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I was wondering about something recently. I know that Tzeentch daemons get to reroll 1s. However, the rulebook says you cannot reroll a reroll.

So if I were to use Divination on a Tzeentch daemon to force it to reroll successful saves, and its reroll of a successful save is a 1. It cannot then use the Tzeentch power, to reroll that 1?

That's right. You only re-roll once regardless of how many rules you have telling you to re-roll. To date that is, it's possible that in the future there may be rules that allow you to re-roll re-rolls, although they'll be rare.

 Iron Dragon wrote:
I was wondering about something recently. I know that Tzeentch daemons get to reroll 1s. However, the rulebook says you cannot reroll a reroll.

So if I were to use Divination on a Tzeentch daemon to force it to reroll successful saves, and its reroll of a successful save is a 1. It cannot then use the Tzeentch power, to reroll that 1?

I think you mean misfortune out of the divination powers. I am unsure of the wording but I think it says that you re-roll successful saves. Since a 1 is not a successful save they can re-roll it, but if any of the re-rolls are a 1 then they stand and can't re-roll it.

In the situation the opening poster described did state the power was used to already force the opponent to re-roll an already successful save first.

The answer Chrysis gave is correct, unless otherwise noted you do not have permission to re-roll a re-roll. Therefore it will not matter where the re-roll came from, the second result is finial. The opponent in this situation can not simply state that the re-rolls are coming from different sources to justify it, as the rules for re-rolls do not work that way.

However, it goes both ways. If his first roll gives him a 1, he can reroll that, and cannot be forced to reroll it again if it is succesful on the reroll. So basically he has to reroll everything that is successful and all 1s from the first roll. After that, the second result sticks.

 Purifier wrote:
However, it goes both ways. If his first roll gives him a 1, he can reroll that, and cannot be forced to reroll it again if it is succesful on the reroll. So basically he has to reroll everything that is successful and all 1s from the first roll. After that, the second result sticks.

Pretty much this.

You can get your opponent to re-roll successful saves, and he will not be able to re-roll any 1s that result using the Daemons of Tzeentch rule. Likewise, if his initial roll is a 1, and then he passes with his Tzeentch re-roll, you cannot force him to re-roll that.

That's kind of what I thought, due to the rerolling 1s rule. So, here's another question. Does this actually lower a Tzeentch daemon's chances of making a successful save, since it forces a reroll for success and then denies the second chance? Or do the odds remain generally the same as before?

If he has a 2+save (through Gift of Mutation for instance, then the odds are the exact same as the first roll, as you are picking up all dice and rolling again. If not, then yes it makes it more likely to fail, as all their 2's would have already gone against it.

Overall it is a boost to the opposing player.

It does increase the chance of failure, simply due to the fact it requires a second dice roll to be had. It really is hard to calculate the % chance of failure exactly as the invulnerability save could very from 3-5/6 depending on the situation. However, because they have to make the roll twice, they are always going to have a lower chance of succeeding over having to roll the dice once.


Lets use the best case situation, for the Tzeetch's player, a hard to get 2+ as an example:
Without you forcing the re-roll the percent chance of failure is 2.7%, thanks to the ability to re-roll a one
With you forcing the re-roll the percentage chance of failure increases to 16.6%, as the first roll will never matter

 Iron Dragon wrote:
That's kind of what I thought, due to the rerolling 1s rule. So, here's another question. Does this actually lower a Tzeentch daemon's chances of making a successful save, since it forces a reroll for success and then denies the second chance? Or do the odds remain generally the same as before?

It becomes a situation where he can't succeed on his first throw, so the better save he has, the better his chances are of getting to the second throw.
If he has a 6+ save, he has 2 chances in 6 to get to the throw where he can actually save. So that means in order to save he has to roll a 1 or 6 followed by a 6. Those are not great odds.
If he has a 2+ save, everything gets rerolled on the first roll so you might as well not do that roll, and he can have his normal save of 2+ but without his tzeentch reroll of 1. So you've canceled that out.

2++ Before: 0.972
2++ After: 0.833

3++ Before: 0.777
3++ After: 0.555

4++ Before: 0.583
4++ After: 0.333

5++ Before: 0.388
5++ After: 0.166

6++ Before: 0.194
6++ After: 0.055

It's harder to make a save under any circumstance if you reroll successes.