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Hey everybody. I am preparing for a local 1750 tournament coming up next month, and I figured I'd post my list as it stands right now to get some feedback.

HQ
Farseer- 100
Farseer- 100
2 Warlocks -80
-2 spears, will be attached to guardians with conceal/reveal

Troops
Guardian Defenders- 100
-Brightlance
Guardian Defenders- 100
-Brightlance
Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS
-Wave Serpent Dedicated Transport- 135 (Holofields, TL Brightlance)

Elites
Fire Dragons- 110

Fast Attack
Warp Spiders- 120
-Exarch, TL Deathspinner, fast shot)

Heavy Support
Falcon- 150
-Holofields, Brightlance
War Walkers- 210
-3 model squadron, all scatter lasers
Wraithknight- 300
-Suncannon, starcannon

The plan for the list is to have the guardian squads and rangers as my objective holders with each of the farseers attached to the guardians for guiding/prescience on the Guardians, War Walkers, and Wraithknight. The Dire avengers and the Fire dragons in the Wave Serpent/Falcon will work in coordination with each other to add mobility to the list, while the War Walkers and Wraithknight serve as heavy fire support against light/heavy infantry as well as light vehicles. My anti-vehicle is coming from the Fire dragons, the brightlances, and Farseers/Warlocks/Wraithknight as a last resort. I realize that the Wraithknight is potentially overpriced, but I think he will be very viable with the suncannon, his survivability, and his speed bumping options to help protect the guardians. Plus he's just such a cool model that I have a hard time not fielding him after I spent that much, and he works as an excellent fire magnet.

Money is a bit tight at the moment, so options for alterations to the list include the other units I own (Maugan Ra, Asurmen, 7 more warlocks on foot, Avatar, Autarch with Wings PW and catapult, 5 Wraithguard, 6 Harlequin but no shadowseer, 6 Striking scorpions with either biting blade or claw exarch, 6 Banshees with executioner, Dire Avenger squad with either PW/SS or catapult exarch, 2 Vypers, 5 Dark reapers, 1 Fire Prism, and 3 Wraithlords). For the most part, I have the bits to run any heavy weapons setup as well. Thanks in advance for the feedback!

By my math, you have a fair amount of points to spare. Granted, you said you included rangers but don't have them listed so this could be a big part of it. The cost of your guardians is also off.


As for your list, the farseers should get spears if you have the points/models. They are better put here than warlocks as they have better BS, so you get more bang for your buck.

Bright lances are okay for guardians, but I would give the serpent TL scatter lasers. You have plenty of anti tank as it is, so short of a necron Av13 wall or BA land raider wall you should be fine. The scatter lasers really benefit the serpent, and a chin cannon would as well.

Speaking of the serpent, I would put the fire dragons here and run the avengers on foot. The avengers are fine on foot most of the time and a great place to hide a seer. Fragons need to rush something and a falcon is not ideal for this. Drop the falcon for a fire prism, it works better and saves points.

The wraithknight should probably take a scatter laser over a starcannon. The extra ap2 dakka is nice, but twin linking the suncannon means you should have enough of that.

It would almost be good to run the avatar in your list with the amount of foot presence you have, but 2 seers is good too. If you are falling short, try to squeeze in something else(scorpions with a claw or vypers).

Oops, you're right. The guardians are 110 points each and I forgot to include the rangers for 60 points. Actually I am not sure what happened, but several of the point values are off... Maybe I accidentally typed up one of the rough drafts of the list. Good suggestions, I'll them a shot. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The list should have been:

HQ
Farseer- 100
Farseer- 100
2 Warlocks -80
-2 spears, will be attached to guardians with conceal/reveal

Troops
Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance
Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance
Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS
-Wave Serpent Dedicated Transport- 135 (Holofields, TL Brightlance)
-Rangers- 60

Elites
Fire Dragons- 110

Fast Attack
Warp Spiders- 120
-Exarch, TL Deathspinner, fast shot)

Heavy Support
Falcon- 150
-Holofields, Brightlance
War Walkers- 210
-3 model squadron, all scatter lasers
Wraithknight- 300
-Suncannon, starcannon

I will need to keep the farseers as they are since the only models I have are the staff farseer in my profile thumbnail and the sword/dagger model. I think I will keep the warlocks in the squad because the +2 cover save has proven to be more than worth their points in my past few games. I like the change of the scatter lasers on the wave serpent, making use of the TL and the synergy with the serpent shield shot. I'll mess around with the options.

