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Ok, this is how the whole thing has played out in my head.

We have no idea whether the unit counts as fully MC, or part-MC part Infantry, since we are given no rules for how to handle mixed units. I would argue that that means the existing unit type of each model is individually kept, I can see the argument for drones over-riding this, but that's moot here anyway because...

Bring it down! tells us we can "choose" the Monstrous Creature. That's the first part of the rule. Only once you have chosen does targetting come into play, but we're specifically targetting the MC here (the specific rule has already allowed us to bypass the standard rules for targetting a unit because it's specified what we can choose). So the drone unit type doesn't come into play any way.

 Enigwolf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"now targeted"

Target is unit based, not model based

Not in every instance, I would argue. That Ork psyker can snipe ICs.

WIth a specific allowance to do so. Find the specific allowance to target an MC.

 Super Ready wrote:
Ok, this is how the whole thing has played out in my head.

We have no idea whether the unit counts as fully MC, or part-MC part Infantry, since we are given no rules for how to handle mixed units. I would argue that that means the existing unit type of each model is individually kept, I can see the argument for drones over-riding this, but that's moot here anyway because...

Bring it down! tells us we can "choose" the Monstrous Creature. That's the first part of the rule. Only once you have chosen does targetting come into play, but we're specifically targetting the MC here (the specific rule has already allowed us to bypass the standard rules for targetting a unit because it's specified what we can choose). So the drone unit type doesn't come into play any way.

This. This is what I'm referring to.

rigeld2 wrote:
Drones also have a rule saying they act as additional squad members in all regards.

Additional to what squad? The MC squad.
So changing the unit type of the unit would be breaking that rule.

Squads don't have unit types models do.

rigeld2 wrote:
And it's a Riptide unit.
Is the Riptide an MC or not? The rest of his unit are normal members of his unit.

Unit type is a property of models, not squads. Being normal members of his unit does not change them from being infantry. There is no such thing as squad based unit types in 6th edition. I'm not arguing for or against how the bring it down rule is used, but your argument has nothing to stand on.

The ability to turn an entire squad's shots into precision+ shots is very powerful. While it says to target and shoot at the MC, how would wound allocation work in such an instance?

Would it work like in a challenge where you can't assaign wounds to any other model, even for Lookout Sir?
Would it still allocate wounds to the closest model even if that isn't the MC?
How would the unit's cover be determined if the other units are behind cover and focus fire isn't declared?

 Nilok wrote:
While it says to target and shoot at the MC, how would wound allocation work in such an instance?

Would it work like in a challenge where you can't assaign wounds to any other model, even for Lookout Sir?
Would it still allocate wounds to the closest model even if that isn't the MC?
How would the unit's cover be determined if the other units are behind cover and focus fire isn't declared?

Now, this is the part that would be unclear. If it does work as I outlined above, that makes the MC the "nominated target" and not the entire unit. Meaning that that shooting attack would be ignoring the other members of the unit - so no Look Out Sir, no Focus Fire possible if it's a single model, and there would be no other members in the "unit" that would be closer.

Obviously, this would be horrifically broken. This is how I see it in strict RAW but there's no way it can be what was intended. Mind you, the other problem with it is that figuring out allocating which wounds where calls aspects of the targetting rules that "choosing" the MC has already bypassed.

"Unit type" is a part of the Statline; it is on a model by model basis(an Eldar Autarch on a jetbike attached to a unit of guardians does not cease being unit type jetbike and moves as a jetbike with all of the Jetbike rules).

So a unit of MCs would be a unit that consists of only MCs, as a Unit with 3 MCs and an Infantry model is not a unit of MCs(It is a unit with MCs and infantry).

the most damning bit is the wording.

It is not a MC unit, it is a unit of MCs(IG codex and FAQ/Erratta agree on this terminology). so a unit of 2 MCs joined buy an infantry might be able to be argued as an X unit(where X is the name of the MCs), and therefore possibly an "MC Unit", it is still not a unit of MCs(it contains an infantry model)

And this is coming from an ardent IG player.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Unit type" is a part of the Statline; it is on a model by model basis(an Eldar Autarch on a jetbike attached to a unit of guardians does not cease being unit type jetbike and moves as a jetbike with all of the Jetbike rules).

So a unit of MCs would be a unit that consists of only MCs, as a Unit with 3 MCs and an Infantry model is not a unit of MCs(It is a unit with MCs and infantry).

the most damning bit is the wording.

