US bloggers banned from entering UK

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**Dreadclaw69**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23064355

Two prominent US bloggers have been banned from entering the UK, the Home Office has said.

Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer co-founded anti-Muslim group Stop Islamization of America.

They were due to speak at an English Defence League march in Woolwich, where Drummer Lee Rigby was killed.

A government spokesman said individuals whose presence "is not conducive to the public good" could be excluded by the home secretary.

He added: "We condemn all those whose behaviours and views run counter to our shared values and will not stand for extremism in any form."

'Right decision'

Ms Geller, of the Atlas Shrugs blog, and Mr Spencer, of Jihad Watch, are also co-founders of the American Freedom Defense Initiative, best known for a pro-Israel "Defeat Jihad" poster campaign on the New York subway

On both of their blogs the pair called their bans from entering the UK "a striking blow against freedom" and said the "the nation that gave the world the Magna Carta is dead".

They were due to attend a march planned by the far-right EDL to mark Armed Forces Day on 29 June, ending in Woolwich, south east London, where soldier Drummer Rigby was murdered last month.

Keith Vaz, chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, who had called for the bloggers to be banned from the UK, said: "I welcome the home secretary's ban on Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer from entering the country. This is the right decision. The UK should never become a stage for inflammatory speakers who promote hate."

EDL leader Tommy Robinson, meanwhile, criticised the decision and said Ms Geller and Mr Spencer were coming to the UK to lay flowers at the place where Drummer Rigby died.

"It's embarrassing for this so-called land of democracy and freedom of speech," he said.

"How many hate preachers are living in this country? It just shows what sort of a two-tier system we have here."

'Foster hatred'

Anti-fascism campaigners Hope Not Hate had campaigned for the pair to not be allowed into the UK.

A researcher with the organisation, Matthew Collins, said it was "delighted" with the decision.

"These two are among some of the most extreme anti-Muslim activists in the world. They've nothing to contribute to life in this country.

"They're not here to contribute to good community relations. They only wanted to come here and help the EDL stir up more trouble. Britain doesn't need more hate even just for a few days."

Mr Spencer put up a copy of what appears to be the exclusion decision from the Home Office on the Jihad Watch website, while Ms Geller posted a copy of her letter on her website, Atlas Shrugs.

The letters, both dated Tuesday, claim that both activists have fallen within the scope of a list of unacceptable behaviours by making statements which may "foster hatred" and lead to "inter-community violence" in the UK.

Both letters gave examples of anti-Muslim views stated by both and went on to say that should they be allowed to enter the UK the home secretary believes they would "continue to espouse such views".

**LordofHats**

And now they know that the rest of the world tends to have a different view from us on the acceptability of hate speech.

**Mr Hyena**

He added: "We condemn all those whose behaviours and views run counter to our shared values and will not stand for extremism in any form."

Someone better deal with Westminster then. They didn't get the memo apparently.

**Howard A Treesong**

All they want to do is come here and do some racist gak stirring. You don't have an automatic right to enter this country, sod off.

**Salad_Fingers**

I kind of agree with this, i would say let them in if they where to speak in any real public forum (debate) in which the views they hold would more then likely be shown to be utterly ridiculous. A little like what happened to Nick Griffin (and the BNP) on question time.

However as it stands allowing these two in just to speak to the EDL where the hate they peddle would find a willing audience possibly should be stopped.

Hell the blog's can still be read so its not a massive kick in the face for free speech and we probably have enough home grown extremism on all sides here at the moment without inviting more in.

**George Spiggott**

Tommy Robinson via the BBC via Dreadclaw69 wrote:
EDL leader Tommy Robinson, meanwhile, criticised the decision and said Ms Geller and Mr Spencer were coming to the UK to lay flowers at the place where Drummer Rigby died.

What toss. These numpties came to Sheffield the other week. Lay flowers and fascist salute Sheffield's war memorial and sing foul racist chants all the way down the street more like.

slowed scumbags the lot of 'em.

**nels1031**

Meanwhile, man that calls for Muslims to go fight in Syria gets to film a TV show on the streets of London. Nothing bad can happen from young men (and women to lesser extent) that travel overseas to further destroy a country and its religious minorities. Nothing at all.

Also defended OBL and Al Qaeda, at one time to put it in further perspective.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/06/22/Fight-or-flight-Saudi-cleric-heads-to-London-after-calling-for-Jihad-in-Syria.html

Am I a madman for thinking thats a double standard?

Not defending Geller or Spencer, just wanted to point that out.

