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I love running a Fateweaver or a LoC in my Chaos Daemon list.

So I'd like to take a Tz prince as a heavy as well.

But is he worth it?

Slaanesh and Nurgle princes seem so much better. Slaanesh for potential s9 shots at flyers, Nurgle for durability and insta-death sword.

I've heard some people roll telepathy on Tzeentch princes in hopes of rolling invisibility. But how is that cost effective when a nurgle price comes with shrouding and stealth (within 8in) for free?

Thoughts? How can a run a Tzeentch Prince effectively?

No they aren't, a Tzeentch Daemon Prince can reroll half the failed saves most of the time.

On top of that having a Ld10 for Psychic tests also help.
AP2 makes Slaanesh's rending kinda pointless and in the sky you already are fast enough to get to anywhere on the board.

Nurgle is even worse, S&P means no sweeping which the DP can use so often with I8 chances are you're going to be sweeping units left and right. Shrouded is good but on average I think the 3+ rerollable 1 is much better than a maybe 2+/3+ cover save which the most feared army of us Tau can ignore.

A Tzeentch Prince at least for me I roll for Telepathy only and hope for hallucination or puppet master, those things are pretty darn insane.
Hallucination makes the assault sooo much more easier than it should that it's not even funny.
Shooting a fliers shouldn't be done by a DP, Bloodthirsters and LoC's have a better chance of shooting them down, but in all honesty there's no reliable AA in our codex.

 Makutsu wrote:
No they aren't, a Tzeentch Daemon Prince can reroll half the failed saves most of the time.

On top of that having a Ld10 for Psychic tests also help.
AP2 makes Slaanesh's rending kinda pointless and in the sky you already are fast enough to get to anywhere on the board.

Nurgle is even worse, S&P means no sweeping which the DP can use so often with I8 chances are you're going to be sweeping units left and right. Shrouded is good but on average I think the 3+ rerollable 1 is much better than a maybe 2+/3+ cover save which the most feared army of us Tau can ignore.

A Tzeentch Prince at least for me I roll for Telepathy only and hope for hallucination or puppet master, those things are pretty darn insane.
Hallucination makes the assault sooo much more easier than it should that it's not even funny.
Shooting a fliers shouldn't be done by a DP, Bloodthirsters and LoC's have a better chance of shooting them down, but in all honesty there's no reliable AA in our codex.

Not entirely true, Flickering Fire is good at killing AV 10 fliers (which is most of them because a FMC can always reach armor). With jink, 3 WC averages 3.11 HP with a 1/4 chance of exploding it outright. AV11 though, not great (although doable). The raven is the problem, the codex essentially has one answer to the Storm Raven....which is a Slaneesh Prince (preferably with Iron Arm). I've allied in a Heldrake with a Hades Autocannon (prescience plus daemonforge is the Stormraven remover) at times, which feels so wrong.

Flickering fire is so bad compared to other things that the dp could get say puppet master a flier to shoot another flier.

Also most of the time you wont get rear armor since you're flying as well, getting to shoot at it's rear end means that you probably should be assaulting instead

 Makutsu wrote:
Flickering fire is so bad compared to other things that the dp could get say puppet master a flier to shoot another flier.

Also most of the time you wont get rear armor since you're flying as well, getting to shoot at it's rear end means that you probably should be assaulting instead

Flickering Fire is not bad at all, it owns light armor and xeno infantry (Fateweaver or a LoC kills 11 Firewarriors if he even looks in their direction). I know the general wisdom was "Flickering Fire is horrible" for a while, but that's been pretty much dropped now. It's not great against some targets, but it absolutely wrecks a lot of armies. Watch some of JY2's batreps where he's running his 50 Shades of Pink or LoC and Load builds, he puts out the hurt with FF.

And there are multiple ways to run a flying circus, my FMCs rarely assault, they do much more damage with psychic powers (blessings, maledictions and witchfire all) and vector strikes. A healthy mix of telepathy, biomancy and flickering fire can get ridiculous. Honestly, I think an assault based flying circus is subobtimal, and you're much better off using your insane speed, 360 degree firing arc, and outrageous powers to control the map (and support a dedicated and durable assault unit, like hounds or properly buffed Seekers).