It is not a MC unit, it is a unit of MCs(IG codex and FAQ/Erratta agree on this terminology). so a unit of 2 MCs joined buy an infantry might be able to be argued as an X unit(where X is the name of the MCs), and therefore possibly an "MC Unit", it is still not a unit of MCs(it contains an infantry model)

And this is coming from an ardent IG player.

Whether or not you're an IG player is irrelevant. We're discussing the semantics of the rules wording here. Technically, it tells you to pick an MC in the first part of the second section of the order - it never said to pick a unit of one MC or all MCs. Therefore, you can solo out the one MC in a mixed unit just as there are other psychic powers that can target specific individuals without the squad.

if the drones are war gear for the riptide then yh the rule should work if they are a seperately paid for unit then no they dsont im off to consult my copy of the codex on this matter

Drones are normal members of the unit. They are purchased similar to wargear, but are still unit members.

the way i have just read the two codex's, the order will work against the riptide as i am directly nominating it to be the intended unit thus allowing my heavy or special weapons team to hurt it

 Happyjew wrote:
Drones are normal members of the unit. They are purchased similar to wargear, but are still unit members.

They are not purchased similar to wargear in that case they are bought the same way one would buy additional members for a firewarrior or crisis suit unit.
Drones taken from the "drones list", which is what other units do, are very obviously purchased like wargear since they're on page 95 with all the other gear.

Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

i would simply play it the easy way, if you claim i cant targert it using bring it down then as my crappy conscripts charge u, you canot make me take a fear test

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it has drones that it bought and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it was joined by another squad and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

Codex says I can choose the target, brb says who in the squad/group is effected first.

Makes sense to me without all of the syntax,rules lawyering schenannigans.

scitech wrote:
I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it has drones that it bought and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it was joined by another squad and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

Codex says I can choose the target, brb says who in the squad/group is effected first.

Makes sense to me without all of the syntax,rules lawyering schenannigans.

The codex dose not give you permission to use your twinlinked against infantry. This is the same problem as the Tau Forge World commander who has preferred enemy IC.

The FAQ says he can only use his PE if he uses precision shots on a IC. Which have to hit on 6 to work. Having to make a hit to activate your re-roll to hit on the already hit rolls seems silly, but that's what they said.

It does help him RR to wound tough.

OT: A unit of monstrous creatures is just that, a unit composed of models with the MC unit type.

Chris Lysander wrote:
i would simply play it the easy way, if you claim i cant targert it using bring it down then as my crappy conscripts charge u, you canot make me take a fear test

Oh? Fear has nothing to do with a unit that has the special rule, only a model. if you charge and none of your models make it into base contact with the Riptide, then there will be no Fear test that turn. The following turns however...

 Super Ready wrote:
Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

I would argue that it DOES potentially matter how they are purchased. When you look at the "Unit Composition" it says "1 Riptide". It doesn't say "1 Riptide and 0-3 Drones". The "unit" that you've purchased is a Riptide. The Eldar Support Battery specifically calls out "2 Guardians, 1 Support Weapon".

Personally I agree and don't think "Bring it Down" will work on a Riptide until you've killed its drones. I'm just being Devil's Advocate here.

Murrdox wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

I would argue that it DOES potentially matter how they are purchased. When you look at the "Unit Composition" it says "1 Riptide". It doesn't say "1 Riptide and 0-3 Drones". The "unit" that you've purchased is a Riptide. The Eldar Support Battery specifically calls out "2 Guardians, 1 Support Weapon".

Because the Support Battery comes with the purchase of the unit. Just like how a unit of Marines would have a Sergeant and 4 Space Marines, but a squad of Broadsides are all Broadside Shas'vres, but one can be upgraded to a Broadside Shas'ui.

Murrdox wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

I would argue that it DOES potentially matter how they are purchased. When you look at the "Unit Composition" it says "1 Riptide". It doesn't say "1 Riptide and 0-3 Drones". The "unit" that you've purchased is a Riptide. The Eldar Support Battery specifically calls out "2 Guardians, 1 Support Weapon".

Personally I agree and don't think "Bring it Down" will work on a Riptide until you've killed its drones. I'm just being Devil's Advocate here.

They have changed how unit composition is shown in the new 6e books.

