Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was wondering can space marines really replace losses it seems to me that the scout company could never be able to make up losses in any reasonable time except maybe the black templars and space wolves. It takes years to fully make a space marine and they have to survive the scouts. So I was just wondering if I'm the only one who notice and or cares.

There's a reason why most Chapters go centuries between major engagements.

Space marines (in fluff at least) are the ultimate combatants. If a hundred hit the field than about 3 will die and the rest may suffer some injuries.

They have a lot of scout's, potential recruits, generally they only give the extra organs and pricey enhancements to those that have earned it by surviving.

gilamonster wrote:
I was wondering can space marines really replace losses it seems to me that the scout company could never be able to make up losses in any reasonable time except maybe the black templars and space wolves. It takes years to fully make a space marine and they have to survive the scouts. So I was just wondering if I'm the only one who notice and or cares.

It all goes back to the GW writers pigeon holing themselves into a logical corner with the 1000 marine chapter size AND portrayals of open warfare. Basically it can only be one or the other. Either a chapter fights sparingly with limited engagements at 1000 marines, such as Forgeworld Badab War stories, or there are more than 1000 marines who engage in open warfare as displayed in Black Library books and codex stories. It can't be both.

The reason being is that you are correct, it take decades to obtain and train a new marine, and recruitment is rare. What's worse, the loss of a single marine diminishes the fighting strength of the entire chapter. This is an unsustainable model. If, as Forgeworld writes, marines are a discreet strike force that hits one or two targets then withdraws from the warzone, then yes, perhaps 1000 marines makes sense. If on the other hand, however, as shown in codexes and Black Library books, marines engage in open warfare, assaulting fortresses and engaging in street fights then the losses from multiple engagement would far outstrip the chapter amount and there must be hundreds, if not thousands, of trainees in process of becoming marines; IE there are more than 1000 marines in the count.

Again, it can only be one of two possibilities, either there are 1000 marines that fight in very, very limited engagements, or there must be more than the 1000 count number.

OK so say a company from a codex chapter gets hit hard by orks or tyranids and 80 to 90 marines die how long till there back up to strength. And dosnt that effect the replacement for the rest of the chapter

Depends on the Chapter. If its other 9 Companies are not also taking casualties, then the Scouts currently in training will most likely be dedicated to the low-strength Company until it's replenished. I'd say an average of 50 years, given that most Chapters don't train large numbers of recruits at one time, but they also have a good number at some stage of training at any one time.

... but, really, this is such an open-ended question that we really can't do anything but guess at averages and statistics.

I think gene seed is 50 years to mature, so 50 years if they had 90 other marines who had mature geneseed to be implanted, plus the time to find the recruits, plus the ones who die horribly, plus the training, then finally applying the mature geneseed to a single applicant. I may be spit balling but I'd say roughly 65 years to make a marine. If you have mature geneseed on hand.

So it seems that space wolves and possible black templars have the best replacement policy maybe the grey knights thought I'm not very familiar with them. But thanks for the answers it was a question that was bugging me.

 High Emperor Aggron wrote:
I think gene seed is 50 years to mature

I think you're getting mixed up with chapter creation, it takes the AdMech 55 years to get a full thousand sets of implants starting from a single set of implants. Its a matter of canon that the Black Carapace - the last implant - is fully matured within a matter of months of implantation, which is at most 8 (at minimum 4) years after the first implants.

Note with a few erroneous exceptions the Scout company is always stated to have no formal size (the 10 companies of 1000 thing is like most generalizations wrong), - its actual size will vary depending on the need.

Fluffwise, a chapter won't take heavy losses very often. They may go decades and lose only a handful of marines.

Most engagements a marine is deployed to are smaller ones that he will almost certainly survive. A chapter is often spread out across space. With the different companies, and potentially individual squads, on their own deployments.

Every now and then, a chapter may suffer severe losses. usually in defense of a vital world or a crusade. After this, the chapter may take decades to recover.

I take the number one thousand to mean battle brothers only. Which doesn't include officers, commands squads, and Techmarines. Factor in said marines and the true strength could be as high as fithteen hundred. Not to meantion any new recruits being induced into the chapter who are in training to join the scout company, if they live.

