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Made in us
Lost Wolf Lord with Mark of the Wulfen






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:Same tautology.

Is repeating tautology over and over again also a tautology?

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Made in us
[MOD]
Defensor Mundi






Richmond, VA

Nope.

Here is a that you may find helpful: wikipedia.org

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/19 21:17:05


 
   
Made in us
Lost Wolf Lord with Mark of the Wulfen






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:Nope.

Here is a that you may find helpful: wikipedia.org


Thanks, but I was being silly since you were being repetitive. Also, I think you're looking for the word 'link' in that sentence.

Want to know how to print your ePubs for use at games without bringing a digital device? http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Printing_ePubs

Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Want to know your rumor monger's history? Check out the Ongoing Rumor Accuracy Tracking thread

"For this thread to have some utility and remain useful, please refrain from spamming it with 'jokes'." - Alpharius
"Irrational negativity is the engine that drives the forums" - BrassScorpion
"It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid." - Redbeard 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Defensor Mundi






Richmond, VA

I wasn't being.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Repetitive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/19 21:32:16


 
   
Made in us
Lost Wolf Lord with Mark of the Wulfen






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:You argument is a tautology: TFG is TFG.


Manchu wrote:Same tautology.


Manchu wrote:I wasn't being.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Repetitive.


Okay, but you were being hilarious.

Want to know how to print your ePubs for use at games without bringing a digital device? http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Printing_ePubs

Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Want to know your rumor monger's history? Check out the Ongoing Rumor Accuracy Tracking thread

"For this thread to have some utility and remain useful, please refrain from spamming it with 'jokes'." - Alpharius
"Irrational negativity is the engine that drives the forums" - BrassScorpion
"It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid." - Redbeard 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Defensor Mundi






Richmond, VA

I think I will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keep intentionally forgetting to finish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sentences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all seriousness: when you set up your opponent as wrong it's just begging the question. It's okay for people to get worked up over things they care about. Just because I don't care as much doesn't mean they are out of line. And to characterize them as having a tantrum or other kind of fit is just more of the same loading the question, exactly what I was criticizing ADB for doing.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/04/19 21:52:56


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Manchu wrote:It's kind of a lie, though, isn't it, that this guy was playing 40k and then just started writing BL novels? He was writing for White Wolf before and I think also Mongoose. I've never seen him post a battle report or a painting blog or even start a discussion thread about the fluff. (TBF, haven't gone looking, either.)


You're kidding, right? You're saying I just... lie? And you say it with no evidence at all; you even say you have no evidence, but you just assume it, anyway? It would've taken less time to check and realise you were wrong, than it took to insult me in that sentence.

Also, I freelanced for RPG companies while I was working in a bookstore for a few years. I'm not sure how that means I don't like 40K, or how it's actually relevant to my hobbying or my free time. Does a job stop you playing games? What's the difference between working in an office on a spreadsheet, and working in an office on RPGs? I'm not sure I see the correlation between writing RPGs and not ever playing 40K. It was a job, like any other.

Also, I've said in practically every interview (when I'm inevitably asked) that I play, and - not that it's somehow necessary - but I've posted hobby threads on B&C, as well as my blog and my Facebook. I had a Necromunda campaign weekend 3 weeks ago, with pictures (gasp!), you strangely suspicious fellow. I'm running a campaign with several GW folks in it, with 18 of us in total. There's even our opening fiction online (though with recent team-switches, we need to redo it. Gah. Gah!)

Seriously, what a weird thing to accuse someone of lying about. Why was that your natural reaction, dude? I'm curious.

Also, accusing me of never starting a thread to discuss the fluff is slightly terrifying. Again, a three second Google check will show pretty high post counts where I do nothing but discuss the fluff, for several hours a week. At this point, I realise you even said this was all a guess as you didn't check to see the truth either way, but seriously, it's a frighteningly wild guess, and you seemed so coldly sure of it. Why was your first instinct to assume such weird malice and forethought?

Manchu wrote:I have, by contrast, seen him swoop into discussions to defend against criticism of his work.