**daedalus**

NELS1031 wrote:
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/06/22/Fight-or-flight-Saudi-cleric-heads-to-London-after-calling-for-Jihad-in-Syria.html

Am I a madman for thinking thats a double standard?

Not defending Geller or Spencer, just wanted to point that out.

He's just practising his religion. Why do you have to be racist?

**nels1031**

daedalus wrote:
NELS1031 wrote:
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/06/22/Fight-or-flight-Saudi-cleric-heads-to-London-after-calling-for-Jihad-in-Syria.html

Am I a madman for thinking thats a double standard?

Not defending Geller or Spencer, just wanted to point that out.

He's just practising his religion. Why do you have to be racist?

I guess I'll never go on my vacation to Britian :(

**reds8n**

On his upcoming program, the Saudi cleric will address religious diversity in Britain as he meets Muslim youth to promote peaceful coexistence with non-Muslims.

He has already begun pushing his agenda on the social media. “I've mixed with the British public in London & found them to be pleasant, polite & respectful towards all religions," Arefe tweeted on Thursday to his more than five million followers.

"The Law in UK treats British Muslims with fairness. Muslims should reflect a true image of their religion through their dealing," Arefe added on Twitter.

**notprop**

NELS1031 wrote:
Meanwhile, man that calls for Muslims to go fight in Syria gets to film a TV show on the streets of London. Nothing bad can happen from young men (and women to lesser extent) that travel overseas to further destroy a country and its religious minorities. Nothing at all.

Also defended OBL and Al Qaeda, at one time to put it in further perspective.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/06/22/Fight-or-flight-Saudi-cleric-heads-to-London-after-calling-for-Jihad-in-Syria.html

Am I a madman for thinking thats a double standard?

Not defending Geller or Spencer, just wanted to point that out.

The thing is once their in they are protected by our laws and the European convention on human rights. I'm guessing this cleric chap doesn't have a website expousing his views, certainly not one that came to the attention of the Home Sectretary anyway. The Bloggers are an easier catch I'm guessing.

**Mr Hyena**

NELS1031 wrote:
Meanwhile, man that calls for Muslims to go fight in Syria gets to film a TV show on the streets of London. Nothing bad can happen from young men (and women to lesser extent) that travel overseas to further destroy a country and its religious minorities. Nothing at all.

Also defended OBL and Al Qaeda, at one time to put it in further perspective.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/06/22/Fight-or-flight-Saudi-cleric-heads-to-London-after-calling-for-Jihad-in-Syria.html

Am I a madman for thinking thats a double standard?

Not defending Geller or Spencer, just wanted to point that out.

Its because in Britain, the only protected people are muslims, no matter if they're calling for the death of our police, army, people, or whatever.

**Steve steveson**

reds8n wrote:

On his upcoming program, the Saudi cleric will address religious diversity in Britain as he meets Muslim youth to promote peaceful coexistence with non-Muslims.

He has already begun pushing his agenda on the social media. “I've mixed with the British public in London & found them to be pleasant, polite & respectful towards all religions," Arefe tweeted on Thursday to his more than five million followers.

"The Law in UK treats British Muslims with fairness. Muslims should reflect a true image of their religion through their dealing," Arefe added on Twitter.

Wow... He sounds like a right evil one with all that love for London and calling people to intervene in Syria... Not like them right thinking bloggers...

**nels1031**

notprop wrote:
The thing is once their in they are protected by our laws and the European convention on human rights. I'm guessing this cleric chap doesn't have a website expousing his views, certainly not one that came to the attention of the Home Sectretary anyway. The Bloggers are an easier catch I'm guessing.

He's Saudi, not British and It was on Al-Jazeera, the Arab worlds biggest news channel. I'm willing to bet it gets just a few more views then Spencer or Gellers blogs. He's somewhat famous for his extreme fatwas.

@Reds8n : How do you square up what you quoted with his previous words though. That OBL and AlQaeda are victims of character assassination and don't deserve the bad rep they get, that all Sunni muslim men should go to Syria to kill the regime forces etc etc.

Because he's doing some interfaith program all is forgiven? You think he won't share his views on Syria with the Muslim youth of your nation?

Do you or do you not think its a double standard?

**Steve steveson**

NELS1031 wrote:

Because he's doing some interfaith program all is forgiven? You think he won't share his views on Syria with the Muslim youth of your nation?

Do you or do you not think its a double standard?

What? His view that Muslims should support the uprising in Syria? I'm sorry, but it seems you are the one with double standards, given that this is the view of many people, including mainstream politicians in the US and the UK (That the uprising should be supported, not necessarily by Muslims, but by the US and the UK)...