I didn't say flickering fire was bad against everything else, I'm just saying that flickering fire is horrible against fliers.
Since,
1. Most fliers are AV12
2. If you do get rear armor then chances are you could have assaulted.
3. Lord of Change or Fateweaver or pink horrors probably should be the ones shooting.
4. A DP geared up is 300 points, so you want a 300 point model shooting heavy bolters that could be completely useless 1/6 of the time?
5. Flickering fire is good against light armor or infantry which the Daemon Prince could do better by sweeping the entire unit just by getting into combat.

Well, the Daemon Player that was top 16 in Adepticon had a Slaanesh FMC, so not sure if assault based ones are actually subpar.

they went slaanesh for Lash I believe, so the DPs were shooting as well.

Flickering Fire seems like a great way to down Vendettas or Drakes. Each turn you'll kill one on average not counting any vector strikes.


Plus no concerns about granting any vehicle FnP.

 Makutsu wrote:
I didn't say flickering fire was bad against everything else, I'm just saying that flickering fire is horrible against fliers.
Since,
1. Most fliers are AV12
2. If you do get rear armor then chances are you could have assaulted.
3. Lord of Change or Fateweaver or pink horrors probably should be the ones shooting.
4. A DP geared up is 300 points, so you want a 300 point model shooting heavy bolters that could be completely useless 1/6 of the time?
5. Flickering fire is good against light armor or infantry which the Daemon Prince could do better by sweeping the entire unit just by getting into combat.

Well, the Daemon Player that was top 16 in Adepticon had a Slaanesh FMC, so not sure if assault based ones are actually subpar.

1-2) It’s situational obviously, but a lot of times you’re flying 24 inches to get into the rear arc of a flier anyway, so you might as well put it down (which FF will do to most fliers). If there is only one on the board, sure, ignore it. But if you’re facing a heavy flier list, it’s worth it to take FF on a few DPs and use them for anti air. That’s what’s nice about the circus, you have so much versatility pre-game.

4-5) Yes, many times it’s much better to shoot something to death than assault it. Your example is great, let’s say I can kill a vehicle or a weak unit by smashing/sweeping it, or I can shoot it to death with FF. If I shoot it to death, I’m 24 inches away, in the position of my choosing (out of LOS/range to dangerous units, in ruins, whatever). If I sweep/smash it, great, now I’m sitting on the ground, probably in the middle of his gunline. In your example, the majority of the time it’s better to shoot. Sometimes, yes, I’d rather assault with my FMCs. But generally I do that after I’ve crippled the Army with powers/vector strikes/shooting. Again, versatility. Plus the speed to pick engagements. With FF a DP has a 48 inch threat range (plus en route vector strikes), that’s amazing. Use that speed to control the map and only present targets that you don’t care if they get shot (invulnerable Fateweaver, Hounds with a 3++ one inch from their Aegis, an invisible Prince. Whatever)

You mean Goatboy? Running the list that he himself was suboptimal? (exact quote “my list isn't as tuned as I would like I still think it has a chance versus a lot of the field” http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/04/goatboys-monday-thoughts-on-daemons.html) The one with three Slaneesh Princes, picked primarily because of their anti air capability with Lash (“They have wings and armor and are usually designed to hurt flyers with their Lashes of Despair”).? The same unit I mentioned earlier in this thread as being the CD’s only option against Ravens? Thank you for making my point for me…

Although you bring up an interesting point, all three “GT” CD lists (Goatboy’s adepticon, the GUO/FW Circus from WGcon, and the Grinder/Dog Rush/LoC list from WGcon) are all different. That’s the sign of a great codex to me. It has a lot of options, and we don’t have to agree on what’s optimal. An assault Flying Circus can work, and so can a shooty one (although I run mine both ways, again, versatility and speed are what make CD awesome).

You don’t even have to agree with me on FF being a good normal choice for a DP. But if you go up against 5 Vendettas or whatever, you can choose the tool I recommend pre-game (yay Primaris) and use it, and in every other match up just play your way. Because trust me, you won’t have any issues shooting them down.

I agree, versatility is a great point for them i guess. OLI sortof see your point now, the best thing is though you get to choose how to deal with the army when you start rolling which is amazong for them

Ah, but if I am rolling everything on Telepathy instead of the survivability of Biomancy, won't he just get shot out of the sky and killed?