Ah, I think I see the crux of the matter. I don't post here much. On Heresy-Online, Bolter and Chainsword, the BL Bolthole, WarSeer, and even on /tg/, I post on a bunch of topics. I don't think anyone can accuse me of just posting to defend my work; at least, not with a straight face. My post count is pretty huge on other forums, and I hardly ever need to "defend" my work. Part of the reason is because I'm very, very, very lucky - I don't get much negative reaction, especially in relative terms compared to X, Y or Z. The only time I posted here to defend criticism of my work was when the criticism blatantly and provably got the facts wrong. That made it either a lie or a misunderstanding, depending on rage levels. But overall, there's much less to post about on DD, because there's such little BL discussion here. Besides, I can't live my whole life on forums. I already spend an average of about 2-3 hours a day on them, mostly stealing conversion ideas or answering questions.


Manchu wrote:Which is basically what he's doing in this article, sans swoop. I guess when people come to your soapbox, swooping is a bit like stooping. Anyway, all that playing and painting and ... er .. fandom is really for people who like trivial, irritating things like poor Fan #3,974,910.

Good thing Fan #3,974,910 has Aaron's sympathy.


You're vastly, vastly taking that out of context, or misunderstanding it to be deliberately obtuse. The reason I'm a "fan darling" (to use your phrase, which kinda makes me cringe) is because I categorically don't screw people around. You're twisting my words to reach the exact opposite conclusion. How did you take a paragraph about how I relate and sympathise, sharing the exact same concerns as a squillion fans, as somehow insulting? I write all that because I share the same concerns, not because I deride people for them.

That doesn't mean every single fan's attitude is equal, or they bring a point up in the same way. Some people act like jerks. Some people get overly anal, which is easy to do when you don't understand GW canon policy - because GW itself barely ever explains it. Which is why I chose to, through the medium of interpretive danc-- Uh, snarky humour in a single paragraph, amidst an entire essay that clearly shows I care.

But seriously, even that paragraph is hardly the vile insult you're insisting it is.

Manchu wrote:My problem is that any talk is not good talk. Trivializing your fandom is stupid and mean.


You genuinely took that from me spending hours and hours every single week trying to explain and help spread the word of how frustratingly difficult and unique GW canon is? I didn't write that article to sneer at people. I wrote it because GW will never explain it, and it's a headache for a bajillion fans who are in the dark and conflicting with each other. I like helping out. I like sharing the insight I'm lucky enough to get from seeing behind the curtain, which I do on several forums every day. I've literally never seen anyone paint me in that weirdly negative light before; I think if you tried to venture that opinion on a place where I actually post more often than once every six months, you'd be met with a pretty significant tide of "Dude, you might be making an error, there."


Manchu wrote:"It's all real and none of it's real" is not some spiritual insight or an invitation to creativity. It's a marketing strategy.


More than that, which is the significance you're missing. It's the company's policy, ineffectively translated to the fans, many of whom are in the dark about it, still discussing "canon" and never getting anywhere because that line of reasoning is a dead end. It's a key tenet to the 40K fandom, which has rarely been discussed beyond out of context quotes and vague innuendo. I was trying to bring it into some clarity, which - overwhelmingly - has had a positive reaction.

Manchu wrote:It's disingenuous to call yourself a fanboy when you're actually an employee churning out product. Calling yourself a fanboy is something of a marketing strategy itself, especially in the context of an apology for your employer, and it becomes an intolerable bit of self-delusion when you juxtapose against it against trivializing your fans and their experience of the franchise.


With the greatest respect, that's absolutely disgusting. A genuinely disgusting, sceptical, snide and dehumanising attitude. Great soundbite, but no application in reality. The reality was that I got in huge trouble for posting that (I'm almost always in trouble for one reason or another) because GW has little inclination to discuss it. The prevailing attitude is just to not mention it much at all. And there was no implied "apology for your employer". I'm just a freelancer. They're one of my publishers, nothing more. A beloved one, admittedly, but they hardly own my soul. I wrote it because I love the license, and I love discussing it, and highlighting things people never get the chance to see. That's literally it.

