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Looking at using Eldar allies for a mech guard force, using rangers/pathfinders as snipers to hold the back line and take out special weapons and wraithguard to safe guard them from deep striking units. So far my only AA is an Icarus lascanon, so wondering about throwing in a couple of SL/frakk war walkers, expensive glass canons but they seem to be the cheapest way to fill this role and I'm hoping I can keep them out of LOS till and opportunistic target is in range .

Any feed back on war walkers or using rangers/pathfinders in support of mech guard would be great.

It is my honest opinion that you should not use wraithguard to protect backfield rangers. It is a big point sink. I would recommend using harlequins with a Shadowseer & death jester. Also, war walkers with double scatter laser are best for long range firepower from your backfield

I've been considering Scatt/BL Walkers lately. They produce a good number of hits and so they can still do anti-infantry, but they're a cheap source of reliable lances.

I've seen some goo numbers on Scatt/Star too. What I saw seeme to suggest that it kills more guys that double Scatt in a variety of situations. Double Scatts obviously produce more glances vs vehicles though.

At any rate I think for the first time in years, mixing Scatter Lasers with other weapons is worthwhile.

I do not think the starcannons are worth it still. With the new pseudo rending on shuriken weapons, our common weapons can kill of TEQ efficiently enough. I have used the Shuriken cannon, Scatter laser combo with success. However, I am looking at trying out the mixed squad of scatter laser and Bright lance. Seems to be able to handle whatever is needed at the time. Might also just take a 2 man squad of walkers with double lances just for Anti-tank. I think a full squad walkers with bright lances might be over kill but I would know.

Honestly i dont think war walkers are worth it at all. They dont perform a role we need in the army any more and are no longer the cost effective damage machines they were. AV10 open topped is too easy to deal with this edition. I dropped all my walkers to cannons for cost effectiveness once 6th hit, and now i cant even bring myself to run them with that. 5+ inv and bs4 doesnt make up 20 points+ open topped. you had a 5+ cover save from just about everything last edition, so the inv is near useless.

VS inf use shadow weavers, reapers, or fire prisms
VS tanks use wraithknights, falcons, or prisms.

I run 3 war walkers with 6 bright lances, and holofeilds. Yes, it is a bit pricey, but I always have a farseer nearby to guide them, so technically I will score 2 hits snapshot ting against fliers. 2 hits with s8 ap2. It works really well for me. Stick them in a ruin, they have three or up cover.

ninjafiredragon wrote:
I run 3 war walkers with 6 bright lances, and holofeilds. Yes, it is a bit pricey, but I always have a farseer nearby to guide them, so technically I will score 2 hits snapshot ting against fliers. 2 hits with s8 ap2. It works really well for me. Stick them in a ruin, they have three or up cover.

Holofields don't work like that. I believe they provide a +1 to any jink saves, as a WW does not get jink (on account of not being a skimmer). Ontop of that, you're paying 85 points for a Av10 open-topped model with 2hp.

no holo-fields do work on cover saves, but due to the wording, the walker has to move in the movement phase to get the +1 to its cover save. Also, has anyone used their walkers with the star engines upgrade? I am debating it, because that extra 3" to the run could be amazingly good.

 zephoid wrote:
Honestly i dont think war walkers are worth it at all. They dont perform a role we need in the army any more and are no longer the cost effective damage machines they were. AV10 open topped is too easy to deal with this edition. I dropped all my walkers to cannons for cost effectiveness once 6th hit, and now i cant even bring myself to run them with that. 5+ inv and bs4 doesnt make up 20 points+ open topped. you had a 5+ cover save from just about everything last edition, so the inv is near useless.

VS inf use shadow weavers, reapers, or fire prisms
VS tanks use wraithknights, falcons, or prisms.

I strongly disagree. Flanking, shooting and hiding with run is the way to make your oponent struggle to deal with them, as War Walkers can operate a bit more isolated than the rest of our army. If your oponent drops a pod with meltas, send bikes, etc. You're still winning, because of the Eldar superior mobility, you'll be able to deal better with the rest of the army. Also, if you want to use Shuri Cannons, i think it's better to take Vypers instead, mostly because of the range at which it operates. I believe that SL and Star Cannon is the best loadout against MEQ, exchanging the Star Cannon for a Bright Lance if you've more than 1 squad of WW and you want to deal with vehicles (but then I prefer Prisms for that).

Main problem with the other options you suggested is that your opponent can negate it's full efect with another kind of save. You shoot a Shadow Weaver against a 5 MEQ Squad and if it doesn't scatter, you'll be doing about 5 wounds with a 3+ save. With a prism it's similar but with a +4 or +5 cover save. With flanking WW you'll deal a lot more wounds, independently of the armor/cover save.

Well, if you want back field control, then take a Wraithlord with 2 flamers. This guy can stall outflankers pretty well.
In the 5th ed, I were always running one or two full WW squadrons with scatterlasers or shuricannons. Often they were outflanking and in this edition, I'll do the same.

toocool61 wrote:
no holo-fields do work on cover saves, but due to the wording, the walker has to move in the movement phase to get the +1 to its cover save. Also, has anyone used their walkers with the star engines upgrade? I am debating it, because that extra 3" to the run could be amazingly good.

Star engines are a must have, but only if you play with reasonable LOS blocking terrain. If you don't, I wouldn't even run Warwalkers.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

toocool61 wrote:
no holo-fields do work on cover saves, but due to the wording, the walker has to move in the movement phase to get the +1 to its cover save. Also, has anyone used their walkers with the star engines upgrade? I am debating it, because that extra 3" to the run could be amazingly good.

Star engines are a must have, but only if you play with reasonable LOS blocking terrain. If you don't, I wouldn't even run Warwalkers.

