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Some Throne-Forsaken Battlefield on the other side of the Galaxy

So, as most people who have played DoW and know a reasonable amount about 40k lore have probably noticed, DoW is full of lore violations. I shall enumerate them for those who haven't played the game or didn't notice them:

-In the original, the Biel-Tan forces are led by a Farseer and use Guardians as their basic Infantry. This isn't impossible, but is improbable.
-In Dark Crusade, the Tau are oddly calm about the death of their Ethereal.
-In Dark Crusade, Marines, Tau and a bunch of other odd armies can try to gain the favor of a Khorne Daemon.
- In Dark Crusade, references are made to Ogryns beating up a Commissar. Ogryns are much to loyal to do this.
-In Soulstorm, Kaurava-1 has a Guard garrison despite being of no discernible tactical value and having the population to support a PDF.
-In Soulstorm, factions besides Eldar and DE can use ancient webway gates.
-In Soulstorm, one Guard regiment kills a ton of other armies. This would be nigh-impossible.
-In Soulstorm, 100 Baneblades are sent to one system.
In Soulstorm, Guard and Marines fight without a clear reason.
-In Soulstorm, Kaurava-1 can produce Baneblades despite not being a forge world.
-In Retribution, Guardsmen seem to have an unusually large knowledge of Chaos.
-In Retribution, Kyras is able to manipulate Eldar, but is outsmarted by an IG General in the Guard campaign.

So, my question is, should DoW be considered canon?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/14 17:15:31


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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






From Derbyshire, currently in Yorkshire

No, its a computer game designed to be entertaining.

 
   
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Trustworthy Shas'vre




I say we use the it's cannon to someone sticker. The games don't really extend into any other stories so their shouldn't be any damage if you declare it all cannon.

Then again, we can pick an chose the pieces we like well ignoring the pieces we don't like as much.
   
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Jealous that Horus is Warmaster




I would take them as canon over the books that were based on them. Personally, none of those are really that big of a deal unless you have such a narrow view of the background that you couldn't possibly rationalize them.

The only one that most people complain about is the 100 Baneblade bit, but it's not how you described it. Kauruva was a system that manufactured baneblades, so it's not that 100 baneblades were sent there, it's that they were already there and then were suddenly lost right before a battle. So really Soulstorm is the only one that I don't consider canon. However, the main reason isn't because of any of the reasons that were listed, but because Soulstorm wasn't made by Relic like all the others. It was made by Iron Lore, who despite their name, are not known for their fantastic grip of the setting.
   
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Hunting the Matriarchy

Some of the things you mentioned aren't really "violations" so much as they're improbable.

Most specifically all the things involving the Guard's competence.

Gaunt and his Ghosts have out-badass'd Space Marines, outwitted Inquisitors and single-handily broken the backs of an army billions strong (Necropolis).

Are we to assume that the Gaunt's Ghosts series isn't "canon" based upon those things, or should we just assume that the Tanith First and Only is exceptionally good at what they do?

Anyway, inB4"hurreverythingiscanonnothingiscanonhurr".

"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche'. - Games Workshop 2014 Financial Report

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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

DOOMBREAD wrote:So, my question is, should DoW be considered canon?
*bust out ye olde tome o' quotes*

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Militant Elana Melanthis (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia) 
   
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Eye of Terror

Hell yes it should be. It is a story just like any book by the black library.
   
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According to the video game, Vect is dead. Which im not willing to believe.
Canon.

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons."
 
   
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Manhunter






Little Rock AR

Lynata wrote:
DOOMBREAD wrote:So, my question is, should DoW be considered canon?
*bust out ye olde tome o' quotes*

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden


What is canon? None of it. All of it. Two sides of the same coin (or some other cliche crap)

Proud to be Obliviously Blue since 2011!

 
   
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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What is canon? None of it. All of it. Two sides of the same coin (or some other cliche crap)
Basically, yeah. In a way, we all have our own "canon" - and what we choose to add to it is up to us.

As for the instances discussed in the thread - like BaxicanX said, a lot can be explained/excused with liberal use of artistic leeway. For example, maybe an Ogryn beat up a Commissar because he executed a Guardsman (or another Ogryn!) that Ogryn favoured. Maybe Kaurava's strategic value are its Baneblade production capabilities. Maybe the Guard garrison is there because it's the leftover from some crusade that swept through the system a few generations ago, liberating it from the Orks (which were never fully eradicated, as the game says). Maybe, Kaurava's Guard regiment is just really huge - and for what it's worth, neither the Space Marines nor the Adepta Sororitas are geared for attrition warfare. And so on.