And I rarely use the term "fanboy", let alone apply it to myself. Maybe once in that article? While gushing about the license I love? How should I react, exactly? People ask me constantly about the hobby, and if I play X, Y or Z. I already post on several forums about it, as well as it being mentioned on my blog and Facebook a great deal. There's no scheming, sneering plot to appear in a certain way, and it's a little sinister you'd assume (indeed, insist) there is. What can I do in this context, exactly? It seems a matter of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What you're objecting to is that fact people seem to like the fact I game, and that I talk about it on the same level, rather than as an author who trickles out that ancient trope: "I'd love to play, but I don't have time." There's no need to assume malice or some artificial marketing nonsense. Dude, seriously, some people just like to game. I don't think you game to look any cooler as a Mod. Same rule applies. I don't even go out of my way to talk about it a lot and throw it in people's faces. I don't play up some nonsensical 'people's champion' silliness. People constantly ask me about it. I didn't start by fostering the image of it; why would that even occur to me? (I'm not exactly a planner.) It comes up when it comes up, and people have reacted well to it.

Seriously. Very, very sinister suspicions. You gave me a lot of malicious motivations, and I can't quite work out why.

EDIT: I should add, I'm not annoyed or anything. Sliiiiiightly uncomfortable, but I assume, insist, and accuse people in various licenses of way worse schemes and way more sinister plots. It's all good; I think I know where you're coming from. It's easy to assume these things a lot of the time.

EDIT II: THE REVENGE OF EDITING: All the typos, ever.

EDIT III: EDIT HARDER: Yet more typos. Someone get me an editor.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2012/06/19 09:43:57


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor




Hunting the Patriarchy

Verbally tabled. lol

Just tab over to another thread Manchu. Don't even reply.

"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche'. - Games Workshop 2014 Financial Report

4-0-1
2-0-1
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1-0-0 
   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator





Maybe if they get a new codex, Ward will write them. They'll be sure to get a few victories then

Tau, Dark Eldar and Inquisition 40K player, occasional Lizardman Fantasy player, proud Lord of the Rings player and Rebel X-Wing player

> 4000 pts 1500 pts 1500 pts 1500pts

Ascalam wrote:Only the Eldar could party hard enough to rip a hole in the material universe, and then stage an after-party in the webway like nothing happened
 
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

But at what cost...

Also, hi there, ADB! o/ Cool to see a post from you here, especially on a topic like this. As for Manchu's post, I think part of his perception (not that stuff about fan treatment) stems from that blog article being a bit vague and possibly defensive. The latter is understandable, given that you're talking about your own work and likely do not appreciate it being considered "just another opinion" when you would, or so I assume, rather try to leave your mark on the franchise, like many of us might dream to.

In the end, perhaps it is not as ... "clear-cut" as Gav Thorpe's blogpost on the subject of canon, or even Andy Hoare's small comment in yours. Maybe it's my personal thirst for clarification on the subject, but "it's all real and none of it is real" is, to me, too much of an oxymoron. I realize what you meant, but without exact clarification it creates more confusion when your intention was the opposite.

Thanks for writing about that stuff at all, though. I wish more authors would try to clear up this mess, as I agree that people "being left in the dark" isn't very helpful to the fandom as a whole. It creates too much confusion and too much of a drive to sort "wrong fluff" from "right fluff", or attempt to treat any and all personal interpretations as gospel just because they were published under the label - I fell victim to this myself until I realized the mistake, and your article actually did play a role in that.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Militant Elana Melanthis (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia) 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Lynata wrote:...stems from that blog article being a bit vague and possibly defensive. The latter is understandable, given that you're talking about your own work and likely do not appreciate it being considered "just another opinion" when you would, or so I assume, rather try to leave your mark on the franchise, like many of us might dream to.


I don't see it as defensive (it's not my license, I don't own it, I just enjoy sharing how it works - and I don't really see it as defensive because apart from the joke email at the start, I've barely ever been 'attacked' about the IP or canon at all, ever), but it's definitely vague. That's because... there's nothing else. What I spilled out in the article is the alpha and the omega of the subject. There's nothing else to learn on the matter. Not because I wrote a genius article, but because there's simply no more information. That's how the company treats canon. End of story.

