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jareddm wrote:

Thralls and Initiates are humans. Space marine fleets don't have dedicated marines manning each ship. A particular strike cruiser or frigate would have a human captain and crew who is overruled by whatever astartes company captain happens to be making use of that vessel, but the company captain is already counted among the 10 company structure. This is true of recruiters, trainers, and so on. Each of these would be pulled from the reserve companies or would be scout sergeants in the case of trainers.

It depends on the chapter actually. Some of the BL books indicate permanent space marine captains for ships, though not crew. Some chapters are indicated to use space marines as pilots for Thunderhawks, some serfs, and some servitors. It should really be said that chapters vary in force organization, including auxiliaries, and so some are going to technically have more space marines than others(even if we ignore those that purposefully ignore the codex astartes 1000 man infantry force mandate). Consider it deviation from the codex as time goes on.

Reserve companies seem like a waste to me to have 400 marines as back up instead of using them full time. It may be just me but I prefer the iron hands or SW or BT way having self contained companies.

But in all honesty I'm still fuzzy on the uses of the reserve companies.

Well they definitely are not sitting around on their bums. They are still very much active duty, just usually attached to one of the line companies.

Yeah reserve companies are usually attached to other companies to reinforce them in various ways...

Duty in a Space Marine company is also a lifestyle, not just a job. Having a Sergeant and a Captain above them, even if the company never (or very, very rarely) actually works as a unit would provide a sense of stability and social cohesion. It's the Astartes Life.

This is from a rather informative article on Ultramarines tactics and organisation in WD #300:
"Unless their mission is very unusual, every Ultramarines battle force will be based around at least one battle company. Sometimes it will be supported by detachments from other companies. Some members of the Veteran 1st company and the Scounts of the 10th company will often be attached to the battle company, as will a number of battle brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the supporting vehicles."

With their organisation, it kind of all ties into each other, even though I'm sure the companies could also fight independently if they'd really have to. Apart from their physiology and equipment, one of the Space Marines' biggest advantages is that they are so extremely versatile and can adapt to almost any situation (hence they train in almost everything throughout an ordinary career).

 rems01 wrote:
a whole population (or multiple populations) to recruit from, and large stocks of gene-seed.

Well... not really.

Maybe two to five percent of the population at most, and not necessarily the best two to five percent of the population, either. Keep in mind that half is cut instantly due to women all being excluded, and then even after taht, the person has to be genetically similar enough to accept the gene-seed-- which cuts the population down to an even smaller fraction. Then on top of that, they only recruit from those of a specific age range, cutting the population down to an even SMALLER fraction, and only those who are lucky enough to survive the grueling tests (bad luck is all that is required to be killed in a gladiatorial fight to the death, which some chapters use to judge worthy recruits) cut it even smaller than that.

The problem is that GW doesn't really pay attention to what they write, they just want it to sound cool from first glance, even though it makes no sense when put under strict scrutiny.

Some Chapters also have some weird habits such as the Salamanders taking only those kids who are adept at blacksmithing...

... I could actually still see it work out somehow if they'd attempt recruitment often and/or just don't deploy all the time. But then you've got some fluff (even from GW, which I usually defend) with things such as the Blood Angels only testing recruits once every ten years or so, and of course not taking time-off from the big battles either.
But that's where our own interpretation comes into play, I guess.

Not to mention many Chapters recruit on Feral worlds where the population base is small to begin with. And the recruitment method is often to pit recruits against each other in a fight to the death, or having them do something else incredibly dangerous. Once enough have died the survivors are taken for the Chapter to train.

I can see a Chapter like the Ultramarines (with a small empire of civilized worlds) or Imperial Fists (who can recruit from a Hive world) being able to replace losses relatively quickly. And even then I'm sure the Codex Astartes says you shouldn't try to solve a problem just by burying it in smoldering Marine corpses.

Even a Feral world's population won't be so small that a few thousand deaths will adversely effect it.

I think he's referring to a smaller popularion yielding a smaller number of potential recruits. To thin out that number even more may be a bit ... inefficient.

Then again, since when is 40k about efficiency.

