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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

O.o

Let's pass it w/o reading it, eh? It went so well the last time...

http://news.investors.com/blogs-capital-hill/062113-660984-glenn-kessler-fact-check-flop-on-ted-cruz-immigration-obamacare.htm
In a post awarding Sen. Ted Cruz three Pinocchios, Washington Post fact checker Glenn Kessler broke the first two rules of fact checking:

1. Think before you call someone a liar.

2. Don't level an attack on someone's veracity because you doubt his sincerity or question his motives.

Here is the tweet from Cruz that led Kessler to go on the attack:

"If Gang of 8 bill passes, those newly legalized are exempted from ObamaCare. HUGE incentive for employers to hire them instead of Americans."

Kessler, in his first published draft, said no such incentive exists in the Senate bill to hire provisional immigrants over U.S. citizens. Then, informed of his error by commenters , he acknowledged that this incentive does exist. But Kessler argues it is of little importance and — by failing to retract his Pinocchios — implies that raising concern about it equals a lie.

Before detailing many of Kessler's mistakes — factual and analytical — here is a disclaimer and a bit of perspective so that readers bring an open mind to the facts.

In truth, my work is under attack as much as Cruz's comment. Kessler links to three of my articles and blog posts and writes that I have "aggressively pushed" the same line of reasoning articulated here by Catherine Frazier, Cruz's press secretary:

"The Gang of 8 bill in conjunction with ObamaCare creates de facto affirmative action for illegal immigrants. It's reflective of how out of touch and broken Washington is, and how important it is that we defund and repeal ObamaCare."

First of all, I am with Sen. Rand Paul (and pretty much everyone else): Let's say "undocumented," not illegal.

Second, I have never called for repeal of ObamaCare. In fact, just a few months ago, I was first to debunk a new anti-ObamaCare conservative talking point that had gone viral.

Third, and most important, one of the principal reasons I keep writing about this issue is because I have come up with a proposal that would allow immigration legislation and ObamaCare to work together in an acceptable way. I won't go into details here, but please read it: It's important to get this right.

It's also worth noting that Roll Call's Taegan Goddard has noted the "perverse incentives" created by the interaction of immigration legislation and ObamaCare.

And here's a snippet from the New Republic's John Judis, who covered this ground in a powerful and principled piece with the subtitle "The immigration bill's disturbing fine print":

"Even an advocate for low-income immigrants sees the language as a potential problem: 'We don't want them to hire immigrants over citizens because of that loophole,' says Sonal Ambegaokar, who analyzes health policy for the National Immigration Law Center. 'We want a level playing field.'"

Now to Kessler's errors, which might have been avoided if he had carefully read those articles of mine he linked to:

First, he is shaky on the details of ObamaCare's employer mandate. He writes: "Some employers with too skimpy or unaffordable insurance coverage will likely have to pay a penalty of about $2,000 for each employee eligible for health care exchange subsidies, excluding the first 30 employees."

This accurately describes the penalty that would be paid by employers who don't offer any coverage to workers. But companies that provide "skimpy or unaffordable insurance" are virtually certain to pay a penalty of $3,000 per worker who gets ObamaCare subsidies. That's because employers will pay the lesser of the two ways of calculating the fine, and the $3,000-per-subsidized-worker penalty will add up to a lot less for firms with a typical level of covered workers and exempt part timers.

It's worth noting that this $3,000 fine will be nondeductible. That means, for a profit-making firm that pays a combined 40% federal and state tax rate, it will be the equivalent of $5,000 in annual wages. When you are talking about a low-skill worker who makes $15,000 or $20,000 a year, that is, to borrow Cruz's word, huge.

Because legalized immigrants (officially, registered provisional immigrants in the Senate bill) won't be eligible for subsidies for a decade or more, employers could be sure of escaping such a fine. While many citizens (and green card holders) will opt to go without coverage and pay an individual tax penalty, it's unlikely that very low-wage workers would make such a decision. That's because the penalty will be far greater than their out-of-pocket payment for a bronze plan, as detailed here.