There's that episode of Futurama where Bender has that tiny species living on his chestplate, talking to him all the time, believing he's God; and when they're about to die, they say they'll "Be with you soon, Lord." And his reply? "You're with me now. This is the maximum level of being with me." It's sorta like that. There's no more detail to be had. That article is the maximum level of GW canon explanation there is. I wish it wasn't, trust me. I did it because there was nothing else out there to link to, though. I felt like someone had to say something.


Lynata wrote:Maybe it's my personal thirst for clarification on the subject, but "it's all real and none of it is real" is, to me, too much of an oxymoron. I realize what you meant, but without exact clarification it creates more confusion when your intention was the opposite.


Sort of. I mean, I see your point, but this is a preference thing, and not a failing in the IP. The IP works fine. The flaw is in the way canon is communicated, because it so rarely gets a mention. The flaw is in how people try to apply other licenses' attitudes to canon, then blame 40K for not making sense. Well, no, of course not. That's like assuming a tree is a banana tree, then saying it's wrong for having apples in its branches. The tree's fine. The expectation is what was wrong. The guy who sold the tree who never made it clear what kind of tree it was surely takes some of the blame, too.

Yeah, a lot of people prefer situations of clear-cut canon, like Star Wars, where all that jazz is delineated up to 11, but it's wrong to assume "It's all true and nothing is true" is a bug, when it's a feature - or, worse, to assume it's "a marketing strategy". Like, to dismiss it as just that? That's not just ludicrously disrespectful to the people behind the license, it's also arrogant and uninformed, to just blithely insist that's all it is, just because someone would prefer it if it was X, when it's really Y.

"It's all true and nothing is true" looks, at first, like it's limiting, rather than freeing or empowering. Some people will never, ever prefer it, no matter what. That doesn't mean the guy pointing it out is being defensive about it, just because he happens to see value in it. It took me years to see that value. I like it now, but it took a long-ass time for me to come around to that way of thinking.

Don't get me wrong, I shared the desire for personal clarification for a long time, but once I learned that wasn't how the license worked, it didn't bother me anymore. That's not how the license works. It's not worth my anger, or my insisting that it should work that way. Every creator, contributor, player and reader sees it all in their own way, from a selection of the information offered. 10 years ago, that vagueness infuriated me. Now I think that freedom is awesome. Without it, 40K would suffer severely, given the fact it's a setting with such, uh, colourful roots. Change, clarification, evolution, development... everything that's come since Rogue Trader has come because it's all true and nothing is true. Some bad, some good, all dependent on personal taste. Mostly good, I reckon.

"It's all true and none of it's true" means, at its core: "There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."

From Marc Gascoigne's explanation:

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me."
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Do you think that 40k would be better or worse if they did a reboot/continuity tidy up every now and again or not ?

Like Paramount did with Trek

.. bad example there perhaps...

like DC comics do every XX years.

Chance to say that this is in whilst that is out and so on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 13:49:23


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
We made gods and jailers because we felt small and alone," he said. "We let them try us and judge us and, like lambs to the slaughter, we allowed ourselves to be... sentenced. See! Now! Our sentence is up.
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Defensor Mundi






Richmond, VA

I'll hand it to you, Aaron, your forum posts are as colorful as your fiction. I'm flattered to be the subject of a genuine Dembski-Bowden study in villainy. I posted what I confess to be mostly vitriol two months ago, long enough ago that I had entirely forgotten I even wrote it and had to hunt it down after you PMed me about it. I was able to find it quickly because it was your only post on Dakka since three months before. You broke your three-month absence from our little community to swoop in to defend yourself.