At the end of the day (rolling telepathy and not getting invisibility), he's a T5 target with a 3+/5+. And the armour can be ignored by many things.

At least with Slaanesh and Nurgle I'd be getting Biomancy and with Nurgle a 3+ or 2+ cover.

Someone showed me a way for a prince of Tzeentch to get a 2++ rerollable save. Which makes me interested.

 Kain wrote:
Someone showed me a way for a prince of Tzeentch to get a 2++ rerollable save. Which makes me interested.

Relies on getting Invisibility. Fairly strong if you're just flying around.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Someone showed me a way for a prince of Tzeentch to get a 2++ rerollable save. Which makes me interested.

Relies on getting Invisibility. Fairly strong if you're just flying around.

I think it needs forewarning, the grimoire and some other thing, check the Horus thread.

Ahh true. Invis would only get it to a 2+ in most terrain. Or when jinking I think ...

Slaanesh is the most competitive DP choice by a pretty solid margin. Lash is just incredibly good. If you roll Iron Arm then you are looking at an average of 7 S8 shots that are hitting on 2s and can have skyfire. This is one of the best anti-air weapons in the game, particularly since you can get rear shots pretty easily. If you didn't roll Iron Arm then you still get an average of 7 S6 shots which is better than Flickering Fire, which costs a warp charge, is only S5, requires a psychic test, and can be denied. There is really no comparison if you want to look at ranged effectiveness. Lash is also a Greater Gift, which gives you some flexibility if you roll gifts that are sub par. A Tzeentch prince is just wasting his gift rolls if he gets something that isn't great. To top it all off, the Slaanesh prince is cheaper than the Tzeentch prince by about 25 points. You don't take the Slaanesh prince for its Rending or Run bonus, you take it for the Lash.

The Tzeentch prince brings two things to the table: save rerolls and the staff of change. Being S8 in combat without Iron Arm is very nice and it makes the Tzeentch prince more dangerous in CC than the Slaanesh prince. Rerolling 1s for saves is nice against small arms fire but won't do much if you are relying on your invulnerable save. If you are using a Grimoire then you can get a very strong save but Grimoire is pretty bad on Princes because your opponent can just target one of your other identical princes instead. Use the Grimoire to buff large units of dogs, seekers, or the Fateweaver instead.

The only reason to bring a Tzeentch prince over a Slaanesh prince is if you cannot fit a Keeper of Secrets in your list. Since you probably want a LoC or the Fateweaver in your list, this means that you cannot take Heralds or a Bloodthirster. If you want to take either of these units then the Tzeentch princes are a good backup but just remind yourself that you could have had a Lash of Despair every time your Flickering Fire fails to glance, gets denied, fails a psychic test, or you don't have enough warp charges to cast all the spells you wanted.

Typical Slaanesh Prince build:
Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Gifts, Mastery 3

Typical Tzeentch Prince build:
Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Gifts, 1 Lesser Gift, Mastery 3

UncleMeat wrote:


Typical Slaanesh Prince build:
Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Gifts, Mastery 3

Good post but I had a few questions or thoughts.

#1 Is the chance of Iron Arm worth the 75 points? Yeah, it's fairly likely to get it if you roll straight biomancy and the other options aren't half bad but it's a lot of points on an already expensive model. Plus there is the LD9 aspect to consider.
S6 and Lash is enough to smash almost any vehicle if you can get rear armor shots and on the rare AV12 rear armor, you're still glancing it along with vector strikes.

#2 Does the Slaaneshi Prince have value as an allied choice? Compared to a Greater Daemon, it seems like you're getting a weaker overall model BUT as you said, you're getting a very solid AA platform.

 minigun762 wrote:

UncleMeat wrote:


Typical Slaanesh Prince build:
Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Gifts, Mastery 3

Good post but I had a few questions or thoughts.

#1 Is the chance of Iron Arm worth the 75 points? Yeah, it's fairly likely to get it if you roll straight biomancy and the other options aren't half bad but it's a lot of points on an already expensive model. Plus there is the LD9 aspect to consider.
S6 and Lash is enough to smash almost any vehicle if you can get rear armor shots and on the rare AV12 rear armor, you're still glancing it along with vector strikes.