Also, there is a small cop-out: Geneseed compatibility is different from planet to planet. For example, the homeworld of the Flesh Tearers was reported to sport a feral population that is comparatively small, but very receptive to it.

True, although a smaller population can also mean its easier to find the potential recruits.

Sure, you might be able to get thousands of neophytes from a Hive World each year and only a few hundred from a feral world, but its much easier to find the few hundred on a Feral world.

And most of the time I imagine a chapter only needs a few hundred neophytes per year to replenish normal losses.

Grey Templar wrote:And most of the time I imagine a chapter only needs a few hundred neophytes per year to replenish normal losses.

That'd be more than enough, I reckon. Unfortunately, a whole lot of background, even from GW, makes recruitment efforts appear much more rare, and less widescale. Just look at the Blood Angels here, for example.

I really like GW fluff as a whole and prefer it to other sources, but there are times when even I have to admit that occasionally it just seems a bit weird.

gilamonster wrote:
I was wondering can space marines really replace losses it seems to me that the scout company could never be able to make up losses in any reasonable time except maybe the black templars and space wolves. It takes years to fully make a space marine and they have to survive the scouts. So I was just wondering if I'm the only one who notice and or cares.

40k is really more Fantasy in Space than Scifi, as such, when you really start looking at these sorts of things, it breaks down. The Space Marines could not reasonably recover their losses at the rates at which they are described as taking them in the time periods they are described as fighting.

The Space Marines in general really just don't work on any realistic level, they're too few, lack too many capabilities (e.g. long range artillery, lack enough aircraft to oppose any real opponents mastery of the skies, etc), take too long to reinforce, and can't be in enough places at once, and they're so outnumbered by the Imperial Guard that a few hours of their recruitment would match the entire military value of the Astartes. Realistically the Space Marines should have been long ago made extinct given the rate at which they engage in battle and take casualties, and the rate at which they can reinforce themselves. 40k breaks once you really start looking into how it works, and especially the Space Marines. It's best just not to think about it. It's a high Fantasy universe where stuff happens just because.

 DeffDred wrote:
Space marines (in fluff at least) are the ultimate combatants. If a hundred hit the field than about 3 will die and the rest may suffer some injuries.

Even that would become unsustainable after several engaents as their numbers dwindle their capabilities become ever more stretched and they end up taking more an more casualties that take years and years, if not decades, to replace. If that company engages in just 5 combats a year (Space Marines are described as being constantly engaged in battle), they're down to 85 guys, now they're low, so they start losing 4 guys, another year, they're down to 65 guys and are no longer combat effective because everyone's having to fill multiple roles and they're specialists are spread far too thin, and their reinforcements of 10 initiates still won't be ready for 3 more years...

In fairness, that's why they've got the Reserves - to have a pool of battle-ready reinforcements that can transfer into a Battle Company on a moment's notice.
But of course you still have a point - it would (should) break down on some level, and depleting the Reserves would result in premature promotion of Scouts, and then they don't have any Scouts left, etc ...

I still believe in the Space Marines having their use, though. Lacking in artillery or air power does not matter as they are simply not meant to fight a traditional war anyways. They go in fast, kill or destroy something, and disappear again. If resistance is too high, they will seek support from the Imperial Guard to ensure the success of their mission. GW's descriptions of Imperial tactics have always mentioned these things, and the Space Marines are the maximum concentration of fighting strength in a single trooper. They've also always been said to be multi-role-capable, being trained in the use of normal and heavy weapons (Devastator stint), sniping and infiltration tactics (Scout probation) as well as driving vehicles. Pretty much the only roles that would require further training are Jump Infantry and Terminator positions?

Really, the only problem is that somehow much of the individual battle stories conflict with said general descriptions, either by letting the Marines deploy in a "wrong" way (but of course still winning) and by letting them deploy so often in spite of the low recruitment rate.
Maybe it's just that whoever writes these battle segments does not "connect the dots" to check if it fits in with the larger picture - and of course there is always the likely possibility that many of the battles we do hear of are not representative of the Astartes' ordinary battles, but rather the exceptions that end up becoming legend.

tl;dr: it kind of works out if you just don't let them deploy that often, but only have them go into battle once every few years.