But anyway, like I said, I admit that my posts were pretty vitriolic. As to why so, well, I found your point to be (I'll borrow a phrase from you) absolutely disgusting. Even clarified here to myself and Lynata, I still think it's bollocks. You yourself just posted that GW is intentionally vague about this "everything/nothing is canon" mentality, going so far as to scold you for even discussing it -- and yet at the same time, you insist this is more than a business scheme. You're right, I shouldn't manufacture explanations for why you'd insist this is anything but absurd and I do (really, all joking aside) apologize for having done so before.

But even taking the sting out of it, I still disagree. The "narrative first" approach to continuity is indeed liberating but it's not what GW does. The best BL book ever published is stamped "heretical tome," after all. This isn't a multiverse that embraces the wild excursions of talented imaginations. It's a business proposition that rewards sales with pseudo-canonicity. As a comicbook fan, I'm cool with that. What irks me is pretending that it's something profound. If it was so profound, then why would you get into trouble for talking about it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 14:39:04


 
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Dead Blue Clown wrote:Yeah, a lot of people prefer situations of clear-cut canon, like Star Wars, where all that jazz is delineated up to 11, but it's wrong to assume "It's all true and nothing is true" is a bug, when it's a feature - or, worse, to assume it's "a marketing strategy".
Don't get me wrong, I understand the meaning behind it, I just don't quite agree with the way this formula is worded. Whilst "nothing is true" does not pose any problems by itself, the "it's all true" part does not work when so many bits of fluff contradict each other. It makes more sense when one considers the aspect of perspective (or an individual author's interpretation/preference), but even then it's more like "all can be true" rather than "all is true". Small but (possibly) important difference, at least in a debate about a topic as important as this, where any and all quotes are generally placed on golden scales. I have no idea whether this idiom actually works outside of Germany...

It's further complicated by the books being written not like a historical record (which, like all historical records, can be flawed) but in 3rd person observer + present time, so I guess it's no wonder that many take everything they read as a supposedly accurate depiction.

The "market strategy" bit likely comes from GW avoiding to clarify the issue. It would be comparatively easy to issue a formal statement making everything obvious, but as this may result in some people (the ones clinging solely to the "it's all true" stance) placing less value on the products, this may be interpreted as intention (and thus a market strategy) when it's possibly just laziness/disinterest (the powers-that-be regarding it as a non-issue).

I do like the banana-tree comparison, though. Expectations are the big issue here, and not in the least because much of the fandom continues to propagate them to newcomers. It's how I picked them up "back then", though experiences with other franchises as well as a lack of a properly communicated official stance did play a role as well.

reds8n wrote: Do you think that 40k would be better or worse if they did a reboot/continuity tidy up every now and again or not ?
Doesn't GW already do that, as far as their codices are concerned?

If this refers to BL, I think the whole point of the issue is that there is no actual continuity - and many authors seem to prefer it this way, as it provides them with much more freedom to exert their own ideas. Especially in cases where, as ADB wrote in his blog, "X sucks, and so does the guy writing it".

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Militant Elana Melanthis (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia) 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Manchu wrote:I'll hand it to you, Aaron, your forum posts are as colorful as your fiction. I'm flattered to be the subject of a genuine Dembski-Bowden study in villainy. I posted what I confess to be mostly vitriol two months ago, long enough ago that I had entirely forgotten I even wrote it and had to hunt it down after you PMed me about it. I was able to find it quickly because it was your only post on Dakka since three months before. You broke your three-month absence from our little community to swoop in to defend yourself.


I have the beginnings of a thrilling headcold, and I'm sleeping a mighty 2-3 hours a night thanks to a recent spawning. But I still can't believe I thread-necro'd like that. Oh, man. I blame distraction. I did that "THIS MUST BE TODAY" thing and posted right away. (Incidentally, I was here logged-out and looking for Obliterator conversion ideas to steal. Don't judge me. Don't you dare.)

Anyway. Blah. My point is this: I getcha. I think it's a Marmite kinda thing. Love? Hate? Understand why people eat the scrapings of fermented filth? Never comprehend why someone would subject their tongue to such an assault? And so on.