A Space Marine chapter also commands a planet/star system. And that probably includes many (millions?) IG like soldiers for defence. Perhaps those soldiers that are not-quite Marines are kept in that state (perhaps permanently) and work in the SM's IG like forces. Kept from becoming Space Marines not because they cannot finish the change, but because they may not as it would then violate the codex Astartes.

It comes down to a few things.

1, There's a constant stream of replenishment. Thanks to the way the implantation and training process is a multi stage process there's always recruits at each stage of development.

When times are tough they can always ramp up recruitment, having a whole population (or multiple populations) to recruit from, and large stocks of gene-seed.

2, It's rare for a Chapter to suffer massive casualties. Space Marine are shock troopers and wielded like a scalpel, not a hammer. They go in, annihilate the target and get out. Open warfare hasn't been their thing since the Legions.

They also have the advantage of Space Marine physiology. It's really very difficult to actually kill a marine and short of death they'll consistently survive and be able to keep fighting. They can be patched up with bionics.

They say scalpel and not shock troopers but the way black library and GW to some degree portray them they seem to be used in open battle a lot.

And during a series of battles where a few die here and there it adds up and when you take in to account multiple companies per chapter being deployed at the same time.

Even when they are used as strike teams going after leaders and important targets like up against a ork warboss who preceds to cut down a squad or two in the process there losses are not insignificant.

Well, each successful Neophyte has 2 progenoid glands (thus, 2 gene seed(s)) to harvest. The first one is harvested early, I believe. Perhaps shortly before being assigned to the Scout company. The second is harvested upon death.

Therefore, assuming that no seed is lost, every space marine can spawn 2 more space marines - with a net gain of 1. It is unlikely that all fallen brother will have their gene seed retrieved on the battlefield. Thus, you will, at best, have slightly above a break-even level, perhaps even net loss over a century of crusading. Of additional importance is that when an aspirant is lost during the implantation process, (I believe) the organs already implanted, and therefore the gene seed used to create them, are lost.

It seems that a chapter will rarely ever commit even 50% of its companies to battle - other than, perhaps, in defense of recruiting worlds or the chapter monastery. In practice, it seem that no more than 50% of the companies are actively on crusade at any given time - thus reducing the chances that a chapter can be crippled in a single engagement.

One must also take into account that many aspirants die or otherwise fail during the implantation process. Those percentages can be quite high, especially where the chapter's gene seed is unstable.

Given all these factors, it seem likely that a chapter could recover from the loss of even an entire company quite quickly (relative to the long lifespans of Astarte). However, where a chapter loses larger numbers, it may be forced to operate under-strength or crusade less frequently while it replaces its losses. Outright dormant periods may be necessary, but likely only when the chapter has involved a large percentage of itself in a major engagement and taken heavy losses.

Well, Marines are *supposed* to be shock troopers... but they can be caught out and forced into engagements against their terms, especially when you look at some of their enemies... Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids...
The main thing is that not all Marines that fall on the battlefield die. That's what Apothecaries are for, they get them back into battle later on.

One good example of how greatly a Chapter can suffer is the loss of the entire First Company of the Ultramarines with the Tyranids (Hive Fleet Behemoth, was it...?). That's put forward as taking a good couple of hundred years to recover, but then that's Veterans we're talking about and not ordinary Battle Brothers.

 Super Ready wrote:
Well, Marines are *supposed* to be shock troopers... but they can be caught out and forced into engagements against their terms, especially when you look at some of their enemies... Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids...
The main thing is that not all Marines that fall on the battlefield die. That's what Apothecaries are for, they get them back into battle later on.

One good example of how greatly a Chapter can suffer is the loss of the entire First Company of the Ultramarines with the Tyranids (Hive Fleet Behemoth, was it...?). That's put forward as taking a good couple of hundred years to recover, but then that's Veterans we're talking about and not ordinary Battle Brothers.

Another good example is the loss of the 1st company of the Storm Wardens during the Nemesis Incident. It's taken centuries for that chapter to recover from the loss of just its 1st company. I can't even imagine what would happen to a chapter than lost, say, 25-50% of its battle brothers. It could take millenia to recover from that.

 Traejun wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Well, Marines are *supposed* to be shock troopers... but they can be caught out and forced into engagements against their terms, especially when you look at some of their enemies... Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids...
The main thing is that not all Marines that fall on the battlefield die. That's what Apothecaries are for, they get them back into battle later on.