I did not mean to drop the warlocks, actually the opposite. I think they are fantastic for a camping BL squad, I just question the use of spears. Since the squad is going to be hiding, you should be out of 12" range most of the time, and hopefully away from armor. The warlock is also a single wound model with Ld8, so prone to fail an LD test. Farseers have 3 wounds and Ld10 with a ghosthelm to eat perils, as well as BS5. Since spears cost the same codexwide, they get priority. It appears you have witchblade locks, probably would be fine with those unless you just need to kill points.

Not related to list building exactly, but I would call the staff on your farseer a spear. It is pointed, basically is a spear. More of a spear than a witchblade IMO. Unless your TO is super strict on WYSIWIG spear would be better here. The other option is to not run any spears and spend the points elsewhere, like a chin cannon for the serpent.

Ok, the reworked list is:

HQ
Farseer- 100
Avatar- 195
2 Warlocks -80
-2 spears, will be attached to guardians with conceal/reveal

Troops
Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance
Guardian Defenders- 110
-Brightlance
Dire Avengers- 160
-Exarch, PW/SS
-Wave Serpent Dedicated Transport- 135 (Holofields, TL Scatter Laser)

Elites
Fire Dragons- 110

Fast Attack
Warp Spiders- 110
-Exarch, TL Deathspinner)

Heavy Support
Fire Prism- 125
War Walkers- 210
-3 model squadron, all scatter lasers
Wraithknight- 300
-Suncannon, scatter laser

I traded out the heavy weapons for a more optimized setup, fixed the point values, and decided to remove a few of the vehicles' upgrades in order to bring the Avatar now that the Dire Avengers are on foot.

Are you looking at grabbing only support powers on your farseer? (i.e. Divination powers, nil on witchfires). If so; grab the Spear of Teuthlas. Same stats as a singing spear but with Rending for 15 points.

I would also agree with Serling about dropping the spears from the babysitting warlocks. Their range isnt long enough to justify the points if you are camping back field objectives and sniping with the lance.

Possibly also look at things like Fast Shot on the Avatar? There's a few other nice powers for him too that would be worth it.

A Holo-field for the Prism would also be a good investment. Not to mention a hot-rod for the dragons. Is there any reason for the PW/SS for the DA Exarch? Otherwise I would advise TL Cats.

Are the Avengers on foot? The Wave Serpent is written as their Dedicated Transport... Is it meant for the Fire Dragons?

I agree that Holofields would be nice. I would ad a Shuricannon to the Serpent if it is transporting the Fragons, in which case it should get into range.

Have you considered switching 1 of the Scatter Lasers on each War Walker to a different weapon? The Scatter Lasers have the biggest amount of shots, but a Shuriken Cannon is "rending", a Starcannon AP2, a EML offers great versitality, and a BL also grants you the option to use them as Anti-Tank. Double Scatter Laser works, I just find the other options better. YMMW of course.

All in all, a really solid list.

Me... wrote:
Are the Avengers on foot? The Wave Serpent is written as their Dedicated Transport... Is it meant for the Fire Dragons?

I agree that Holofields would be nice. I would ad a Shuricannon to the Serpent if it is transporting the Fragons, in which case it should get into range.

Have you considered switching 1 of the Scatter Lasers on each War Walker to a different weapon? The Scatter Lasers have the biggest amount of shots, but a Shuriken Cannon is "rending", a Starcannon AP2, a EML offers great versitality, and a BL also grants you the option to use them as Anti-Tank. Double Scatter Laser works, I just find the other options better. YMMW of course.

All in all, a really solid list.

The other day I ran some Matthammer about WW, and double SL does about ~4 wounds to a MEQ squad. Star Cannons with Scatter Laser performs slightly better if we take a 4+ cover save into account. Also i think StarCannon is a better option due to his range, which is paired with SL. Shuriken Cannon it's too short IMO.

