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nosferatu1001 wrote:
They arent ICs, so avoid using the "Normal members" line

Isn't that the wording in the Tau codex for drones?

They are Jetpack Infantry; the MC is Jetpack MC.

Right - I'm not that dense.

My point is that the unit isn't purchased as a MC + drones... rather it's purchased as a MC that gets upgraded with drones.

The rule says that the drones are counted as members of the unit. That doesn't mean it changes any part of the drone's profile we're already given!?! Unless the drones should be wandering around with 5 Wounds as well...

I never said it changed their profile. It doesn't give them Smash either because they aren't MCs.

They're simply members of an MC unit.

This reminds of another mixed unit situation, Lone Wolves with Fenrisian Wolves. I'd say this all comes down to whether the Riptide unit is classified as a Monstrous Creature unit because the original model is a Monstrous Creature, or if it isn't because the drones aren't Monstrous Creatures, I haven't managed to find anything in the rules giving a clear answer.

rigeld2 wrote:
I never said it changed their profile. It doesn't give them Smash either because they aren't MCs.

They're simply members of an MC unit.

That's what I was getting at before - there aren't any rules for changing model types based on being in mixed units. So there isn't a rule that falls under "all rules purposes" that says, for instance, "models joining an existing unit inherit their type".
Or, to put it another way - being Jetpack Infantry in no way inhibits them being part of a unit with the Riptide.

 Super Ready wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I never said it changed their profile. It doesn't give them Smash either because they aren't MCs.

They're simply members of an MC unit.

That's what I was getting at before - there aren't any rules for changing model types based on being in mixed units. So there isn't a rule that falls under "all rules purposes" that says, for instance, "models joining an existing unit inherit their type".
Or, to put it another way - being Jetpack Infantry in no way inhibits them being part of a unit with the Riptide.

I'm in agreement. A Riptide on it's own is a 1-model Monstrous Creature unit, IMHO. Yes, the Jetpack Infantry join the squad, but it's still a Monstrous Creature unit.

 Super Ready wrote:
The rule says that the drones are counted as members of the unit. That doesn't mean it changes any part of the drone's profile we're already given!?! Unless the drones should be wandering around with 5 Wounds as well...

Well it says that they "act as additional squad members in all regards."

I'm in agreement. A Riptide on it's own is a 1-model Monstrous Creature unit, IMHO. Yes, the Jetpack Infantry join the squad, but it's still a Monstrous Creature unit.

This is HIWPI

I thought the wording was "for all rules purposes"? But again, either way... there's no rules to tell us that models can inherit unit types simply by being part of another unit.
Otherwise, all these questions about Eldar characters would be moot because a Jetbike Autarch joining a unit of infantry would suddenly lose use of the Jetbike type. Or have I missed something?

I'm really not sure I'm properly explaining where my train of thought is on this. Hopefully you know what I mean.

From what I can tell, you need an entirely homogeneous MC unit in order to make use of "Bring it down!"

I think it is an artifact of having an old codex that didn't account for mixed MC units and should be FAQed.

 Nilok wrote:
From what I can tell, you need an entirely homogeneous MC unit in order to make use of "Bring it down!"

I think it is an artifact of having an old codex that didn't account for mixed MC units and should be FAQed.

There's no reason for that assumption.

I'm going to need a citation that shows a unit type changes when upgrades are bought.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
From what I can tell, you need an entirely homogeneous MC unit in order to make use of "Bring it down!"

I think it is an artifact of having an old codex that didn't account for mixed MC units and should be FAQed.

There's no reason for that assumption.

I'm going to need a citation that shows a unit type changes when upgrades are bought.

Indeed.

Note that the entry states "Unit Type", and typically "Unit" refers to the whole squad. However, this brings in the interesting question as Drones themselves have a "Unit Type" that is different. So does this mean that "Unit" in this context refers to the whole squad still or individual models...?

Drones also have a rule saying they act as additional squad members in all regards.

Additional to what squad? The MC squad.
So changing the unit type of the unit would be breaking that rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
From what I can tell, you need an entirely homogeneous MC unit in order to make use of "Bring it down!"

I think it is an artifact of having an old codex that didn't account for mixed MC units and should be FAQed.

There's no reason for that assumption.

I'm going to need a citation that shows a unit type changes when upgrades are bought.

The problem with defining drones as an upgrade during game turns, if that they count as models in the unit for all accounts. They also have their own unit profile (jet pack infanty), so they don't gain the Riptide's MC rules.

The real question is when a unit type is determined. A problem I am finding is the Shielded Missile Drones are listed in the codex and purchased the same way I add crisis suits. Normaly you would look at a unit's composition to determine it's type. When you buy drones for the Riptide, dose it start the game as a MC unit, or a Mixed unit?

Find rules support for a "mixed" unit.

So, a unit of 3 Carnifexes that have been joined by a Tyranid Prime can't be targeted by "Bring it Down" because the Prime is not an MC? Interesting.. IG is being released soonish anyway so we'll probably have the issue fixed then.

On what page can I find the rules which tell us how to determine the 'unit type' of the whole squad and not the individual models?

rigeld2 wrote:
Find rules support for a "mixed" unit.