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/US-military-chief-recommends-training-Lebanese-forces-in-face-of-Syria-spillover-317899
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323419604578569830070537040.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23053048
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/changing-us-policy-in-syria.aspx?pageID=449&nID=49536&NewsCatID=468

And so on and so on....

I don't agree with him, but then I also don't agree with miletery intervention, but you can't exactly call his views on Syria extreme when they are in line with those of many other people in the UK and the US.

I'm sorry, but this just seems like something fueled by your own prejudice than anything real.

**Palindrome**

NELS1031 wrote:

I guess I'll never go on my vacation to Britian :(

What have you done to be refused entry?

**nels1031**

Palindrome wrote:
NELS1031 wrote:

I guess I'll never go on my vacation to Britian :(

What have you done to be refused entry?

I was being facetious, in reply to daedalus.

**reds8n**

NELS1031 wrote:

@Reds8n : How do you square up what you quoted with his previous words though. That OBL and AlQaeda are victims of character assassination and don't deserve the bad rep they get, that all Sunni muslim men should go to Syria to kill the regime forces etc etc.

Because he's doing some interfaith program all is forgiven? You think he won't share his views on Syria with the Muslim youth of your nation?

Do you or do you not think its a double standard?

This would be the Syrian regime that we're currently actively aiding in the overthrow of yes ?

.. So.. for me... if you want to go and probably die a futile death in Syria whilst --as is ever the way -- the fat bastard who tells you it's a great and good thing to do and he's right behind you, several hundred miles and possibly even continental distances behind you, stays at home all tucked up warmly and safe -- then power to you.

.. So.. yeah, if he wants to come here and drone on about how we should all hold hands, and try and love one and other right now .. fair enough.

If he does start stirring up trouble or whatever ... bye then !

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/06/23/pamela-geller-and-robert-spencer-rail-against-british-reporters-ahead-of-planned-uk-visit/

As has been widely reported; from the Independent:
Right-wing American speakers planning to join the EDL’s Woolwich march ‘should be banned from entering the country’
The Home Secretary is understood to be considering a request to ban two of the people behind a campaign against New York’s “Ground Zero Mosque” from entering the UK.
Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, who are among America’s most notorious anti-Muslim campaigners, have been invited to speak at an English Defence League rally in Woolwich to mark Armed Forces Day and the death of Drummer Lee Rigby. But the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee Keith Vaz has written to Ms May expressing his concern and labelling them “incendiary speakers”.
…Neither Ms Geller nor Mr Spencer responded to requests for comment.
I expect that the two will be excluded from the UK on the catch-all grounds that their presence is deemed to be “not conducive to the public good” – other Americans who have been banned from entry on these grounds in recent years include the abusive anti-Islam polemicist Michael Savage and the faith healer Todd Bentley.
Spencer previously visited the UK in 2009, although at that time he wanted no association with the nascent EDL and he made noises about “libel” when it was suggested he had met figures from the group. For a time, Geller was ambivalent about the EDL, although she finally cemented links a year ago. In September, Yaxley-Lennon and Kevin Carroll attended an event organised by Geller in New York, which involved Yaxley-Lennon using someone else’s passport to enter the USA. Yaxley-Lennon’s subsequent arrest over the passport fraud was described by Geller as “shariah inspired victimisation”, and he and Geller asked Americans to make donations for his legal defence.
The Independent report - by Kevin Rawlinson – has not been received well by Spencer:
Why is it “right-wing” to fight for the freedom of speech, the freedom of conscience, and equality of rights for all people?…
“Anti-Muslim”: Leftists and Islamic supremacists favor this label because it implies that those who are fighting for freedom are actually against a particular group, and want to deny them rights rather than protect the rights of all… We never speak about “all Muslims” in any way, or call for any illegal action or any action at all against innocent people.
… Rawlinson is lying outright. He made no attempt to contact me.
As ever with Spencer, the affected righteous outrage ignores a few issues.
First, it’s clear that Geller and Spencer are right-wing: Geller describes Barack Obama as a “mad commie clown”, and she has promoted claims that he is a secret Muslim and that there are mysteries about the circumstances of his birth and parentage (although she objects bitterly when anyone brings up an article that appeared on her website promoting the thesis that Obama’s father was Malcolm X, on the grounds that the piece was written by someone else and that she only semi-endorses its claims). They are also both closely allied with conservative groups and individuals.
Second, while it’s true that Geller and Spencer do pay lip-service to a distinction between “anti-Muslim” and “anti-Islam”, I’m not convinced that it’s anything more than a paper-thin rhetorical strategy – I discussed a libel action threat made by Geller over the anti-Muslim label here, and a similar complaint by Spencer here. Their allies include Babu Suseelan, a Hindu militant who claims that Muslims “breed like rats” but that Islam can be “wiped out”, and it was only bad publicly that prompted the two to cut links with John Joseph Jay, a man who openly called for violence against Muslims and others.
Meanwhile, Rawlinson has responded to the claim that he is “lying outright” by posting a screenshot of his request, which was sent to the Facebook page of their Stop Islamization of America organisation.
Rawlinson is not the only British media figure to be facing the duo’s wrath; an article in the Huffington Post by Jessica Elgot described them as “far-right, anti-Islam”, prompting Geller to call Elgot ”a less than affable Eva Braun”. The insult was derived from an old piece of abuse by Ann Coulter against Katie Couric; Elgot, who is Jewish and formerly worked for the Jewish Chronicle, says that the “the sheer volume of Nazi-themed insults” is “quite baffling”.