One good example of how greatly a Chapter can suffer is the loss of the entire First Company of the Ultramarines with the Tyranids (Hive Fleet Behemoth, was it...?). That's put forward as taking a good couple of hundred years to recover, but then that's Veterans we're talking about and not ordinary Battle Brothers.

Another good example is the loss of the 1st company of the Storm Wardens during the Nemesis Incident. It's taken centuries for that chapter to recover from the loss of just its 1st company. I can't even imagine what would happen to a chapter than lost, say, 25-50% of its battle brothers. It could take millenia to recover from that.

Arguably a 1st company would require more time since you'd want marines who are actually qualified to uphold the standards of what it means to be a 1st company. Veterans are a heck of a lot harder to replace than linemen.

There are actually examples of Chapters that have lost "too much". The Crimson Fists were on the verge of annihilation for a long time and are still recovering. Then there are other Chapters (whose names escape me) that have taken so many casualties that the remaining Marines opt to go on a more-or-less suicidal crusade rather than suffer fading out over time... so there is a point at which at least the Marines themselves consider too far gone to come back.

 Super Ready wrote:
There are actually examples of Chapters that have lost "too much". The Crimson Fists were on the verge of annihilation for a long time and are still recovering. Then there are other Chapters (whose names escape me) that have taken so many casualties that the remaining Marines opt to go on a more-or-less suicidal crusade rather than suffer fading out over time... so there is a point at which at least the Marines themselves consider too far gone to come back.

I know the Celestial lions have <100 marines left and have chosen to die in glorious battle rather than slowly wither away piecemeal (although that's also because they lost their apothecaries).
Also, the Flesh Tearers are around 400 but so many of their numbers succumb to the Black Rage that they will eventually die out and Chapter Master Seth has set it upon himself to always have guys out there looking for signs of distress so they can be the first responders to Imperial disaster as to avoid having the stigma of raging lunatics.

On another note, I kind of see the deployment/use of marines similar to how Special Forces are used in today's militaries. They're used for small, precision strikes and even on larger missions where dozens are used, they'll take maybe a few casualties because of their tactics and general fighting ability greatly surpasses their foes. And when a large amount of them are killed, it's a big deal, like in Operation Red Wings in 2005 when 12 Navy SEALs died in Afghanistan from enemy fire and a Chinook being shot down.

Super Ready wrote:Then there are other Chapters (whose names escape me) that have taken so many casualties that the remaining Marines opt to go on a more-or-less suicidal crusade rather than suffer fading out over time...

Celestial Lions?

A good example would be the Scythes of the Emperor.

The 1000 Man Chapter is to me, like 2 Infantry battalions, it doesn't include the Techmarines, Fleet Captains, Equerries, Those on Deathwatch Duty or Honour Guards, Command Units, Dreadnoughts.

To me the 10th Company isn't 100, it could be 33 or 300 or anyother figure. In reality it would have to be high, to supply the constant stream of replacements into the Battle-Companies and reserve Companies. Obviously the Devastator Squads being the main depository of the newly minted Marines.

I wouldn't consider SM Scouts as Full Brothers, so to me the 1000 Man Chapter is not hard and fast as Made out. Because even the Ultramarines Organisation as Stated is over 1500, including Thunderhawk pilots, Rhino and Tank drivers Chronus etc.

It's a 1000 Fighting men, + 600 HQ, trainees and Support elements. This is my Opinion and not strictly in accordance with the fluff, but the fluff is clearly wrong as it omits all the HQ's and techmarines etc.

mwnciboo wrote:[...] but the fluff is clearly wrong as it omits all the HQ's and techmarines etc.

Without wanting to attack your preferred interpretation of the setting (given that our own opinions are just as valid as official fluff), GW's background actually does clearly include the elements you mentioned. I don't know why this seems to be such a common misconception, but I believe it's one of those urban myths that stems from people looking more to various fan analysis rather than what the books themselves actually say.

