36": 24 cannon shots from bikes, 24+3d6 S6/7 TL shots from serpents (with shields)
Short range (< 18": Autarch laser lance S6, 32 TL catapults from bikes, 18 melta shots at BS4/5 in safe transports with battle focus/fleet.

18 melta shots should deal with any armour that I need to deal with, and the missiles, sniper and quad gun can deal with the rest from range. 67 shots with Bladestorm in the list will carve through anything with a Wounds characteristic, with an average of 61 S6+ shots per turn at 24"+ for light armour.

I feel the list can handle almost any variety that comes its way, short of mass fliers or mass land raiders that can stop my dragons, but neither of those lists exist in my meta for now. Assault armies without fast assault transports will never reach me reliably, horde armies can be split up and chipped away safely, most mech will be stuck between getting too close to the dragons or being whittled down by mass S6 shooting (and serpent shields ignore jinks with their S7 shots).

Armies with large amounts of Ignore Cover weapons will be my downfall, since every single unit will have a cover save every turn and relies on it to survive. The Autarch is 100% Helldrake food, but hopefully the quad gun and massed shooting will bring them down (I think our CSM player only has 2 in his list but wants a third, but he is not my biggest concern). Our Tau player has a 'old' list and won't be getting many of the new toys any time soon, so Riptides aren't a concern. My toughest opponents (in skill and resources available to field a strong 6th edition list) are Orks, IG, Dark Angels and Necrons.

Comments and criticisms welcome. The army has a bit of fluff behind it but moreso its a competitive list with a theme of high mobility, so please don't suggest dropping a squad of dragons to pick up swooping hawks unless you have really good justification for it. I'm looking at Warp Spiders and wondering if getting them will work better than the Illic + Reapers + ADL combo, but I've never used them even in 5th and don't own the models, so they would have to be amazing to find a place in this list.

I don´t think that static firebases like the Reapers work in an Saim-Hann army. Also I really don´t like Illic.

You called the Autarch a suicide unit, but I feel like he has much more to offer than that. The presence off a unit that is almost unkillable by shooting at it and packs a punch in melee while threatening tanks arround it has so much potential.

 Khe-Loc wrote:
I don´t think that static firebases like the Reapers work in an Saim-Hann army. Also I really don´t like Illic.
.

I agree with both statements.

Illic will hit every turn but only wound on half of them, meaning 3.5 wounds a game, that can be "look out sir"ed. So much potential with him but they really missed the boat.

Reapers are to static. You don't need an aegis in this list either, your serpents are good enough anti air unless you run into a flying circus. You want all your models to be highly mobile. I would drop Illic, Reapers, Aegis and the Night spinner and see what else you could put in.


Things that come to mind - Warp Spiders (fast, quicker then jetbikes in all honesty), Prisims/Night Spinners, War Walkers just with cannons wouldn't be bad either.

Starting from the top:

Illic is meh, I can see what you're going for. But for 5 S7 twin linked gaks at one target and 3 S8 + a sniper shot at another target for 400 points is a HUGE investment for the pay off even with the 2+ cover save. That's a 5th of your army for not a lot of killing power.

Laughing Autarch is good, but not as tough as you'd think particularly if your opponent has a lot of S8 shots or ignores cover. So be careful with him.

Jet bikes are good I'd consider a few Warlocks for a 3+ jink going to 2+ when flatout just helps with objective grabbing. If you get the +1/-1 armour save you are in a great place. Biking Terminators are pretty good but turning your opponents Terminators into marines is hilarious!

Dragons are good but many people find that Wraiths do the same job now that the points difference isn't huge and definitely stick around! Consider Vectored Engines on the Serpents so you can jump out the back and then it can pivot to show its front :-) also the chin cannon isn't a necessity. Whilst it is still a decent option most of the time you'll be firing your shield and SL so not the cannon or you'll be flatout for that 3+ cover.

Reapers are underwhelming. Warp Spiders do a similar job much better without forcing you to anchor a massive chunk of your army. This unit really isn't working for you in an effective way and doesn't fit the speed of the rest of the army.

Night spinner suffers from not being War Walkers or Wraithlords or Fire Prisms which are the only HS options you should ever take.

Also what is you plan against flyers? 1 quad gun isn't going to cut it at all.

Depending on the points, Vaul's is only 90 points so that is another HS options. The Wraithknight (base) I think can be competitive if you build the army to support it.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the ADL combo. I think more serpents or just warp spiders would fill the role better. My old list was almost entirely bikes and grav tanks and throwing in reapers etc is a step backwards.

I'm not impressed by warlocks in the new codex, at all. Ld 8 means getting psychic powers off completely unhindered is close to a 50-50, and our tyranid player likes to run Deathleaper for the -3Ld too. I'd avoid psykers completely as it stands if I can since they are unreliable both in access to powers, and casting said powers. And if adding a conceal warlock to a bike group takes it from 122 points to 172 for one extra body that is no better (or 5 points for a spear, but that isn't what they're designed to do in this list), I'd rather just add more dakka. Instead of a warlock in each bike squad, I could get 10 warp spiders, and that is just not even a contest for points.

