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One of the most popular upgrades for Broadsides and riptides has been the early warning override which grants the suit the intercept rule. They also possess the smart missile system which does not need line of sight to be fired.

The intercept rule specifically says the weapons needs to be within range and line of sight. However smart missile systems do not require line of sight. So I wonder can a broadside or riptide shoot their smart missiles at a unit in range but outside of line of sight?

I would say say, your giving up your normal shooting to fire in their movement. As long as your in range, the LoS issue is resolved by the weapon.

Tides are MC so they get the two weapons and Multi-Tracker for the broadsides.

From a rule as written perspective we have no good way to continue. There is page 7 but that just breaks far more things then it fixes. If someone had to make an argument based around the conflict between these two rules it could use that as a base. Weapon profiles are advanced rules, this one is coming from a codex, so the ignore line of sight on the weapon trumps the requires line of sight in the base rule.

That creates issues though, if you apply the same argument to other things.

It will come down to is rules as intended, more then written, and that is pretty straight forward. The smart missile system always fires without requiring line of sight, so therefore it will fire in this situation without requiring line of sight. Logic might not always trump when it comes to these rules, but it is doubtful the writers intended for interceptor to ignore the special rules found on the weapon profiles.

Interceptor follows the rules for normal shooting except it doesn't occur during the shooting phase. Thus we can, and should, assume that all the rules that would apply to normal shooting will apply here.

I agree with the above posters. EWO gives the model intercept, which means that the SMS can shoot at it w/o requiring LoS. A fusion blaster couldnt (for example) because it would require LoS.

In order to be able to fire, you must have LOS

Nothing abot the weapon used alters this. A basilisk with Interceptor would still require LOS, as that is the requirement for a model to use Interceptor.

Once you have determined you have LOS, you can then use the weapon(s) you will fire with

Actually interceptor does not follow the normal shooting ohase rules. First of all MCs specifically say they can fire two weapons in the shooting phase, and interceptor applies directly to a weapon. We have already seen GWs intention is to seperate the shooting phase rules from shooting in other phases such as witch fire being in shooting phase and therefore not other phases.
All that said the normal rules for shooting require LOS and in range to fire any argument you can make to say you can't interceptor the smart missiles could actually be applied to normal shooting as well. Ie yes you can ignore line of sight but your unit must be able to see at least one model in the target unit to fire at all, then models out of sight could have wounds allocated to them from the smart missile systems (RAW this is a valid interpretation). So if you feel convinced that smart missile systems allow you to override the normal rules, why not the interceptor rules there isn't actually any basis for one and not the other

nosferatu1001 wrote:
In order to be able to fire, you must have LOS

Nothing abot the weapon used alters this. A basilisk with Interceptor would still require LOS, as that is the requirement for a model to use Interceptor.

Once you have determined you have LOS, you can then use the weapon(s) you will fire with

I disagree with NOS here, as interceptor clearly labels "weapons" needing LOS, in which case if they don't need LOS than they don't use LOS.

If it had said the model needed LOS to use interceptor I'd agree, however it doesn't.

It says it can fire at one unit ithin range and lOS. Does it state that the weapons rules are carried over to this interceptor rule?

Why would they not?

If they didn't, none of the weapons special rules could apply to the shot. Which would make shooting any weapon with interceptor impossible.

No, what I mean is - you are told the weapon has to be within range and have LOS in order to be used. Does "ignores LOS" get passed over, when that only applies when the weapon actually fires?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, what I mean is - you are told the weapon has to be within range and have LOS in order to be used. Does "ignores LOS" get passed over, when that only applies when the weapon actually fires?

Certainly.

Really, then using the lascannon during intercept you would not be allowed to use the skyfire rule. Absurd!

I personally believe that sms do not need los to shoot intercept. However, one could argue that the requirements for intercept (not the requirements to shoot) are that you need to be within range and los. Therefor if you are not in los you don't get a chance to intercept. Maybe the early warning override is a small sensor that needs los to activate and alert the suit. The sms is on a different system that can home into things out of los. Without the early warning override activating the sms doesn't know its supposed to shoot.