Next, Kessler bizarrely says that ObamaCare's employer penalties will be "almost too minuscule to be noticed — only 0.2% (about 10,000 businesses out of 6 million) would be affected by the employee shared responsibility provision. That's because it only affects companies that employ more than 50 people — and 96% of companies have less than 50 people."

Here is the reality: CBO projects employers will pay $140 billion in nondeductible fines over nine years. And, according to ADP, 92 million private-sector workers, or two-thirds of the total, work at companies with at least 50 employees.

Kessler says, "Most companies that employ more than 50 people already offer health insurance."

Yes, but that doesn't strengthen his argument, because those that don't offer insurance will pay based on the size of their workforce, without regard to citizenship status. Visa status will matter for only employers who do offer coverage.

Kessler then says CBO estimates show that "about 1 million people, including immigrants, will receive an unaffordable offer from their employer."

Not exactly. CBO says companies will owe fines for 1 million workers who get ObamaCare subsidies because of an unaffordable offer of care. That number excludes people who are offered coverage that is too pricey or skimpy but don't sign up for ObamaCare.

But here is the really important point that Kessler ignores: Companies that offer insurance can dodge ObamaCare fines if they reduce worker hours below 30 per week. A growing number have said they will do just that to minimize the fines they will pay under ObamaCare.

In this context, it seems pretty relevant to point out that employers deciding whether to cut a citizen or immigrant to part time would have a big incentive to tilt against the citizen.

Who knows how many will do so? But whether it is a large number or small, there is nothing wrong with standing up for the principle of a fair playing field when it comes to getting a job — or keeping a full-time job.

Lastly, Kessler runs on and on about employment law and whether employers will know a worker's immigration status before hiring a potential employee.

This, again, misses the point. Most provisional immigrants presumably have jobs already, and Kessler notes that employers are able to check on the immigration status of employees. Further, if provisional immigrants get a new Social Security card, they will surely tell their employers.

While Cruz used the word "hire," it was a tweet, for goodness' sake, and "hire" is just fine as shorthand for "employ full time."

That surely doesn't stand up as an excuse for Kessler to hand out three Pinocchios. The only thing he should hand out is an apology.


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions







I hope the Unions are paying attention to this, because they're making a lot of noise in favour of this bill that may haunt them later.

I have my own views and, while I am not eligible to vote for many years, I am paying attention.

 
   
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USA

Well now we know how the bill made it to the Senata har har wink wink

   
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Fort Campbell

I'm tired of this crap. I saw how "large" this bill was. The stack of papers was as tall as the man standing next to it it seemed like.

The entire frame work of our government was hand written on 12 pages. What the hell do we need bills this large for?

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
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Fort Worth, TX

 djones520 wrote:
The entire frame work of our government was hand written on 12 pages. What the hell do we need bills this large for?


Because everyone in Congress has to have their own personal hand in it to sneak their pet projects and special needs into it. Nobody really cares about doing what's right for America, because pretty much all members of Congress are rich enough to survive any real economic damage they cause. All they care about is continually getting elected so they can keep on going to the bank.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

Maybe if the president had some solid line item veto powers this kind of crap would stop and we would have single subject bills.
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 d-usa wrote:
Maybe if the president had some solid line item veto powers this kind of crap would stop and we would have single subject bills.


The line item veto is unconstitutional, and rightly so. It's an utter abdication of the responsibilities of the legislative to the executive.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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 djones520 wrote:
The entire frame work of our government was hand written on 12 pages. What the hell do we need bills this large for?


Because really short language is extremely subjective, and to properly and fully lay out the intent of a piece of law you need to expand on it by a lot. I mean, sure it sounds great at the time to say 'A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed' but have you how much debate that's caused since then?