#2 Does the Slaaneshi Prince have value as an allied choice? Compared to a Greater Daemon, it seems like you're getting a weaker overall model BUT as you said, you're getting a very solid AA platform.

You get a lot more than just Iron Arm for your 75 points. You can roll on Biomancy and Telepathy, which are both full of strong spells. Since MCs can fire two weapons, it isn't too awful if you have to grab Smite or one of the mediocre shooting attacks. Endurance, Enfeeble, Psychic Shriek, Puppet Master, Hallucination, Invisibility, Iron Arm, and Life Leech are all great powers that can boost your army's effectiveness.

A Slaanesh prince is a solid allied choice. Flying MCs are better in bunches though, so it might not be a super great addition to a lot of armies.

UncleMeat wrote:
Slaanesh is the most competitive DP choice by a pretty solid margin. Lash is just incredibly good. If you roll Iron Arm then you are looking at an average of 7 S8 shots that are hitting on 2s and can have skyfire. This is one of the best anti-air weapons in the game, particularly since you can get rear shots pretty easily. If you didn't roll Iron Arm then you still get an average of 7 S6 shots which is better than Flickering Fire, which costs a warp charge, is only S5, requires a psychic test, and can be denied. There is really no comparison if you want to look at ranged effectiveness. Lash is also a Greater Gift, which gives you some flexibility if you roll gifts that are sub par. A Tzeentch prince is just wasting his gift rolls if he gets something that isn't great. To top it all off, the Slaanesh prince is cheaper than the Tzeentch prince by about 25 points. You don't take the Slaanesh prince for its Rending or Run bonus, you take it for the Lash.

The Tzeentch prince brings two things to the table: save rerolls and the staff of change. Being S8 in combat without Iron Arm is very nice and it makes the Tzeentch prince more dangerous in CC than the Slaanesh prince. Rerolling 1s for saves is nice against small arms fire but won't do much if you are relying on your invulnerable save. If you are using a Grimoire then you can get a very strong save but Grimoire is pretty bad on Princes because your opponent can just target one of your other identical princes instead. Use the Grimoire to buff large units of dogs, seekers, or the Fateweaver instead.

The only reason to bring a Tzeentch prince over a Slaanesh prince is if you cannot fit a Keeper of Secrets in your list. Since you probably want a LoC or the Fateweaver in your list, this means that you cannot take Heralds or a Bloodthirster. If you want to take either of these units then the Tzeentch princes are a good backup but just remind yourself that you could have had a Lash of Despair every time your Flickering Fire fails to glance, gets denied, fails a psychic test, or you don't have enough warp charges to cast all the spells you wanted.

Typical Slaanesh Prince build:
Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Gifts, Mastery 3

Typical Tzeentch Prince build:
Wings, Armor, 2 Greater Gifts, 1 Lesser Gift, Mastery 3

For a start flickering fire can be s6 (only from horrors and heralds though) but with 20 horrors and 2 heralds one casting presciecne, rest shooting that is 11d6 of shots re rolling to hit on 6's so FF can be done for anti air.

Also Slaanesh princes have a major disadvantage to tzeentch princes, re rolling 1's, the biggest thing that will usually kill a prince is weight of fire from small arms being only t5 forcing you to roll a few armour saves, being able to re roll half your failed saves is huge. Also the advantage of plus 3 LD is great against GK's and ld 10 is simply better then ld9 when casting powers. Also being str8 all the time for the cost of 10pts is also very important imo.

Also having to swap out a greater reward hurts the suriviability of the princes, what happens if you roll 4+ FNP then roll +1 wound it will not die, are you going to swap out FNP then roll +1 wound or vice versa, the greater rewards are there imo to get those two results or re roll invuls to make them more surivable.

MarkyMark wrote:


For a start flickering fire can be s6 (only from horrors and heralds though) but with 20 horrors and 2 heralds one casting presciecne, rest shooting that is 11d6 of shots re rolling to hit on 6's so FF can be done for anti air.

Also Slaanesh princes have a major disadvantage to tzeentch princes, re rolling 1's, the biggest thing that will usually kill a prince is weight of fire from small arms being only t5 forcing you to roll a few armour saves, being able to re roll half your failed saves is huge. Also the advantage of plus 3 LD is great against GK's and ld 10 is simply better then ld9 when casting powers. Also being str8 all the time for the cost of 10pts is also very important imo.