I'm no rules expert, but I interpret this to mean that Intercept needs line of sight and range, even if the weapon itself does not. That's how I would play it, though I'd be willing to rolloff if the opponent disagreed.

intercept allows shopoting in a diffierent phase the normal restrictions for shooting :range and LOS) apply.

so: if you have interceptor and wish to use it, delcare your weapon
- check range.. good? continue
- check LOS - good continue, not good - look for special rules
- if special rule allows for bypass then contine
-roll hit/damage/saves and apply any and all special rules, such as melta, AP1, gets hot, ignores cover, etc.

ignoring LOS is a weapon special rule like the ones i just mentioned. if you deny that, then you have to by extension deny all the others. so flamers provide cover saves, no double pen dice for melta, and so on. and special rules are there to 'break' or 'bend' the general rules. the general rule says you need LOS, but a special rule overrides and allows the shot without it. specfifc trumps general.

its like tau overwatch. normally you only fire one unit, but a special rule allows multiple units to fire instead. pretty simple if you ask me.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, what I mean is - you are told the weapon has to be within range and have LOS in order to be used. Does "ignores LOS" get passed over, when that only applies when the weapon actually fires?

Certainly.

Can you provide some contextual proof of this?

In order to fire Interceptor your weapon MUST have LOS and Range. Now when SMS fires *normally* it is except from the Shooting requirement to have LOS, however Interceptor is a *separate* requiement

I don't have access to the Tau Codex, so I'm not familiar with the rules, but do you need to expend a markerlight token to fire a smart missile indirectly?

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
I don't have access to the Tau Codex, so I'm not familiar with the rules, but do you need to expend a markerlight token to fire a smart missile indirectly?

You're thinking of Seeker Missiles.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
I don't have access to the Tau Codex, so I'm not familiar with the rules, but do you need to expend a markerlight token to fire a smart missile indirectly?

You're thinking of Seeker Missiles.

Iranna.

Aha! That'll be it. Cheers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, what I mean is - you are told the weapon has to be within range and have LOS in order to be used. Does "ignores LOS" get passed over, when that only applies when the weapon actually fires?

Certainly.

Can you provide some contextual proof of this?

In order to fire Interceptor your weapon MUST have LOS and Range. Now when SMS fires *normally* it is except from the Shooting requirement to have LOS, however Interceptor is a *separate* requiement

So it's not normal shooting?

Do we need special rules to wound in this special "magical" phase as well.
I don't see any how to wound in the intercept phase.

Agreeing with Nos, I would say that the general is rule is the SMS saying that it doesn't need LOS to its target to fire, with interceptor being specific enough to say, when intercepting you need LOS.

You have convinced me Nos,

The line of sight requirements can be read, very easy, as a limitation within the rule itself. Before any rule can be evoked, all limitations need to be met and accounted for. In this situation, with the lack of line of sight, you do not meet one of the requirements to evoke the interceptor rule and therefore can not do so.

I agree with Nos. Rather than looking at rules like this side by side, you need to take a hierarchical view. Model and Weapon special rules are often overridden by USR’s, some (most) of these are beneficial, in this case it is not.

Needing LOS for Interceptor overrides the weapon ability of not needing LOS. If we argue there is conflict and it shouldn’t need LOS, I’m calling I don’t need to half my attacks when SMASHing, since my codex says I get X attacks (as an example).

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
So it's not normal shooting?

Do we need special rules to wound in this special "magical" phase as well.
I don't see any how to wound in the intercept phase.

So I will take that as a "no", you do not have any rules to back up your assertion that he requirement to use Interceptor - that you have LOS - is overridden by the weapon not needing LOS, even though you only get to choose to fire that weapon AFTER you have fulfilled the requirements to use Interceptor.

General BRB rule: you need LOS.
Specific weapon rule from codex: you don't need LOS.

Specific > genereal; codex > BRB.

That's two counts. How is this even an argument?

Nos, by your strict reading of the rules i have to have LoS to to shoot a Smart missile system during my own shooting phase but if i can't draw los i can't even apply the weapons special ignore los rule.

maceria wrote:
General BRB rule: you need LOS.
Specific weapon rule from codex: you don't need LOS.

Specific > genereal; codex > BRB.

That's two counts. How is this even an argument?

Because you have a more specific rule: in order to use Interceptor you must have LOS

Findd the codex rule stating that the SMS ignores LOS for the purposes of the interceptor rule.

Wouldn't there be a problem with ignoring LOS in the first place?

If a weapon ignores LOS and Interceptor tells you you use LOS, does that mean the weapon cannot even use Interceptor at all since it ignores LOS for purposes of shooting?

Not really - it just says to use Interceptor you have to have LOS. Ignores LOS means it ignores, when firing, the requirement to have LOS