Got enough spankers of our own over here as it is thank you very much.

see also

http://exposingon.tumblr.com/post/53534314795/why-professional-hate-princess-pamela-geller-just

And for the record we've also barred Muslim preachers Al-Qaradawi and Zakir Naik from entering the country previously.

**Palindrome**

NELS1031 wrote:

I was being facetious, in reply to daedalus.

I'm so glad that you cleared that up.

**Mr Hyena**

And for the record we've also barred Muslim preachers Al-Qaradawi and Zakir Naik from entering the country previously.

Yet Abu Hamza was allowed to stay, when he said far worse than anyone did before.

**nels1031**

Steve steveson wrote:
I'm sorry, but this just seems like something fueled by your own prejudice than anything real.

I am slightly prejudiced, I'll admit, I mean the dude defended Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. A group thats a tad bit more hardcore then EDL I think.

We seem to be in agreement that all parties involved are asshats, but his views are somehow more tolerable then the Anti-muslim bloggers?

In regards to Syria, calling for individuals from foreign nations to fight a war in another nation is fundamentally different( I may be mistaken, but I think its also illegal under international law) then calling for international intervention under the auspices of the United Nations.

Your own government fears that some of the ones already there will come back with intent to cause harm in your country. A few have even been arrested since the war in Syria started.

**Steve steveson**

Mr Hyena wrote:
And for the record we've also barred Muslim preachers Al-Qaradawi and Zakir Naik from entering the country previously.

Yet Abu Hamza was allowed to stay, when he said far worse than anyone did before.

So? There is a big difference between refusing a visa to someone and deporting someone claiming asylum.

**Kilkrazy**

Mr Hyena wrote:
And for the record we've also barred Muslim preachers Al-Qaradawi and Zakir Naik from entering the country previously.

Yet Abu Hamza was allowed to stay, when he said far worse than anyone did before.

The government has spent months and millions of pounds in judicial reviews trying to get Abu Hamza out.

**Steve steveson**

NELS1031 wrote:

I am slightly prejudiced, I'll admit, I mean the dude defended Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. A group thats a tad bit more hardcore then EDL I think.

So? They were not refused entry for links to the EDL, but for what they have said. This is an irrelevant point, and nothing to do with prejudiced. Anyway, I would call many members of the EDL in line in terms of hatred but not as grand in the implementation.

NELS1031 wrote:

We seem to be in agreement that all parties involved are asshats, but his views are somehow more tolerable then the Anti-muslim bloggers?

You are letting your prejudice cloud your view. Nothing he seems to have said is near what the two bloggers are saying.

NELS1031 wrote:

In regards to Syria, calling for individuals from foreign nations to fight a war in another nation is fundamentally different( I may be mistaken, but I think its also illegal under international law) then calling for international intervention under the auspices of the United Nations.

It is not fundamentally different. For a start, individuals are not bound under international law, country are. He is not a politician. They are both calling for the same thing in ways within there powers and legal restrictions. And you say that as if the US takes any notice at all of what the UN say. The US time and again ignores UN treatys, laws and sanctions unless it suits them.

NELS1031 wrote:

Your own government fears that some of the ones already there will come back with intent to cause harm in your country. A few have even been arrested since the war in Syria started.

So?

You are making the his actions and the bloggers the same when in truth he has made some very mild statements, often in line with calls from politicians and main stream media in the west and the bolggers have made extremely racist comments about Muslims and stir up hatred. Hatred that has led to a number of attacks and violent incidents in the UK in recent months.

**nels1031**

Steve steveson wrote:
Nothing he seems to have said is near what the two bloggers are saying.

He defended Al Qaeda and their leader...