Don't go overboard with upgrades. Anyway, don't be shy to expose them to the enemy. Target saturation is key in an Eldar army.

Yeah I agree with wuestenfux. Star Engines sound nice, but they cost enough I'd rather be spending the points on more guns.

The main reason I'm willing to entertain load outs aside from double Scatter Lasers isn't the laser targeting rule. Or even the BS boost. Those are part of it too, but the main thing is that the other guns got cheaper. War Walkers are fragile whether they run 1" or 9" with Battle Focus. I think it's better to focus on efficient point expenditure than on tricks that might preserve them a turn or two if you have the right terrain against the right opponent.

My experience from previous editions is that the shuricannon is generally too short ranged. The only exception is when the WW's are outflanking and arrive from the right board edge.

dnanoodle wrote:I've seen some goo numbers on Scatt/Star too. What I saw seeme to suggest that it kills more guys that double Scatt in a variety of situations. Double Scatts obviously produce more glances vs vehicles though.

toocool61 wrote:I do not think the starcannons are worth it still. With the new pseudo rending on shuriken weapons, our common weapons can kill of TEQ efficiently enough. I have used the Shuriken cannon, Scatter laser combo with success.

We were talking about it in the general Tactics thread. Basically, Scatter Laser + Starcannon is pretty much strictly superior to 2xStarcannon. You lose .08 wounds per turn against TEQ, and gain or are equal everywhere else. Scatter Laser + Starcannon is fairly significantly weaker than 2xScatter Laser with weak troops in cover (lose .50 wounds per turn versus GEQ), but equal or better for anything with a 5+ or better armor save as its best save. I'm hestitant about Shuriken Cannon in general because extra range makes JSJ more viable with Battle Focus.

Against vehicles Scatter Laser + Starcannon loses about 17% effectiveness in HP removed (that's how many hits you lose). I don't have an image for vehicles right now, but maybe I'll get a chance for that later, need to work on explode % logic.

So I think SL+SC is still the way to go as the generalist's option. All the other options have harsher weaknesses, while SL+SC only ever really suffers versus blobs in cover. If you're using War Walkers to cover up an army wide deficiency, then that is appropriately coloring your options anyway.

 noghri wrote:

I strongly disagree. Flanking, shooting and hiding with run is the way to make your oponent struggle to deal with them, as War Walkers can operate a bit more isolated than the rest of our army. If your oponent drops a pod with meltas, send bikes, etc. You're still winning, because of the Eldar superior mobility, you'll be able to deal better with the rest of the army. Also, if you want to use Shuri Cannons, i think it's better to take Vypers instead, mostly because of the range at which it operates. I believe that SL and Star Cannon is the best loadout against MEQ, exchanging the Star Cannon for a Bright Lance if you've more than 1 squad of WW and you want to deal with vehicles (but then I prefer Prisms for that).

Main problem with the other options you suggested is that your opponent can negate it's full efect with another kind of save. You shoot a Shadow Weaver against a 5 MEQ Squad and if it doesn't scatter, you'll be doing about 5 wounds with a 3+ save. With a prism it's similar but with a +4 or +5 cover save. With flanking WW you'll deal a lot more wounds, independently of the armor/cover save.

The main purpose last edition was having war walkers put large number of wounds on things we really couldnt deal with. Now the eldar codex has enough firepower to deal with almost anything. For instance 2 5 man units of warp spiders cost less than 3 war walkers, put out only 20 shots, but with rending and S7 vs vehicles and some MCs they are putting out more firepower. At 10W 3+ they are also more durable than 3 AV10 2HP open topped 5++ walkers. Hiding war walkers is very hard due to their size and squadroned, especially vs a moving opponent. Hiding warp spiders is easy. Warp spiders are 12" range, but 2d6+6+1d6 reroll move up and 2d6 move back makes these guys cover the map. They have an effective 31.5" range between move, run, and shoot. Then they can jump back.

2 Wave serpents is 230. 3 War walkers are 210. 8 S6 TL+2d6+2 TL S7 pinning vs 24 S6. I call that about equal. AV12 vs AV10, both have 5+ saves. Serpent is a transport. Serpent survives first turn easily due to shield. Serpent can turbo if shaken for a better save. Everything here says serpents are better value than war walkers.

Sure, war walkers may do more in a turn than any other option, but the point is that they dont see more than 2 turns on the field. Shadow weavers will be there all game. I can get 7 Shadow weavers for the cost of 3 war walkers. Assuming 1/2 hit for 4 each, thats 14 hits a round vs 18 for the war walkers. Shadow weavers are pinning barrage and are S7 vs vehicles. AV10 vs 2W T7 3+ and 2 crew at T7. Again this all seems better to the shadow weavers.

No one deepstrikes to kill war walkers. They simply shoot S6-8 at them like they would any AV10 vehicle. Lack of any reasonably priced save improvement makes these guys fall apart at a glance (well actually 2 glances, har har).

Yeah I agree with wuestenfux. Star Engines sound nice, but they cost enough I'd rather be spending the points on more guns.

The main reason I'm willing to entertain load outs aside from double Scatter Lasers isn't the laser targeting rule. Or even the BS boost. Those are part of it too, but the main thing is that the other guns got cheaper. War Walkers are fragile whether they run 1" or 9" with Battle Focus. I think it's better to focus on efficient point expenditure than on tricks that might preserve them a turn or two if you have the right terrain against the right opponent.

So no one finds the star engines worth it? I guess I can see why at 45 pts. a squad, t I thought I found a hidden gem there now I know this is again another upgrade, but what about holo fields? if you stick walkers in cover and move an inch a turn, you get +1 to your cover save! that seems pretty reasonable. Thoughts on this? Again I know its another upgrade, but I would like to try to keep these walkers alive all game if I am going to spend 200+ points on them.