Problem is that space marines are stated to be constantly in combat, not once every few years. It'd make more sense if they didn't die so easily, but they seem to die kinda easily in a lot of the fluff stories. Sure, the named protagonist space marines survive kiiinda okay but the rest are only slightly better than red shirts in most stories. Which might not be representative of how they actually go (especially since IIRC most marines are stated to live at least a century before getting killed by combat? And many live longer than that) but sure doesn't feel like it by the stories. ...or feel very realistic given how brutal the galaxy is.

I guess it's easier to imagine with the Legions, who appear to have both an insanely high recruitment rate and an rather high attrition rate. Or maybe the Black Templars (who are kinda like a space marine legion anyways, really). But for the general space marine chapter of only 1,000 marines, everything just seems... too... tight, really.

It would also be easier to accept if Marines weren't so insanely heavily restricted in their recruiting habits. They can only pick the best from an incredibly limited population of an incredibly tiny number of worlds.

As it is, the Marine fluff is kind of silly (which is accurate for 40k fluff in general really).

TiamatRoar wrote:Problem is that space marines are stated to be constantly in combat, not once every few years.

Is that actually said somewhere in GW studio fluff? Do we have a quote for that?

For the moment, I'm only aware of some battles being dangerously close on the timeline, but I can't recall reading anything about "constantly in combat".

It does make me wonder how Warp travel distortion would influence this, though. Time runs faster outside the Warp (where they recruit) than inside the Warp (where they travel to the warzone and back), iirc?
Probably still isn't enough if you're pedantic about it, but with some liberal handwaving it could be explained away .. perhaps?

Of course, sometimes the warp goes slower, other times it goes backwards in time. So on average I think it's not too much different...

 Lynata wrote:
In fairness, that's why they've got the Reserves - to have a pool of battle-ready reinforcements that can transfer into a Battle Company on a moment's notice.

Yes, but they're still limited to 1000 marines per chapter, and they can only intake new marines at a very slow rate, likely much faster than they'd lose them in battle.

But of course you still have a point - it would (should) break down on some level, and depleting the Reserves would result in premature promotion of Scouts, and then they don't have any Scouts left, etc ...

Exactly

I still believe in the Space Marines having their use, though. Lacking in artillery or air power does not matter as they are simply not meant to fight a traditional war anyways. They go in fast, kill or destroy something, and disappear again. If resistance is too high, they will seek support from the Imperial Guard to ensure the success of their mission. GW's descriptions of Imperial tactics have always mentioned these things,

The problem is that much of the time the Space Marines are described as engaging in planetary invasions all on their lonesome, long protracted sieges, engaging entire armadas by themselves, fighting conventional land battles, etc, and otherwise acting as big invincible guardsmen, and are often described as constantly moving straight from one warzone to another. Air power really should matter as an enemy controlling the skies can shut them down very quickly or prevent them from reaching their targets altogether, and Artillery has (at least in modern-ish times) been the #1 cause of death by enemy action, especially when guns can be brought to bear from 15/20/30 miles away from the front which Marines largely don't have an answer to short of orbital bombardment (which isn't always available) and SM's generally aren't described as using such in anywhere near the same manner as conventional artillery (e.g. an Imperial Guard lieutenant can call in artillery support on the vox, but generally a Space Marine sergeant cannot call down similar fire support in anything near the same manner)

and the Space Marines are the maximum concentration of fighting strength in a single trooper. They've also always been said to be multi-role-capable, being trained in the use of normal and heavy weapons (Devastator stint), sniping and infiltration tactics (Scout probation) as well as driving vehicles. Pretty much the only roles that would require further training are Jump Infantry and Terminator positions?

Stuff like sergeants and captains and other officers, techmarines, pilots, and as you noted scouts and assault units, company veterans, etc.

Really, the only problem is that somehow much of the individual battle stories conflict with said general descriptions, either by letting the Marines deploy in a "wrong" way (but of course still winning) and by letting them deploy so often in spite of the low recruitment rate.

This is much of it, but even then, in a galaxy of a million worlds and war raging over a galaxy 100,000 light years in diameter, a million space marines would be so rare as to be beyond mythical, especially when conventional Imperial Guard troops outnumber them by tens of millions to one, the Imperium could spend millions more lives of Imperial Guard troops on an objective and they'd still come out ahead over losing a single Space Marine, who of course likely couldn't accomplish something that would require millions of guradsmen anyway.