In fact, if you consider how much case law is needed to fully understand, say, the right to privacy, it's probably in the tens of thousands of pages of case transcripts and summaries by legal experts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/26 02:19:34


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

I was curious so I checked. The current modern US code is approximately 220,000 pages, and that's not including the approx 80,0000 pages of tax code.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

 Ouze wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Maybe if the president had some solid line item veto powers this kind of crap would stop and we would have single subject bills.


The line item veto is unconstitutional, and rightly so. It's an utter abdication of the responsibilities of the legislative to the executive.


I know, but it would be very nice to have IMO.

The Oklahoma Constitution has a law that states that any bill in the legislature has to deal with a single subject, and we regularly have the court throw out laws that do crap like "we are cutting taxes, and this city gets a park!"
   
Made in us
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McCain life time target. Pork Barrel spending. Crap that gets added to the Bill that's not part of the Bill..

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Ugh...

They voted to end debate on a bill without knowing for sure if it gives employers a huge incentive to hire illegals over Americans? These guys are ridiculous...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/senators-dont-know-if-bill-encourages-hiring-amnestied-immigrants-instead-us-citizens_737897.html?nopager=1
As the Washington Examiner’s Philip Klein recently reported: “Under Obamacare, businesses with over 50 workers that employ American citizens without offering them qualifying health insurance could be subject to fines of up to $3,000 per worker. But because newly legalized immigrants wouldn’t be eligible for subsidies on the Obamacare exchanges until after they become citizens – at least 13 years under the Senate bill – businesses could avoid such fines by hiring the new immigrants instead.”

On Tuesday afternoon, THE WEEKLY STANDARD asked five different U.S. Senators about this problem. These five senators, all Democrats, voted to cut off debate Monday night on the revised immigration bill, but none of them knew if the bill would create a financial incentive for some employers to hire amnestied immigrants instead of American citizens.

“We’re trying to solve that right now. I don’t know if that’s been solved,” Senator Max Baucus of Montana (chief author of Obamacare) told THE WEEKLY STANDARD.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 djones520 wrote:
I'm tired of this crap. I saw how "large" this bill was. The stack of papers was as tall as the man standing next to it it seemed like.


The bill itself is a little less than 2000 pages which is roughly 8 inches, depending on the quality of the paper.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 dogma wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I'm tired of this crap. I saw how "large" this bill was. The stack of papers was as tall as the man standing next to it it seemed like.


The bill itself is a little less than 2000 pages which is roughly 8 inches, depending on the quality of the paper.


T'was a short man...
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 d-usa wrote:
 dogma wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I'm tired of this crap. I saw how "large" this bill was. The stack of papers was as tall as the man standing next to it it seemed like.


The bill itself is a little less than 2000 pages which is roughly 8 inches, depending on the quality of the paper.


T'was a short man...


I'm sure it was real nice paper too.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 djones520 wrote:
I'm tired of this crap. I saw how "large" this bill was. The stack of papers was as tall as the man standing next to it it seemed like.

The entire frame work of our government was hand written on 12 pages. What the hell do we need bills this large for?

Because just like the ACA we need to pass it into law so we can see what it contains

 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 daedalus wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 dogma wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I'm tired of this crap. I saw how "large" this bill was. The stack of papers was as tall as the man standing next to it it seemed like.


The bill itself is a little less than 2000 pages which is roughly 8 inches, depending on the quality of the paper.


T'was a short man...


I'm sure it was real nice paper too.


Real smooth like. Slick and glossy like a frozen pond on a moonlit night.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Probably hand pressed by illegals.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Daedulas....Ouze....I have a new look on my printing paper......can't believe you two made such a soft erotica view of....paer of all things

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

I could use some good paper where I work. In my little corner of the government, we only get the cheapest stuff Office Depot or Staples has.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I could use some good paper where I work. In my little corner of the government, we only get the cheapest stuff Office Depot or Staples has.

I have a suggestion for the paper being used by the Gang of Eight, but I'm afraid maintenance won't like having to keep fishing it out of the U-bend

 
   
 
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