Reading on unit types, it leads to far more questions then answers.

Unit types seems to be a misnomer they is says they are rules for the model.

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model fall into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profle...

Unit types should be renamed to "Model Types" as they don't work on a unit basis.

Rigeld, I will ask you honestly, in 5th edition, was "unit type" defining a model, or a unit?
I don't want you to try and catch my words, I would like your help trying to solve this rule conundrum.
-Edit- Did Unit Types ever count for the unit or just for a single model? -/Edit-


I also think I have lost the original point of the question. The question is, dose the act of having non-MC models in a unit with a MC, prevent an IG player from using "Bring it Down!" since they do not have permission to use it on a unit containing other unit types.

Bring it Down!: ...If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

Technically, reading Bring it Down! again, you could be picking the Monstrous Creature within the unit. Nowhere does it state that the Monstrous Creature has to be in isolation. Neither does the "(or unit of monstrous creatures)" limit this, since it's providing an alternative.

The closest thing I have found for defining the Squad type, using the term squad type just to ensure it isn't mistaken for a unit type, is the force organization charts. There is nothing within that tells you the squad is a "monstrous creature Unit." They are either elite units, heavy units, troop units or the likes. Clearly not useful for trying to determine how you decide what squad type you are dealing with, at least not within terms related to the models individual unit type.

Hence why I would like someone to help me find a page or rule that I have overlooked which allows us to determine the squad type based on it's members unit type.

PS:
Oh it can get worse too as there are ways to have vehicles mixed in with non-vehicle unit types. RavenWing Attack Squads come to mind, where you can purchase a land speeder as an upgrade for a bike squadron. If you thought the whole mixed unit breaking the rules debate was bad, imagine how much worse they are when you try to add vehicle rules to the mix.

The land speeder as an upgrade for a bike squadron in the RavenWing Attack Squad is a unit unto itself and is not attached to the unit.

I see that now, as I had overlooked page 47. The Combat squad rules for raven-wings are different then the normal combat squad rules, in that you must automatically separate the Land Speeder as well as the Attack Bikes. At least that fixes the possible issues arising from non-vehicles and vehicles mixing in this case.

Thanks.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Technically, reading Bring it Down! again, you could be picking the Monstrous Creature within the unit. Nowhere does it state that the Monstrous Creature has to be in isolation. Neither does the "(or unit of monstrous creatures)" limit this, since it's providing an alternative.

I don't think so. If the rule said "a unit containing a Monstrous Creature" instead of "a unit of Monstrous Creatures" I would agree. However, the way I read it, you don't have permission to use it against units containing non MC or vehicle models.

mortetvie wrote:So, a unit of 3 Carnifexes that have been joined by a Tyranid Prime can't be targeted by "Bring it Down" because the Prime is not an MC? Interesting.. IG is being released soonish anyway so we'll probably have the issue fixed then.

It's still a Carnifex unit, the Prime's just attached as an IC, I don't think it would prevent Bring it Down.

Yeah unit type is solely a property of individual model profiles. Squad type does not exist in 6th edition.
supporting rules can be found in brb page 3, other important information. BRB page 44, first paragraph of the second column under unit types. This is also obliquely referenced in numerous other rules through out the BRB. It has also had threads discussing it, and it was pretty decicively proven that there is no such thing as a squad level unit type in 6th edition.

If there was an over all squad level unit type hole miles wide could be poked in the rules and you could drive whole imperial guard armored columns through it.

The rule gives permission to target 3 things
-a vehicle
-a single monstrous creature
-a unit of monstrous creatures

a unit of jetpack infanttry and a monstrous creature is not one of those allowed targets.

What I would do in this situation is have the power go off, but the hits can only be allocated to creature. This makes sense because they are not trying to shoot the smaller creatures or drones. It is similar to the rule where you can choose to shoot people who are not in cover.

adkin1pw wrote:
What I would do in this situation is have the power go off, but the hits can only be allocated to creature. This makes sense because they are not trying to shoot the smaller creatures or drones. It is similar to the rule where you can choose to shoot people who are not in cover.

That's ridiculous, using a single order to not only get twin-linked but then also treat the shots as pseudo-precision shots.

 Nilok wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Technically, reading Bring it Down! again, you could be picking the Monstrous Creature within the unit. Nowhere does it state that the Monstrous Creature has to be in isolation. Neither does the "(or unit of monstrous creatures)" limit this, since it's providing an alternative.

I don't think so. If the rule said "a unit containing a Monstrous Creature" instead of "a unit of Monstrous Creatures" I would agree. However, the way I read it, you don't have permission to use it against units containing non MC or vehicle models.

It said to choose "one monstrous creature". It never stated choose "a unit containing only a monstrous creature". Therefore, you have permission to choose it, regardless of its memberships in other units.

"now targeted"

Target is unit based, not model based

And it's a Riptide unit.
Is the Riptide an MC or not? The rest of his unit are normal members of his unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"now targeted"

Target is unit based, not model based

Not in every instance, I would argue. That Ork psyker can snipe ICs.