The farseer is looking to be just support. I was planning on rolling on the fate chart, and taking guide if it wasn't fortune or doom, taking prescience, and then rolling on fate again and taking guide if it is not fortune or doom again. If I did end up getting fortune and doom then it is fine that I am not running guide because I think the synergy on doom works better for the army as a whole than guide does.

Yes, the Dire Avengers are looking to be running on foot now along with the guardians and the Avatar. The farseer would be running with the Avengers. Depending on the game type, this moving fearless infantry blob backed by the WW and the Wraithknight could do well I think. The fire prism would probably be over on a flank with good firing views so that anything looking to take it out would need to dedicate moving into a position away from the rest of my army.

I've been almost consistently running the PW/SS model with the avengers because I like the versatility it gives to the unit, helps them last longer if they're on foot now that the shield applies to shooting as well, and it makes them a very viable speed bump unit in my lists. LIke I said in my initial post, I only have around 6 units per each of my close combat squads which generally get eaten up by shooting before they can get it. Maxing the scorpions or harlequins and picking up wave serpents will be my next purchases.

Interesting ideas about changing up the weapon options on the WW. I've almost exclusively run them as all SL's for years, but i'll do some experimenting. EML is a little too expensive for my tastes right now, BL is also kind of out because I feel like that makes them a schizophrenic unit that wants to do 2 things at once but can't, but I like the idea of the Starcannon. With the new laser lock feature and positioning advantages using battle focus I can see how starcannons could be extremely effective. I'll give it a shot.

 noghri wrote:


The other day I ran some Matthammer about WW, and double SL does about ~4 wounds to a MEQ squad. Star Cannons with Scatter Laser performs slightly better if we take a 4+ cover save into account. Also i think StarCannon is a better option due to his range, which is paired with SL. Shuriken Cannon it's too short IMO.

I would say that Shuriken Cannons are best put on Guardian squads as heavy weapons. The reason I say that is because they are "Assault 4" instead of "Heavy X" so that moving and shooting isn't a problem. But a war walker can move and still shoot heavy weapons without a penalty. So WW's don't really benefit from the assault weapon but they do suffer from it's shorter range. In particular, WW's are vulnerable to small arms fire which generally have a 24" range (ie...bolters) and so you really don't want to arm WW's with 24" range weapons that are best used against infantry because you're running the risk of getting shot at.

Scatter Laser + Starcannon has the the best mix in my opinion. Both have 36" range, Starcannon is AP3 and can benefit from Laser Lock.
Double Scatter Laser rolls lots of dice, but is only AP6.
Shuriken Cannon + Anything is too short range.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 noghri wrote:


The other day I ran some Matthammer about WW, and double SL does about ~4 wounds to a MEQ squad. Star Cannons with Scatter Laser performs slightly better if we take a 4+ cover save into account. Also i think StarCannon is a better option due to his range, which is paired with SL. Shuriken Cannon it's too short IMO.

I would say that Shuriken Cannons are best put on Guardian squads as heavy weapons. The reason I say that is because they are "Assault 4" instead of "Heavy X" so that moving and shooting isn't a problem.

The weapon platform is now a model and has the relentless USR, so moving and shooting and using battle focus with brightlance is no problem

Scatter Laser + Starcannon has the the best mix in my opinion. Both have 36" range, Starcannon is AP3 and can benefit from Laser Lock.

Star cannon is AP2 not AP3, which is the biggest reason to take it over another SL. Although it depends on your HQ setup and the army as a whole, as its possible the war walkers can get rerolls from farseers and then the laser lock is a waste. I personally like the idea of war walkers that aren't reliant on a farseer to babysit them (outflank and whatnot) and locally 2+ is common but dual scat walkers are fine as well.

Models availability not withstanding I'd run the wraithknight as the base version, go without an exarch on the Dires, drop the spears on the warlock, and add a 3 man bike unit and upgrade the serpent to have shuriken cannon and upgrade the fire dragons with a fast shot firepike exarch (I think that's doable, if not leave the DA exarch for the FD one). Reasonings:
--Waveserpent is more dangerous with the shurican cannon getting twin linked
--Wraithknigt is more efficient as the base 240 (5++ is only useful in combat, suncannon is waaay over priced as is the SL, his base weapons are useful, but it really comes down to 60 points you can more effectively use elsewhere in the form of a fast scoring unit or another ranger squad)
--Firedragons get a bit better when they have the 18" range and a couple of precision shots -- eg you have options other then suicide runs on tanks. As noted above this isn't a must take, you could keep the DA exarch if you want.