The night spinner fills a long range S8 damage source, which I am lacking in this list. Hitting side armour, it will be nice against manticore squadrons and the like, of which there are a few in my meta. I don't see how Fire Prisms are so much better, though I can appreciate S9 AP1 lance, I can't appreciate 125 points plus upgrades for a one-shot wonder. Maybe I'm too harsh on them, but they feel too hit-or-miss in a game of hull points.

I can run the autarch, 4x6 bikes, 3x5 dragons in serpents, 2 prisms, a night spinner with holos, and 7 warp spiders with an exarch and fast shot for 1996. I lose the ADL combo to pick up 2 prisms and 7 spiders. Much more mobile, and the grav tanks add some needed toughness, but it doesn't feel ideal. I'm almost tempted to run Vypers again, but that feels silly.

one prism is never a good idea but 2 is pretty good. 1 of them will pen a land raider half the time at LONG range. Also while warlocks have iffy psychic powers farseers are pretty reliable (although I can't believe they gave csm re-rolls and not eldar) and can guide 2 units a turn. If you NEED that hit, guide the prism

But if I were to take a farseer, I'd need somewhere to camp him, so probably some rangers, then give him a longrifle to be effective. Then he needs to sit at the back with the prisms, guiding one and prescience the other... suddenly I'm back to a fairly static firebase with a few big guns, some sniper shots, and it costs 400-odd points. Might as well put Illic, the ADL and reapers back in.

I just don't see the value in bringing a farseer to guide prisms, especially in a list where I have 3 squads of dragons with exarchs. What I need is anti air, and don't think any grav tanks in the heavy slot are the answer, and neither is the farseer. Warp Spiders, I believe, are the best hull-point-for-cost unit in the codex for anti air, ahead of even flakk platforms.

Warp Spiders, I believe, are the best hull-point-for-cost unit in the codex for anti air, ahead of even flakk platforms

They certainly are if guided by a Farseer. Hence why he's a good addition, but needs a jetbike to be able to cast and stay mobile.

 FlingitNow wrote:
They certainly are if guided by a Farseer. Hence why he's a good addition, but needs a jetbike to be able to cast and stay mobile.

Quite the opposite. If you spend 115 points for a jetbike farseer, in order to guide a ~200 point squad, that is not points well spent. Against fliers it increases their effectiveness considerably, but against all other targets it takes them from 66% to 89%, which is only a 33% improvement. Sure a farseer *can* do more than just this, but I really don't see them being as effective as last book for a number of reasons: unreliable power selection, BS4 across the board needing guide less overall, cheaper units that don't need powers to make them worth their points...

Well you only need to guide the lance of the prism, the basts are fine without guide.
Jetseer is a good investment most of the time.

Having 2 Guides on 1 Farseer is 100% if you want it. meaning you can get a 33% increase on... 1/6th of you army... 2000/6= 333/3=111 (assuming it's a fire prism and a 200ish point unit that shoots at BS 4.

you are over paying by 4 points and you still have 1 more random power... Seems like it's worth the points.

Once their LR and other AV 13/14 vehicles are blown up you guide Warwalkers/Warp Spiders and Blast the infantry with S5 AP3 massive bombs...

Plus that other power... Well thats about a 50/50 of being something just stupid good like... Doom, or Misfortune,.. or Fortune (if you have the points for the extra warp charge, or eldridge storm, or even forwarding... They are all force multipliers meaning your jetseer should be adding at least... 350 to 300 points of value to your army for <150 by boosting friends.

The only way I could justify having a jetseer in the list is to replace the autarch with him, and give him the mantle. I can see the benefits of it, but very few units in my list actually need guide, other than if I add prisms. I see your reasoning though, I'll think it over while I'm at work.

If Eldrad could ride a bike, this would be so much easier to decide.

IMO if you are going to do the Mantle Autarch; go full tilt - give him the shard of anaris and the phoenix gem. Challenge like a boss and never die.

How viable is running a Farseer with mantle and shard, for mobile double guide (able to pres himself to reroll to hit in assault if needed) and challenge with that instead of an autarch? I'm looking at running a solo HQ for more dakka so if the farseer can bring most of what an autarch does in combat, since I don't need reserve trickery, and get powers for effectively free then I'll run that.

Even without challenge viability the farseer is tempting, and the idea of lucking out and rolling up Eldritch Storm on a mantle jetseer is hilarious, or Precognition. I guess the standard 'roll once on runes of fate, if it sucks primaris it and roll twice on divination, otherwise keep it and get fate and div primaris' holds true.

Autarch has higher I, A and WS.

The only way a Seer works better is IF you can roll up precog (Div) and Death Mission (Fate)

However DM stops you from casting other powers once its up. So you would have precog for 1 turn. Also with the mantle seer being your only HQ; and therefore your warlord you don't want it to really be getting DM as you will automatically concede Slay the Warlord at the end of the game.

As for just a solid HQ - the Mantle seer doesn't work as well as a stock jetseer with Spirit Stones in either a jet-council or a 6-9 man Windrider squadron w Jet-lock.

Reroll cover saves is nice; but the mantle is more to have a suicide beatstick out.