Not saying that you can explain everything without throwing up some conflict, mind you. The more you go into detail, the more you discover the little differences in the various writers' personal version of the setting. Consistency simply isn't mandatory in this franchise - indeed, according to ADB, some authors even seem to frown upon "copying" others' ideas too closely. *shrugs*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/14 03:11:25


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Militant Elana Melanthis (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia) 
   
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USA: Blacksburg, VA

I don't see why not. The story of the first DoW game and DoW2 are pretty good IMO. The 3rd and 4th DoW1 expansions are a little more suspect. You just have to understand things in their context. If something happens that seems out of character for an army then examine if the design of the game forced that oddity. Trying to force numerous completely different armies/races through the same campaign story takes some comprise that isn't going to always allow good story telling.


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Expecting 40K to have Canon, when they retcon every five seconds, is a bit rich.

Take it as canon if you like, but don't get too bent out of shape about it

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phantommaster wrote:No, its a computer game designed to be entertaining.


That's the whole Warhammer storyline.

As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.

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Jollydevil wrote:According to the video game, Vect is dead. Which im not willing to believe.
Canon.


Vect actually disappears back through the webgate, it's that sniveling failure of a backstabber that fails to live.

-In Dark Crusade, the Tau are oddly calm about the death of their Ethereal.


The planet is mostly tau, and then near 100% of them evacuate as he dies..That's failing some of those low LD check's alright.



- In Dark Crusade, references are made to Ogryns beating up a Commissar. Ogryns are much to loyal to do this.


Depending, you've got Ogryn like the SC one who kills a commissar who shoots a leader, and than there's "easily tricked ones" who are able to be fooled that commissars are the bad people.

.

-In Soulstorm, factions besides Eldar and DE can use ancient webway gates.


Chaos, space marines, and all but Tau and necron have proven to be able to use it, and tau havn't really encountered it.


In Soulstorm, Guard and Marines fight without a clear reason.


Not really hard to decipher here, the problem with Blood Ravens is that they really want to keep secrets, IG poking around in area's with high amounts of secrets to them usually get them a bit nervous round others poking into it.


-In Retribution, Guardsmen seem to have an unusually large knowledge of Chaos.
-In Retribution, Kyras is able to manipulate Eldar, but is outsmarted by an IG General in the Guard campaign.


The first is explained by...Y'know, the chaos attack just very recently? The whole Giant Nurgle Daemon? The Black Legion warband? Kinda self explanatory.

As for the second, you can find plenty of instances in fluff where Eldar have been outwitted by Orks! It all depends on how well things go generally.
   
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Hunting the Matriarchy

BlaxicanX wrote:

Anyway, inB4"hurreverythingiscanonnothingiscanonhurr".
Lynata wrote:*bust out ye olde tome o' quotes*

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden


Ahhha. :p

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/14 07:49:28


"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche'. - Games Workshop 2014 Financial Report

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The games, hell yeah. All of them were quite good IMHO. The books written on those games (Goto) should never be considered canon, NEVER!.
   
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The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

The magical space angles that the SoBs summoned in Soulstorm made it hard for me to reconcile them with canon.

No, stop it. I know someone out there is gearing up to point to Saint Celestine and claim it's the same thing. It's not. Stop it now. Thank you.

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Sweden

htj wrote:The magical space angles that the SoBs summoned in Soulstorm made it hard for me to reconcile them with canon.

No, stop it. I know someone out there is gearing up to point to Saint Celestine and claim it's the same thing. It's not. Stop it now. Thank you.


But it is.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But even so, trying to imply any real level of organisation within 4chan is like trying to nail jelly to a wall. It's a formless bunch that occasionally congeals to form something, but it's gone just as quickly as it arrived.
JPong wrote:
I don't get this. There has been some sort of revisionist history going on here (and other places) every time this topic comes up. They all just keep swearing that Fifth was assault oriented. Even assault armies were taking troops so they could get more razorbacks or rhinos or psyweapons. There is a reason Tyranids did poorly in this "assault" edition, and it has nothing to do with their assault units being bad in the context of Fifth.
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The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
htj wrote:The magical space angles that the SoBs summoned in Soulstorm made it hard for me to reconcile them with canon.

No, stop it. I know someone out there is gearing up to point to Saint Celestine and claim it's the same thing. It's not. Stop it now. Thank you.


But it is.


*explodes*

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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

BlaxicanX wrote:Ahhha. :p
Hey, just trying to spread the "news". It's amazing how many people still believe this is a consistent setting where stuff ties into each other.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Militant Elana Melanthis (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia) 
   
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Ascalam wrote:Expecting 40K to have Canon, when they retcon every five seconds, is a bit rich.


That is a good point. Does the fluff section of 6th have any major retconing?

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At the end of the Dark Crusade campaign, Tau won over all other factions. And SM won over all other factions. And Chaos won over all other factions. And Orks won over all other factions. And Sororitas won over all other factions (culling all remaining Space Marines BTW) ...

Or maybe not all parallel endings are canon in the 40k universe

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The Dusk-Wraiths of Szith Morcane (my Dark Eldar blog): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364786.page
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Kroothawk wrote:At the end of the Dark Crusade campaign, Tau won over all other factions. And SM won over all other factions. And Chaos won over all other factions. And Orks won over all other factions. And Sororitas won over all other factions (culling all remaining Space Marines BTW) ...