I think what I failed to say with any clarity is that I get what GW mean (...after many, many years of not getting it) but even I don't think it's the most elegant solution. I just sorta run with it because I like it, and it makes sense to me at this point of my hobbying. I wouldn't genuinely try to convince everyone in the world it's flawless (though I do think it has a lot of awesomeness in it). It could definitely be worded better (re: Lynata's point), but I was careful to go with a direct quote in that instance. An oft-used one, at that.

Like, I don't think it's profound. It was certainly a massive headsplosion for me when it clicked after they kept explaining it, but my, uh, awe(?) comes from seeing how all the stuff I'd seen as canon conflicts and genuine errors started to look more like intentional retcons, clever subversions, and alternate takes on the lore - along with, of course, some genuine errors. I don't think it's a profound concept, but I do think it's quite unique as an IP standpoint, and that counts. That's certainly what made me go "...oh," when they explained it. "Multiverse" has connotations that aren't entirely accurate, but it's closer to that than, say, Star Wars. Ultimately, it's a different thing to everyone, and you choose the perspectives you prefer.

As to me being in trouble for the column, I think it comes down to GW not liking one person's viewpoint to ever be taken as gospel. I mean, I ran that by several people in the company, some involved right in the IP Department, and said "Before I post this, this is how it works, right?" But I can still see why GW itself doesn't want any one designer / author / freelancer / former employee / whatever's opinion standing the test of time online. I mean, what if it changes? Etc. etc. I can criticise GW as much as anyone, but that makes business sense, so I don't tend to rage against that particular machine.

As to the vitriol; no harm, no foul. I've assumed way worse things about much worthier people. Let's do beer. Or a smoothie. I'm open to either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 15:12:50


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Defensor Mundi






Richmond, VA

All my ranting aside, here is my real point:
Fluff discussions are how fans transform the bitter experience of being (ineffectually) marketed to into the meaningful experience of exploration and enjoyment.
I don't think GW's IP People or even the authors, as nice as I'm sure they all are IRL, get to take credit for that transformation -- and especially not as a result of allowing the setting to blow hither and thither as the brand identity developed. As to not wanting you to be laying down the word on canon, well, even that is a bit iffy: after all, we've all been quoting Gav Thorpe on this for years and years.

In the end, I don't think companies and consumers can really overcome their inherent conflicts of interest to meaningfully "collaborate" on the experience of fandom. We've been making that assumption ("they really care") for so long despite it never being the case. Kickstarter is premised on this myth, for example. This seems a bitter remark (whatever, I like the pith of it), but the GW IP doesn't really merit the fan base it enjoys. To me, the "loose canon" mentality kind of proves that.
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It'll be on me, one way or another.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/19 16:21:18


 
   
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Seattle

In the end, I don't think companies and consumers can really overcome their inherent conflicts of interest to meaningfully "collaborate" on the experience of fandom. We've been making that assumption ("they really care") for so long despite it never being the case. Kickstarter is premised on this myth, for example. This seems a bitter remark (whatever, I like the pith of it), but the GW IP doesn't really merit the fan base it enjoys. To me, the "loose canon" mentality kind of proves that.


Eh... as a long-time fan of the 40K setting (going back some 20 years now) I... can't really agree with that. The 40K setting is pretty fething cool, it combines elements from so many other things that I, personally, find cool that it becomes greater than the sum of its parts. Sci-Fi, in all its flavors? Cool. Dystopian fiction? Cool. Military fiction? Cool. Cloak-and-dagger and noir detective tales? Cool. Altered/Subverted Western Religion Tropes? Cool. Ripped dudes and hot chicks in power armor smashing some dude's face through a concrete wall? Cool. Zombies? Pirates? Rebels? Magic? Angels? Demons? Monsters and aliens? Judge Dredd? Elves in Space? Orcs in Space? All cool.

So, taken in its entirety, I *do* think the 40K IP is worthy of the fan base it has attracted, simply because, for fans of sci-fi, it offers something for pretty much nearly everyone, even if we disagree on the fine details.

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I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

What I mean is that the devotion to reading all the books and putting a lot of thought into them and trying to conceive of this coherently ... well, GW doesn't support it at all. In fact, they actively oppose it because it might get in the way of turning Necrons into Tomb Kings or something similar. That's different from saying Tomb King Necrons aren't cool.
   