Also having to swap out a greater reward hurts the suriviability of the princes, what happens if you roll 4+ FNP then roll +1 wound it will not die, are you going to swap out FNP then roll +1 wound or vice versa, the greater rewards are there imo to get those two results or re roll invuls to make them more surivable.

You are never going to get S6 flickering fire from a prince. When comparing Slaanesh and Tzeentch princes this is not relevant.

Rerolling 1s on your 3+ save gives you a 77% chance to save against small arms fire. A normal 3+ gives you a 66% chance to save. We go from needing 3 wounds to cause a failed save to 4.5. That is a pretty significant increase, true. If we look at the 5++ save we go from needing 1.5 wounds to cause a failed save to 1.63 wounds, so it is pretty much worthless against anything but AP4 or weaker weapons. The weapons I see this being most useful against are Tesla Destructors, Missilesides, and Quad Guns. Against these weapons this is a pretty useful bonus. Bolter fire is going to do nothing with or without the reroll because of hard to hit. The real threat from Bolter fire is the grounding test, for which you will take your invulnerable save. If you expect a lot of Missilesides in your meta then this becomes a decent bonus, but I still don't think it is worth it.

The Ld bonus is only useful when casting psychic powers. Going from Ld 9 to Ld10 is solid. You have a 1/12 chance of that mattering for each of your psychic rolls so if you are casting all of your powers every turn this will probably save you one perils test per game.

S8 is useful, but I already run a LoC for instant-killing characters so I don't find this as essential as it could be. Useful for killing Wraiths and MCs.

I'm not sure if extra roll on the Greater Gifts table for Tzeentch is better than the extra psychic power each turn Slaanesh (since you will be spending on charge on Flickering Fire).

In my mind, all of these things just don't match up to how amazing Lash is. Most people are bringing fliers and the lash is one of the best anti-flyer weapons in the game. It is also very effective against the Wave Serpents that are becoming common after the Eldar update. If anti-flier becomes less necessary over time then I would consider going back to Tzeentch princes but at the moment I think Slaanesh is the way to.

Nurgle dp can get relentless thru bionancy so can sweep.

My favorite is the Slaanesh prince for sure. Just wish you didn't have to pay the KoS tax for him. Don't think I want to drop a LoC for one in hq slot.

@Those that are pro Tzeentch prince: Telepathy or Biomancy?

Budzerker wrote:
Nurgle dp can get relentless thru bionancy so can sweep.

My favorite is the Slaanesh prince for sure. Just wish you didn't have to pay the KoS tax for him. Don't think I want to drop a LoC for one in hq slot.

@Those that are pro Tzeentch prince: Telepathy or Biomancy?

I wouldn't say I'm "pro Tzeentch Prince" so much as I'm "anti Keeper" (my current semi circus has FW and a Slaneesh Prince as HQ, and two Tzeentch Princes in HS), but I would say your power's choice depends a lot on your match up. If he has a lot of Walkers or MCs, you really need Endurance or Iron Arm so that your Princes can go handle STR10. That said, I'm a big fan of invis on a Tzeentch Prince, mostly because I like to make my Grimoire invulnerable. But I decide pre match up, how many rolls I'm willing to give before I start trying to pick up other powers I need (while Hallucinate, Dominate, Terrify, Puppet Master and to a lesser extent Shriek are all great powers, I rarely need more than one of each in a list).

That said, that 1/6 games where FW gets invis, against most Armies you can just take Fateweaver and his buddy, the Grimoire Carrying Prince, up the board and nearly instant win (they just trade buffs on each other).

UncleMeat,

How do you use your princes?, as firebases or as CC. I personnaly run mine as CC monsters, hence the 2 greater rewards and 2 rolls on biomancy, by turn 2 I am usually in CC and turn 1 in enemys deployment thanks to 24inch fly and 2d6 run moves.