"A Chapter consists of ten Companies each numbering 100 Space Marines. A Company consists of ten squads of ten men including a Sergeant. In addition to this basic fighting unit, each company has its own Captain, Standard Bearer, Chaplain and Apothecary. [...] A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the Company organisation. These individuals are known as the Headquarters staff and they may be assigned to fight with a Company in battle. Included amongst them are psychic Librarians from the Chapter’s Librarius and Techmarines, together with their Servitors."
- WD #252 Index Astartes

^ the above was also included in several Space Marine codices, starting with the 2nd edition Codex Ultramarines.

It's absolutely okay to still pursue a different interpretation, but in this instance at least, GW's numbers do add up, and nothing has been omitted.

I mean all of it, all of it...

Thralls, Trainees, Initiates, Officers and Astartes on Secondment. The whole thing was written along time ago by someone who wasn't thinking straight, they've tried to caveat it with HQ and support staff.

But if you add it up even you are looking at Circa 2000 Marines, whether in the Battle Companies or the Reserve ones, but all the Fleet officers, recruiters, trainers, those on administrative duties etc.

The 1000 man Chapter is a bit of a myth and that's what I don't like. You are right it says in Addition to, so it's no where near 1000 men.

How is it a caveat if it's been there all along? And even for the Scout Company it has been said that the 10x10 is pretty much just a guideline due to recruitment fluctuations.

For the rest, I suppose we just disagree on how large the Supernumaries staff is - my own estimates would be more around 200-300, keeping in mind that the Marines are pulling double-duties (for example, the Master of the Fleets is simultaneously the Captain of the ... I think it was the 3rd Company, or 4th?). But specific numbers are pretty much personal interpretation (although the 5E Marine 'dex did include a fairly detailed listing). All I'm saying is that GW has explained this right from the start, and that in this case a lot of criticism simply isn't justified.

 mwnciboo wrote:
I mean all of it, all of it...

Thralls, Trainees, Initiates, Officers and Astartes on Secondment. The whole thing was written along time ago by someone who wasn't thinking straight, they've tried to caveat it with HQ and support staff.

But if you add it up even you are looking at Circa 2000 Marines, whether in the Battle Companies or the Reserve ones, but all the Fleet officers, recruiters, trainers, those on administrative duties etc.

The 1000 man Chapter is a bit of a myth and that's what I don't like. You are right it says in Addition to, so it's no where near 1000 men.

Thralls and Initiates are humans. Space marine fleets don't have dedicated marines manning each ship. A particular strike cruiser or frigate would have a human captain and crew who is overruled by whatever astartes company captain happens to be making use of that vessel, but the company captain is already counted among the 10 company structure. This is true of recruiters, trainers, and so on. Each of these would be pulled from the reserve companies or would be scout sergeants in the case of trainers.

Yeah, a lot of stuff just isn't very intuitive - you have to hunt down the fluff to actually get what GW was trying to tell here.

For example, Space Marine starships basically just being used as taxis whenever a Strike Force actually embarks on one, rather than as a constant base for a unit.

The same is true of the Reserves - which aren't actually used as reserves in the conventional military sense (meaning: fully independend units that are kept in the rear until called into action), but really just a pool of extra warriors to reinforce a Battle Company with fire support or drivers, or to replace casualties via personnel transfers.

It's kind of cool, though. Personally, I'd find it somewhat lame if Space Marines would work just like a contemporary military unit.

 Lynata wrote:
Yeah, a lot of stuff just isn't very intuitive - you have to hunt down the fluff to actually get what GW was trying to tell here.

For example, Space Marine starships basically just being used as taxis whenever a Strike Force actually embarks on one, rather than as a constant base for a unit.

The same is true of the Reserves - which aren't actually used as reserves in the conventional military sense (meaning: fully independend units that are kept in the rear until called into action), but really just a pool of extra warriors to reinforce a Battle Company with fire support or drivers, or to replace casualties via personnel transfers.

It's kind of cool, though. Personally, I'd find it somewhat lame if Space Marines would work just like a contemporary military unit.

It seem the whole concept of the "reserve" companies in a chapter is simply a misnomer. It's more like "second choice" companies - those that are only sent into action when the battle companies are otherwise engaged or in need of support. If they were nothing more than a pool of hole pluggers, there'd be no need to organize them into companies or have captains in command of those units.

Well Reserves could also be seen as meaning Reinforcements.

Maybe a better term would be Auxiliary companies.