By that logic, my Crisis Suits can't have any IC attached because it lists their Unit Composition as "1 Crisis Shas'ui", if I go on a little tangent. That also is the same for my Broadside team "1 Broadside Shas'ui".

Unit Composition now only shows what the minimum squad size is.

 Nilok wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

I would argue that it DOES potentially matter how they are purchased. When you look at the "Unit Composition" it says "1 Riptide". It doesn't say "1 Riptide and 0-3 Drones". The "unit" that you've purchased is a Riptide. The Eldar Support Battery specifically calls out "2 Guardians, 1 Support Weapon".

Personally I agree and don't think "Bring it Down" will work on a Riptide until you've killed its drones. I'm just being Devil's Advocate here.

They have changed how unit composition is shown in the new 6e books.

By that logic, my Crisis Suits can't have any IC attached because it lists their Unit Composition as "1 Crisis Shas'ui", if I go on a little tangent. That also is the same for my Broadside team "1 Broadside Shas'ui".

Unit Composition now only shows what the minimum squad size is.

Yeah, you're right. I didn't think what I was saying would hold water for long.

 Nilok wrote:

scitech wrote:
I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it has drones that it bought and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it was joined by another squad and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

Codex says I can choose the target, brb says who in the squad/group is effected first.

Makes sense to me without all of the syntax,rules lawyering schenannigans.

The codex dose not give you permission to use your twinlinked against infantry. This is the same problem as the Tau Forge World commander who has preferred enemy IC.

The FAQ says he can only use his PE if he uses precision shots on a IC. Which have to hit on 6 to work. Having to make a hit to activate your re-roll to hit on the already hit rolls seems silly, but that's what they said.

I stick by what I say. I chose the monstrous creature, I shot at it, you stuck your infantry in the way as ablative wounds. Give me a break. Codex says choose a mc, not choose a mc if it's by itself. I chose the mc, if you don't want your infantry dying keep them away from the mc.

Well we shall see how it plays out with a new IG codex. However, HIWPI, the Riptide is a JMC unit. The drones act as additional units in all regards, which would count as MC's for the purpose of targetings.

Fragile wrote:
Well we shall see how it plays out with a new IG codex. However, HIWPI, the Riptide is a JMC unit. The drones act as additional units in all regards, which would count as MC's for the purpose of targetings.

There is no such thing as JPMC or MC unit (squad) in 6e. Unit Types are extensions to a model's profile and have no bearing directly on the squad. Being in the squad dose not convey the MC unit type or rules to the drones.

As such, it would be a unit of composed of a (Jet Pack) MC and (Jet Pack) Infantry. Can you target such a unit with "Bring it Down!"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scitech wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

scitech wrote:
I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it has drones that it bought and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it was joined by another squad and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

Codex says I can choose the target, brb says who in the squad/group is effected first.

Makes sense to me without all of the syntax,rules lawyering schenannigans.

The codex dose not give you permission to use your twinlinked against infantry. This is the same problem as the Tau Forge World commander who has preferred enemy IC.

The FAQ says he can only use his PE if he uses precision shots on a IC. Which have to hit on 6 to work. Having to make a hit to activate your re-roll to hit on the already hit rolls seems silly, but that's what they said.

I stick by what I say. I chose the monstrous creature, I shot at it, you stuck your infantry in the way as ablative wounds. Give me a break. Codex says choose a mc, not choose a mc if it's by itself. I chose the mc, if you don't want your infantry dying keep them away from the mc.

Are you shooting so you will wound infantry? Can you gain twin-linked against infantry with "Bring it Down!"?
Unless you have a special rule that lets you isolate the target from the squad like precision shots, you are still targeting the infantry you can't make use of "Bring it Down!"

You should reread what I posted.

Fragile wrote:
You should reread what I posted.

Counting as part of the unit dose change their unit type. Nothing in the rules permits a model to change its unit type. Nor dose counting as part of a unit change how the composition of the unit is viewed.

At best, it is a Riptide Unit that can be composed of either a Jet Pack Monstrous Creature, or a Jet Pack Monstrous Creature and Jet Pack Infantry.

Fragile wrote:
Well we shall see how it plays out with a new IG codex. However, HIWPI, the Riptide is a JMC unit. The drones act as additional units in all regards, which would count as MC's for the purpose of targetings.

Units oddly enough don't have a unit type, models do.
For a unit to be a unit of MCs all the models in it must have the appropriate unit type.

Wouldn't the drones be considered upgrades to the unit.