Maybe it's just that whoever writes these battle segments does not "connect the dots" to check if it fits in with the larger picture -

This bit seems to be really where the issue is. GW doesn't seem to realize the imbalance in numbers they've put into their fluff. They've stated that there's literally billions (with a B) of IG regiments, that means several million IG regiments (roughly equivalent in size to a modern military Division, or larger) per Space Marine chapter. This means that for each Space Marine, there's as many guardsmen as there were soldiers in the Red Army in WW2. This sort of numbers imbalance, not to mention the thin spread of the Astartes over every battle zone, really breaks the idea of the Space Marines once analyzed, as they're so rare as to be effectively nowhere and thus the conventional forces must be able to make do without them well enough.

They'd really need to be increased in number by several orders of magnitude to be as relevant as they're portrayed. This of course goes for my beloved Chaos Space Marines as well, as really, the IG could dump 1% of its manpower into fighting them and still be facing the CSM's with absolutely overwhelming numerical superiority on a scale not seen in modern warfare.

and of course there is always the likely possibility that many of the battles we do hear of are not representative of the Astartes' ordinary battles, but rather the exceptions that end up becoming legend.

That's true, but then every mundane SM action is largely decribed as such

Well, they might realize it and just not care.

Another possibility.

Also entirely true

What about chaos marines I know alot of the older ones are from the legion days who live off warp stuff and killing things but what about the regular CSM how are they recruited and trained if you can call it that.

Do they take the gene seed from there dead.

Vaktathi wrote:This sort of numbers imbalance, not to mention the thin spread of the Astartes over every battle zone, really breaks the idea of the Space Marines once analyzed, as they're so rare as to be effectively nowhere and thus the conventional forces must be able to make do without them well enough. They'd really need to be increased in number by several orders of magnitude to be as relevant as they're portrayed.

I don't even think they would have to, or should do that. The Space Marines just shouldn't show up at every random battle, 's all. There are battles like Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade etc where it just makes sense to have something that is this powerful, regardless of how rare it is. It's kind of the same thing with Titans, Superheavy Tanks, or Navy Battleships. It doesn't matter how many you have - what matters is that the ones available are deployed where they can leave the most considerable impact on the battlefield. And when a company of Marines punching through an enemy fortification saves you three regiments of Guard that would have otherwise spent months besieging that place, hey, tactical advantage right there.

Basically, SM are firefighters. They should be used as such - not line troops. And most of GW's general descriptions actually support this notion.

The same is true for the Storm Trooper regiment, by the way. It's not useless just because there's only 10k of them. It just means they won't be able to show up everywhere.
Same for the Sisters of Battle.

Melissia wrote:Well, they might realize it and just not care.
Another possibility.

That is ... rather likely, I suppose - especially considering their "it's all hearsay and half-truths" stance on the background.

gilamonster wrote:What about chaos marines I know alot of the older ones are from the legion days who live off warp stuff and killing things but what about the regular CSM how are they recruited and trained if you can call it that.
Do they take the gene seed from there dead.

Apparently, geneseed can go "bad" and decay if it's not harvested soon after death, but I do recall some of GW's fluff mentioning that renegade Marine warbands occasionally try to raid other Chapters' Fortress-Monasteries for their geneseed in order to replenish their own numbers. As this sounds like a rather dangerous thing to do, but also shows that they are not beyond stealing geneseed from other Chapters, I would say it is at least highly possible that they scavenge geneseed from fallen enemies as well, if they have the means to do so.
There have also been stories about them conscripting the Chaos-infused natives from worlds in the Eye of Terra, as well as people like Fabius Bile experimenting with other ways on how to make a Space Marine.

 DeffDred wrote:
Space marines (in fluff at least) are the ultimate combatants. If a hundred hit the field than about 3 will die and the rest may suffer some injuries.

seemingly not when they fight tyranids and chaos space marines though.

 Lynata wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:[...] but the fluff is clearly wrong as it omits all the HQ's and techmarines etc.