Or maybe not all parallel endings are canon in the 40k universe


The canonical victors of Dark Crusade were the Blood Ravens.

The canonical victors of Soulstorm were the Guardsmen.
   
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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Sencho wrote:That is a good point. Does the fluff section of 6th have any major retconing?
The interesting bit about the 6E rulebook is that - or this is the impression I got, at least - they've made everything even less detailed and more vague than it was before. Fewer "hard" numbers, replaced by more general descriptors such as "many" or "countless". If this was intentional, I bet it was to limit conflicts with the various licensed products that tend to go into greater detail (and may at times deviate).

I didn't notice any direct major "retcons" to earlier GW material, though, except that Black Ship guard duty now seems to be done by ISTs by default, whereas before it also mentioned the SoB. Maybe there's more, but my own knowledge of the studio fluff is focused on the Sisters and the IG, and most of the fluff section deals with Marine stuff.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Militant Elana Melanthis (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia) 
   
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Seattle

The magical space angles that the SoBs summoned in Soulstorm made it hard for me to reconcile them with canon.


Did Lovecraft and some non-Euclidean geometry make an appearance in DoW that I somehow missed?

Was this a DLC pack I didn't download?

Where were these magical space angles involved??

Oh.... wait. You meant "angels"? They're Living Saints. You should read a Codex.

Currently running:
Seven Saints of Talis, a post-apocalyptic Dark Heresy campaign.

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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Psienesis wrote:Where were these magical space angles involved??
Oh.... wait. You meant "angels"? They're Living Saints. You should read a Codex.
I believe he's referring to these. I have no idea why it should not be connected to the Living Saints as htj claims, however, at least the way my theory on the Saints' origin works.

That being said, these "Avenging Angels" are certainly way more flashy than what we are used to from the studio material, more in line with FFG's "Sisters Magic" than GW's ambiguity. The same goes for their bolters suddenly starting to shoot beams of light when they trigger the Act of Faith. Then again, as far as I recall any and all armies in DoW have some fancy FX that one wouldn't really expect on a battlefield, so most of it can probably be chalked up to simple game mechanics (designers often mention on how such abilities need to be made excessivly visible so they can be recognized, giving them a unique appearance and so on).

If one were to go by Marc Gascogne's explanation on how the discrepancies between the various sources should be explained, your Soulstorm match isn't actually a "live" event but a visual retelling of some battle the Sisters fought hundreds or thousands of years ago, with the narrator (the game) purposely exaggerating certain details to make the story more awesome. You know, like Varric in Dragon Age 2.

"... and then the Canoness called upon the aid of her slain Sisters who descended from the heavens to join the fray ... I swear, that's how it went! I heard it from the altar boy of a Confessor who has been there!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/14 20:30:26


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Militant Elana Melanthis (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia) 
   
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Swansea

Depends, assuming your not veiwing all 40k literature as some hypothetical sky god than who;s to say the information your given is legit or not? Imperial Administration lies to the masses almost all the time (In accurate parody to real world governments) The 40k universe is a constant war. In War history can only be written by a victor then called truth by consensus, the war of 40k is unending, no victor, everyone writes the history. From the perspective of the imperial guard fighting in that area vect may be dead, is he? probably not, but the guardsmen sleep easier because their colnel said he was and they won.

If you assume that 40k literature has in the SLIGHTEST bit an immersive element than from that standpoint you would now little more than a well travelled imperial citizen, stories that may or not be true, but even if they are false, still shape the reality you inhabit.


Long Story short, DoW is part of the 40k IP, GW liscensed it and its writers to craft story and gameplay, that makes it canon, wether its true within that canon is a totally different story and question.
   
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Jollydevil wrote:According to the video game, Vect is dead. Which im not willing to believe. Canon.


Well, Dark Eldar do have the ability to save a person just by cloning his body. So Vect was killed, but his finger was recovered and regrown by Urien Rakarth(for 500 slaves and the key to Lelith's bedroom)

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Blood Ravens are in the Space Marine Codex, so yes
   
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danp164 wrote:Long Story short, DoW is part of the 40k IP, GW liscensed it and its writers to craft story and gameplay, that makes it canon, wether its true within that canon is a totally different story and question.

GW also licenced CS Goto to write 40k novels, so ...

Guess I rather believe Gav Thorpe, Andy Hoare and Aaron Dembski-Bowden that there is no canon.

Hive Fleet Ouroboros (my Tyranid blog): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/286852.page
The Dusk-Wraiths of Szith Morcane (my Dark Eldar blog): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364786.page
Kroothawk's Malifaux Blog http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/455759.page
If you want to understand the concept of the "Greater Good", read this article, and you never again call Tau commies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism 
   
 
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