Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 trizzeau wrote:
Wouldn't the drones be considered upgrades to the unit.

Read the codex and read the rest of the thread first, please.

It is a unit of a MC and Inf. ---- Not a unit of a MC or Inf. It should count as both as it has both tags.

You should be able to fire at it w/ bring it down as it is now both.

Where is the permission to remove a tag from the unit?

If you add a IC to that Riptide it will be a unit w/ an Inf., an IC and a MC tag. Shouldn't the unit have all those tags? So if anything affects those tags it could affect the unit? Where is the or you all keeping talking about?

 Mythra wrote:
It is a unit of a MC and Inf. ---- Not a unit of a MC or Inf. It should count as both as it has both tags.

You should be able to fire at it w/ bring it down as it is now both.

Where is the permission to remove a tag from the unit?

If you add a IC to that Riptide it will be a unit w/ an Inf., an IC and a MC tag. Shouldn't the unit have all those tags? So if anything affects those tags it could affect the unit? Where is the or you all keeping talking about?

The problem lies in that fact the unit contains all of those tags and the order "Bring it Down!" only allows you to specify Vehicles (Vehicle Squadrons) or MC (Unit of MCs). "Bring it Down!" dose not give you permission to use "Bring it Down!" against other Unit Types like Infantry or Artillery.

This is much like the Forge World Tau special character Shas'O R'alai. His Warlord Trait is Preferred Enemy: Independent Character. However, even if there is an IC in a unit you are shooting at, you can't make use of re-rolling 1s to hit against the squad and can only re-roll to wound if you Precision Fire the IC.

You can use this ability against an independent character if they are alone or in conjunction with precision fire if the independent character is in a unit.

Yes but it does give you permission to use it vs monstrous creatures.

Tags are inclusive. If your unit has everything in it it counts as everything. Where does it say one tag swallows another?

If we have a Flying MC Inif unit it counts as all those even if 1 model is flying, one is a MC, and one is Inf. You can add tags to unit but never take away.

Where in the rules have you ever seen a tag being deleted from a unit? The more diff. things you add to a unit the more tags it has.

One tag cannot shield a unit for an attack that affects it. Your saying b/c I added inf. to the MC it is now shielded vs any attack that affects MCs? I am say tags stack in a unit.


Edit add: So in army builder what is that unit tagged as only a MC unit or only an inf. unit? It should count as both. I am asking how can you ignore a tag in unit? There is no rule to ignore tags but we see instances of adding tags all the time.

My example would be a Psyocculum. I f a unit has a Psyker in it the unit is tagged as psychic. Now you have a BS 10 to shoot at them. The unit gained the tag. It didn't lose the tag b/c there is only 1 psyker in the unit.

 Mythra wrote:
Yes but it does give you permission to use it vs monstrous creatures.

Tags are inclusive. If your unit has everything in it it counts as everything. Where does it say one tag swallows another?

If we have a Flying MC Inif unit it counts as all those even if 1 model is flying, one is a MC, and one is Inf. You can add tags to unit but never take away.

Where in the rules have you ever seen a tag being deleted from a unit? The more diff. things you add to a unit the more tags it has.

One tag cannot shield a unit for an attack that affects it. Your saying b/c I added inf. to the MC it is now shielded vs any attack that affects MCs? I am say tags stack in a unit.


Edit add: So in army builder what is that unit tagged as only a MC unit or only an inf. unit? It should count as both. I am asking how can you ignore a tag in unit? There is no rule to ignore tags but we see instances of adding tags all the time.

Warhammer 40K has a permissive rule set, meaning, you require expressed permission in order for you to do an action. Contrasted with a restrictive rule set like modern law which could say for instance, "don't break dance on wood," you could still break dance anywhere else.
If you say something along the lines, but doesn't say I can't, you just can't.

Without the expressed permission to target a Infantry unit, or even a mixed MC + Infantry unit with "Bring it Down!", you can't.

On the note of Army Builder. I don't think they can be used as a rules source since they are not related to Games Workshop and only have a partnership with them. I have known from using Army Builder that is sometimes gives me incorrect load outs. While it is rare, it still is just an assistant and can't be taken as fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mythra wrote:
My example would be a Psyocculum. I f a unit has a Psyker in it the unit is tagged as psychic. Now you have a BS 10 to shoot at them. The unit gained the tag. It didn't lose the tag b/c there is only 1 psyker in the unit.

I would have to ask dose the rule say for instance, "A unit containing a Psyker"? Or dose it say, "A unit of Psykers"?

If it was the former, the shooting squad can fire at BS10 to their hearts content. If it was the latter, the unit could not fire at BS10 unless the Psyker was alone, or the whole unit was made of Psyker models.

Here's the thing, the rule says to pick an "MC OR a unit of MCs". It does not say to pick a unit consisting only of MCs, ergo, by permissive ruleset you can still pick the one MC in a mixed unit since it says to pick AN MC.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Here's the thing, the rule says to pick an "MC OR a unit of MCs". It does not say to pick a unit consisting only of MCs, ergo, by permissive ruleset you can still pick the one MC in a mixed unit since it says to pick AN MC.

I believe you are miss interpreting the permissive rule set.
The problem is while you can use it against one MC, it doesn't permit you to target anything else with the shooting attack. A unit consisting only of MCs is the same as a unit of MCs since units (squads) do not have Unit Types, only models have a Unit Type. So in order for there to be "a unit of MCs," it must be "a unit consisting only MCs," otherwise it wouldn't be a unit of MCs anymore.

You are not targeting anything. The rule states to "choose one enemy...monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures)...". It does not state to choose one unit of MC(s). The key is in the first part which tells you to choose an enemy MC. This allows you to choose an MC, independent of whether it is in a mixed unit or not since you are merely choosing an MC much in the same way you'd choose a model in a unit to move while others remain stationary to continue firing heavy weapons at full BS.

 Enigwolf wrote:
You are not targeting anything. The rule states to "choose one enemy...monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures)...". It does not state to choose one unit of MC(s). The key is in the first part which tells you to choose an enemy MC. This allows you to choose an MC, independent of whether it is in a mixed unit or not since you are merely choosing an MC much in the same way you'd choose a model in a unit to move while others remain stationary to continue firing heavy weapons at full BS.

Sorry to say, but it dose say you are targeting the unit in the order. Unless you are saying that this order gains some sort of advanced precision shot rule so it only hits the MC, I don't believe it works in a mixed Unit Types squad.
Underlined for clarity.

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

I guess this new edition has given an un intended bump to the IG then. You choose the MC, you shoot at it. Sounds like BID just gave the squad precision shot.

I'm following this line of thought mostly because its a jerk move to hide a MC in a unit of infantry. It flies in the face of RAI not to be able to shoot at the MC because he's belly crawling behind infantry. Trying to do so is low...no pun intended.

If it's against RAI why did GW do it a second time.