Without wanting to attack your preferred interpretation of the setting (given that our own opinions are just as valid as official fluff), GW's background actually does clearly include the elements you mentioned. I don't know why this seems to be such a common misconception, but I believe it's one of those urban myths that stems from people looking more to various fan analysis rather than what the books themselves actually say.

"A Chapter consists of ten Companies each numbering 100 Space Marines. A Company consists of ten squads of ten men including a Sergeant. In addition to this basic fighting unit, each company has its own Captain, Standard Bearer, Chaplain and Apothecary. [...] A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the Company organisation. These individuals are known as the Headquarters staff and they may be assigned to fight with a Company in battle. Included amongst them are psychic Librarians from the Chapter’s Librarius and Techmarines, together with their Servitors."
- WD #252 Index Astartes

^ the above was also included in several Space Marine codices, starting with the 2nd edition Codex Ultramarines.

It's absolutely okay to still pursue a different interpretation, but in this instance at least, GW's numbers do add up, and nothing has been omitted.

Except that the Ultramarines force he listed also comes from a Codex. It's right in the back of the 3rd Edition Codex, and clearly states that all the vehicles in the armory have their own crews.

So I'm not sure what myth you refer to, aside from your myth that nothing and everything is canon because of how you choose to interpret somebody's statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gilamonster wrote:
I was wondering can space marines really replace losses it seems to me that the scout company could never be able to make up losses in any reasonable time except maybe the black templars and space wolves. It takes years to fully make a space marine and they have to survive the scouts. So I was just wondering if I'm the only one who notice and or cares.

There's going to be a pipeline of recruits behind the Scout Companies too.

However, Space Marine losses are always much lighter in the fluff than they are on the tabletop. Remember, the tabletop isn't supposed to be an accurate depiction of the 40K universe. The tabletop game is pointed out to recreate battles between even forces on even terrain. This almost never actually happens in warfare. And it certainly wouldn't happen with Space Marines, who are a surgical force. Space Marines are also scaled back on the tabletop so that you need to buy more of them, lol. Why can one Space Marine Chapter turn the tide in a fight against Orks for a Hive World, but not do so on the tabletop? Well, if you only needed fifteen Space Marine models to play a 1500 point battle, then Games Workshop wouldn't be able to sell as much overpriced plastic. Well, that, and why would you spend hundreds of dollars on another army if you could spend a fraction of it on your Space Marine army?

That, and the fluff very often describes Space Marine chapters that do suffer horrendous casualties because of some battlefield misfortune, and how long it takes them to recover. The Crimson Fists, Invaders, etc.

Hi new here, but fluff is fun so a good place to post.

I agree that there is a pipeline of varying stages of recruitment. And if we know anything about bureaucracy it's that there are often very very technical terms associated with certain things. Like "noncombat troops" which are basically combat troops which have been given a different title at a whim in order to make claims like "We have withdrawn X troops from X country".

So you could have the scenario in which only 1000 "active duty" space marines are permitted, but you could have thousands of "staff personnel" aboard the ships or at outposts and still be within semantic correctness.

Another thing to consider is that at this advanced stage of technology that they have complex statistical models that determine the average rate of replenishment for any given chapter and have streamlined the process to a factory type flow in which new Marines are good to go pretty much the moment a loss occurs.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Except that the Ultramarines force he listed also comes from a Codex. It's right in the back of the 3rd Edition Codex, and clearly states that all the vehicles in the armory have their own crews. So I'm not sure what myth you refer to

The myth that GW "omits all the HQ's and techmarines etc". Just like it says in the quote in my post. You even quoted it yourself...?

Which, by the way, wasn't even the case in the 3rd Edition Codex list you are referring to.

Which, also by the way, isn't even the force he listed, as Chronus is from the 5th Edition Codex and did not exist in 3E.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[...] aside from your myth that nothing and everything is canon because of how you choose to interpret somebody's statement.

I never said "nothing and everything is canon". I said "there is no canon". Or, alternatively, "nothing and everything is true", which isn't actually something by me but rather a quote from Marc Gascogne he made for White Dwarf, back when he was still Chief Editor of the Black Library.

And I'd be interested to see how you explain how the quotes I posted here can be interpreted in any other way.