Its also worth noting that his calls for intervention in Syria is not humanitarian but sectarian, him being a virulent anti-shiite. Nothing good can come from adding fuel to that sectarian fire in Syria and most likely Lebanon soon enough. And maybe more in the region.

You keep saying I'm prejudiced, but I'm not (the way you are implying it, like I'm also anti-muslim like the bloggers) I have no dog in this fight, I just think its a silly double standard.

I'm not outraged at the Geller/Spencer refusal of entry, its just that I had read the al-arabiyah article earlier today and it was fresh on my mind and seemed pretty strange that someone whose been rebuked by the Saudi religious establishment for his views (?!?!?) is free to roam Londons streets but the other two folks get denied entry.

**Mr Hyena**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
And for the record we've also barred Muslim preachers Al-Qaradawi and Zakir Naik from entering the country previously.

Yet Abu Hamza was allowed to stay, when he said far worse than anyone did before.

The government has spent months and millions of pounds in judicial reviews trying to get Abu Hamza out.

Thats the point. If he is also 'incendiary' then why not just remove him without all the hassle? Ship him back to his country the same way they did the US guys. He can hardly claim asylum when hes calling for the death of the country thats taken him in.

So? There is a big difference between refusing a visa to someone and deporting someone claiming asylum.

He can't claim asylum if hes wishing death on his new country of residence.

**Ketara**

Mr Hyena wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
And for the record we've also barred Muslim preachers Al-Qaradawi and Zakir Naik from entering the country previously.

Yet Abu Hamza was allowed to stay, when he said far worse than anyone did before.

The government has spent months and millions of pounds in judicial reviews trying to get Abu Hamza out.

Thats the point. If he is also 'incendiary' then why not just remove him without all the hassle? Ship him back to his country the same way they did the US guys. He can hardly claim asylum when hes calling for the death of the country thats taken him in.

You may not have noticed it, but we have this little thing here called, 'due procedure'.

Leave it to the French Government to make grandstanding, nationalistic abuses of the law. We have a bit more class than that.

**Mr Hyena**

Ketara wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
And for the record we've also barred Muslim preachers Al-Qaradawi and Zakir Naik from entering the country previously.

Yet Abu Hamza was allowed to stay, when he said far worse than anyone did before.

The government has spent months and millions of pounds in judicial reviews trying to get Abu Hamza out.

Thats the point. If he is also 'incendiary' then why not just remove him without all the hassle? Ship him back to his country the same way they did the US guys. He can hardly claim asylum when hes calling for the death of the country thats taken him in.

You may not have noticed it, but we have this little thing here called, 'due procedure'.

Leave it to the French Government to make grandstanding, nationalistic abuses of the law. We have a bit more class than that.

But not enough class to be above picking and choosing who gets special treatment.

**Steve steveson**

Mr Hyena wrote:

But not enough class to be above picking and choosing who gets special treatment.

But no one is getting special treatment.

NELS1031 wrote:

You keep saying I'm prejudiced, but I'm not (the way you are implying it, like I'm also anti-muslim like the bloggers) I have no dog in this fight, I just think its a silly double standard.

I'm not outraged at the Geller/Spencer refusal of entry, its just that I had read the al-arabiyah article earlier today and it was fresh on my mind and seemed pretty strange that someone whose been rebuked by the Saudi religious establishment for his views (?!?!?) is free to roam Londons streets but the other two folks get denied entry.

And there are no double standards. One of two things has happened:

1) The visa was not put through honestly
2) It was and it was decided that he was not a problem.

The only double standards are that you are judging him more harshly than the bloggers.

The idea that the UK somehow give an easy ride to Muslims, or treats them better for whatever reason is just nonsense based on racism. There is so much anti Muslim racism sometimes it is frightening.

**nels1031**

Steve steveson wrote:

And there are no double standards. One of two things has happened:

1) The visa was not put through honestly
2) It was and it was decided that he was not a problem.

The only double standards are that you are judging him more harshly than the bloggers.

The idea that the UK somehow give an easy ride to Muslims, or treats them better for whatever reason is just nonsense based on racism. There is so much anti Muslim racism sometimes it is frightening.

Its obvious that there is a disconnect between the words I'm writing and how you are interpreting them, that you accuse me of racism.

I give zero feths what his race is. He could be a alien space monkey from the depths of Uranus and he'd still be a douchebag for defending Al Qaeda and OBL. Its fine that your cool with that, and him coming to your country. I'm sure you have your reasons for supporting him and condoning his views . Are you going to appear on his program or see any of his lectures while he's in town?