I do agree Slaanesh does sound good, I will have to try them soon as I order a KoS. I have had a lot of success with my tzeentch list though

anonymou5 wrote:
I wouldn't say I'm "pro Tzeentch Prince" so much as I'm "anti Keeper" (my current semi circus has FW and a Slaneesh Prince as HQ, and two Tzeentch Princes in HS),

I completely agree with you. I want to try out three Slaanesh DPs, but the need to bring a KoS in one of the HQ slots really gets me down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UncleMeat wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:


For a start flickering fire can be s6 (only from horrors and heralds though) but with 20 horrors and 2 heralds one casting presciecne, rest shooting that is 11d6 of shots re rolling to hit on 6's so FF can be done for anti air.

Also Slaanesh princes have a major disadvantage to tzeentch princes, re rolling 1's, the biggest thing that will usually kill a prince is weight of fire from small arms being only t5 forcing you to roll a few armour saves, being able to re roll half your failed saves is huge. Also the advantage of plus 3 LD is great against GK's and ld 10 is simply better then ld9 when casting powers. Also being str8 all the time for the cost of 10pts is also very important imo.

Also having to swap out a greater reward hurts the suriviability of the princes, what happens if you roll 4+ FNP then roll +1 wound it will not die, are you going to swap out FNP then roll +1 wound or vice versa, the greater rewards are there imo to get those two results or re roll invuls to make them more surivable.

You are never going to get S6 flickering fire from a prince. When comparing Slaanesh and Tzeentch princes this is not relevant.

Rerolling 1s on your 3+ save gives you a 77% chance to save against small arms fire. A normal 3+ gives you a 66% chance to save. We go from needing 3 wounds to cause a failed save to 4.5. That is a pretty significant increase, true. If we look at the 5++ save we go from needing 1.5 wounds to cause a failed save to 1.63 wounds, so it is pretty much worthless against anything but AP4 or weaker weapons. The weapons I see this being most useful against are Tesla Destructors, Missilesides, and Quad Guns. Against these weapons this is a pretty useful bonus. Bolter fire is going to do nothing with or without the reroll because of hard to hit. The real threat from Bolter fire is the grounding test, for which you will take your invulnerable save. If you expect a lot of Missilesides in your meta then this becomes a decent bonus, but I still don't think it is worth it.

The Ld bonus is only useful when casting psychic powers. Going from Ld 9 to Ld10 is solid. You have a 1/12 chance of that mattering for each of your psychic rolls so if you are casting all of your powers every turn this will probably save you one perils test per game.

S8 is useful, but I already run a LoC for instant-killing characters so I don't find this as essential as it could be. Useful for killing Wraiths and MCs.

I'm not sure if extra roll on the Greater Gifts table for Tzeentch is better than the extra psychic power each turn Slaanesh (since you will be spending on charge on Flickering Fire).

In my mind, all of these things just don't match up to how amazing Lash is. Most people are bringing fliers and the lash is one of the best anti-flyer weapons in the game. It is also very effective against the Wave Serpents that are becoming common after the Eldar update. If anti-flier becomes less necessary over time then I would consider going back to Tzeentch princes but at the moment I think Slaanesh is the way to.

The reroll 1s has saved my Tzeentch princes more times than I can count. When combined with FNP from Rewards or Psychic powers, it's just amazing. And as far as Lash goes, I still prefer Flickering Fire, and that's mostly due to the 24" range on it. Being able to dump all 3 warp charges into it and getting 18 shots at S5 and BS5 can be really good. I have no problem taking out flyers with it (except Stormravens) as getting rear armor shots isn't really that hard. With lash you're hoping to get Iron Arm, then hoping to get within 12". You're not always going to get Iron Arm, and if you only have it on one prince, that 12" range will kill you if your opponent is running a lot of flyers. I think the only time I'd really prefer Lash is when going against other MC-heavy lists, like Tyranids or Tau with Riptides. The last thing I want to shoot those with is FFoT. But even in those cases, if I can get Iron Arm on a Tzeentch Prince, I'll just use Psychic Shriek, and then try to get into combat and kill it in CC.

I had a game this weekend against a Triple Helldrake list, and all of his turkeys died on my Turn 2. He came on the board, did his Vector Strikes on my FMCs (caused no wounds due to FNP and rerolling 1s BTW). On my turn I just flew behind him, used Puppet Master on one of them to flame a squad of Marines from a Rhino I had popped on the previous turn, then Fateweaver took one out from the rear, and two Princes each took out another the same way.