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Hmm... sort of. I think, for an individual or a group of friends that game together in the 40K setting, a sense of coherency and continuity is important, but your local gaming group is not my local gaming group, and so our versions of 40K do not need to be consistent.

Our group, for example, has a lot of Star Wars fans in it, so our "version" of 40K has a lot more droids in roles that may normally be filled by servitors. Frequently, when their Inquisition or Rogue Trader characters dock their voidship somewhere, there's bound to be a G0NK 'droid making its way around to recharge various devices and machines that run on electrical power. Our RT group even keeps one in the armory for keeping the las-gun power packs charged and operational. It's similar, but not *quite* the same 40K as others may use, where this action is done by a servitor, or some peon cog-polisher.

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Defensor Mundi






Richmond, VA

Somewhere, Kanluwen's head just exploded.
   
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Seattle

My work here is done.

Currently running:
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USA

I think mine did, too...

I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice. -- Theodore Parker
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Manchu wrote:Somewhere, Kanluwen's head just exploded.

My head's okay, but thanks for being concerned.
   
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oops

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 00:48:13


Oh my God! He wants to be a ballerina? That's MY f*#%ing dream! 
   
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For SoB being heroes... And this goes for the whole imperium.

Petting a cat does not excuse killing a thousand others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 20:39:28


 
   
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Seattle

Heroes are judged by their actions, not their morals.

Currently running:
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Confessor Of Sins






Oh, some necro!
Were you inspired by the recent release of Nagash?

I don't play Sisters of Battle, I play Sisters of Bitter. They are almost like Sisters of Battle, but rather than using Act of Faith, they use Act of Spite : they infuse their weapons (and whatever the Celestians are supposed to use in close combat, I guess their lipstick or something) with all their resentment for being the most neglected army still present in the setting.

The views expressed in the above post are my own views and unless stated otherwise I do not, in any way, shape or form, speak for or on the behalf of Games Workshop.
Novice from the Chapter of the Male Marines have to swear vows of chastity, obedience, cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the kids upon entering the Chapter. Their usual wargear include nipple rings, belly window armor, ass windows armor, power bikini and high heels. This gives them increased mobility, and they use their beautiful bodies to distract their opponents. Every other chapter in the whole universe is actually composed only of females. 
   
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-looks at the army of angry undead ghost space marines, saints frying daemons with golden energy despite being non-psykers, Living Saints, acts of faith, the GEOM visiting a near dead space marine, and Ciaphus Cain-

Yup. Pretty sure the GEOM is a warp entity at this point and SOB are indeed backed up by a warp god, along with everyone else in the Imperium. I mean really, the LOTD kinda puts the final nail in the coffin considering they're now described as actual ghosts if not even daemon-like by the new codex and the LOTD novel.

There isn't really any debate over whether or not the GEOM is a warp god, he clearly is at this point.

EDIT

And goddammit it's a necro.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 22:58:03


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”


 morganfreeman wrote:
[...but the fact that they [Orks] have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.
Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.
 
   
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Seattle

Since we're on the necro-kick...

... This is how FFG has been presenting the GEOM without outright stating it... but the Acts of Faith are so obviously, overtly, cannot-deny-it-without-looking-stupid flat-out miracle-magic that there is obviously some Warp Entity powering them.

Which is kinda stupid, really, but, then again, 40K has been getting kinda stupid lately in the fluff, with things like Murder McMurderson from planet MurderAllTheThings and so on...

And then there is Assholetep.

Currently running:
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 Psienesis wrote:
Murder McMurderson from planet MurderAllTheThings
So... Angron?

I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice. -- Theodore Parker
My blog
Just appearing as a woman online, it seems, can be enough to inspire abuse. In 2006, researchers from the University of Maryland set up a bunch of fake online accounts and then dispatched them into chat rooms. Accounts with feminine usernames incurred an average of 100 sexually explicit or threatening messages a day. Masculine names received 3.7.
-- Amanda Hess
 
   
 
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