For 240 points, instead of the wraithknight I'd rather have another unit of avengers in a wave serpent.

The dire avengers are scoring and the serpent does more damage.

The WK is only slightly more survivable. (taking into account you need at least STR 6 to glance the WS, but the WK can take wounds from mass small arms fire)

jcress410 wrote:
For 240 points, instead of the wraithknight I'd rather have another unit of avengers in a wave serpent.

The dire avengers are scoring and the serpent does more damage.

The WK is only slightly more survivable. (taking into account you need at least STR 6 to glance the WS, but the WK can take wounds from mass small arms fire)

S5 is not small arms fire outside of a Tau army. The WK is immune to bolters and as such needs to either be torrented down by Tau or you need to employ a lot of your heavy AT weaponry into it.

The suncannon is actually worth it IMO with a scatter laser. 3 plasma cannon shots are nasty; great for taking out anything that deep strikes too.

Yeah, I have really enjoyed using the suncannon. The extra range and sheer power of the weapon makes him pretty much a dark reaper exarch (who more often than not pays for himself back in points not counting the shooting of the rest of the squad) who is immune to small arms fire, will divert heavy weapons fire away from my vehicles, is very mobile in being able to move 12" a turn without affecting shooting, and provides a threat for counter attack to help out my guardian squads. He may be expensive, but I feel like he's worth it.

The heavy wraithcannons are nice, but I have difficulty justifying bringing a model that becomes essentially 2 wraithguard models with longer range. For a model that expensive I want him to be either a big threat in CC or shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the list's lack of close combat concern anybody though? I feel like I might need to work in a squad of Scorpions, Banshees, or Harlequins but the problem is that I only have a 6 model unit of each and I don't have a Shadowseer model. Is it necessary that I add one in and if so, can I run them in a 6 model unit? I realize that ideally they should be in a Wave Serpent, but with money the way it is right now, all I'm going to have available are the 1 Wave Serpent and 1 Falcon models that I have now as far as army-wide transportation goes.

Heavy wraithcannons are... they're ok. They're nice to have a bit more mobility, range and general options. The Knight still has 5 attacks on the charge + an S10 HoW. Sometimes though - the lack of the 5++ is asking to get hit by 10 lascannons on the first turn.

As for the lack of CC - you have a lot of units that can function in CC in a pinch. My old guardians had a better kill count than my harlequins with our 4th Ed codex. And look - guardians got better!
As said above - the WK even with a big gun can still work in CC in a pinch. I've launched mine face first into 20 necron warriors; only to kill 5 and sweep them. Have also killed a GUO with one too (Suncannon / SL load out).

My old motto with our 4th Ed wraithlords stands with our 6th Ed Knights. Just because they come with lots of big guns doesn't mean that their stupidly high strength and decent attacks can't be used to effect when applied directly to your opponents face or nether regions. They're T8 - very little can scare them outside of lots of powerfists or poison. Pick your battle and mow them down!

 winterman wrote:

The weapon platform is now a model and has the relentless USR, so moving and shooting and using battle focus with brightlance is no problem

Ah! I didn't see that. Nice.

I'm experimenting today with taking out the spiders, taking the scatter laser off of the wraithknignt, and downgrading all of the spears in order to bring a 6 man unit of scorpions with a claw. They'll be running on foot to support the avatar and the dire avengers. I'm hoping that running such a small unit size will be viable with other more tempting targets on the field, and appropriate use of cover from terrain and unit positioning to help them benefit from their stealth. They'll help cut the dire avengers and avatar out of CC acting as a counter assault unit. If I end up needing a full 10 man squad, I'll order another box and take out a war walker from the squadron to work the other models in. What do you guys think? Is the other list with the spiders stronger or will the CC support be worth it? Is it absolutely necessary to have a larger squad size for cc?