Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/03 23:48:01
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
|
Cowmonaut you are better man than me. This has never been an issue in our group and I play in an extremely aggressive 40k group where we take rules to the extreme.
No point in arguing it further it is and always has been clear.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/03 23:55:55
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Nilok wrote:jcress410 wrote:Except there is a restriction on which units can be targeted. Only units you watch come on the board are eligible for interceptor.
"
has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight.
"
says legal interceptor targets have to arrive from reserve within line of sight.
So, if something came on the board within line of sight, but moved behind some LOS obscuring terrain, at the end of the movement phase, the SMS doesnt have LOS but can still fire.
But if a model comes on from reserve, and the SMS can never see it, it can't.
You're saying "when I fire the weapon, I don't need LOS" and that's fine. But interceptor isn't about having LOS when you fire the weapon (at the end of the movement phase) it's about having LOS when the unit arrives (at the beginning).
That restriction isn't present in the intercepter rule.
The rule tells you that you can only fire at a unit within the weapon's range and LOS.
Since the SMS tells you that it ignores LOS you only use range.
A unit could arrive from reserves and be in LOS of a weapon, but could use some here unmade special rule to move after arriving and move out of LOS. They would be unable to be targeted by a normal weapon, since intercept only happens at the end of the movement phase.
You don't need to see them arrive, only that you can shoot them at the end of movement.
That would be a good way for the rule to work. It makes sense for the rule to work that way.
But the rule says "at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight"
It would make sense if it said something like "any one unit that has arrived from reserve and is within its range and line of sight"
but then, it'd be redundant with the normal rules for firing a weapon. If the unit wasn't required to be in LOS when it arrived from reserve, the rule could just read "any one unit that has arrived from reserve." The normal rules for firing a weapon would take care of the rest.
I don't think it's nearly as clear as some people on this thread suggest.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/04 04:24:51
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Huge Hierodule
|
Why can I fire the SMS during my shooting phase at a target not in LOS? After all, regular shooting attacks also require the target to be in LOS. What? The "homing" rule allows me to disregard LOS? Awesome.
Now describe why this same pattern of thought does NOT apply to identically worded requirements for firing an interceptor attack?
|
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/04 04:52:18
Subject: Re:Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
|
jcress actually brings up a very good point. Per the interceptor rule the unit must arrive within range and line of sight of the weapon. It does not say that it has to be in LoS to fire at it. You get the chance to fire at it if and only if it enters play from reserve within range and LoS. If it then is not in LoS sight at the end of the movement phase then you would need a weapon that can be fired without LoS, such as the smart missile system.
|
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/04 05:28:33
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
tetrisphreak wrote:Why can I fire the SMS during my shooting phase at a target not in LOS? After all, regular shooting attacks also require the target to be in LOS. What? The "homing" rule allows me to disregard LOS? Awesome.
Now describe why this same pattern of thought does NOT apply to identically worded requirements for firing an interceptor attack?
The requirements aren't identically worded.
The way interceptor is written, it places a condition on how the target arrives from reserves, interceptor allows you to fire at a unit which has arrived from reserve within range and Los
Just to be clear, I think it would make sense for the SMS to be able to fire, maybe that's the way it was supposed to work. I just don't think that's how the rule is written.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/04 05:57:24
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
Pacific NW
|
jcress410 wrote:Except there is a restriction on which units can be targeted.
The very same restriction exists for selecting a target in the Shooting Phase. The very same wording is even used. In order for the Homing rule to function your interpretation is wrong.
jcress410 wrote:But interceptor isn't about having LOS when you fire the weapon (at the end of the movement phase) it's about having LOS when the unit arrives (at the beginning).
You are twisting words. I highly recommend you carefully read the rule. I've put the text in my posts twice now along with the page number it can be found on.
Interceptor is a USR for a weapon, not a unit or model. It states that any weapon with the rule can fire on a target, and gives you restrictions on the target criteria: namely it must be 1) in the range of said weapon, 2) in LOS and 3) a unit that just entered from Reserve.
Homing is another special rule for a weapon. It states that any weapon with the rule can fire on a target that is not in LOS.
LOS is always drawn from the model firing the weapon, excepting on Vehicles where it is drawn from the weapon mount. This is the only reason the word "unit" shows up in the rules for Homing. If you draw line of sight, you draw it from the model holding the weapon you are firing. So with Interceptor, when you check line of sight you follow the rules and draw line of sight from the model. Not the weapon. I only state this to make things more clear.
Gravmyr wrote:Per the interceptor rule the unit must arrive within range and line of sight of the weapon. It does not say that it has to be in LoS to fire at it. You get the chance to fire at it if and only if it enters play from reserve within range and LoS.
Interceptor is not worded that way and does not resolve that way. Interceptor does nothing until the end of the enemy Movement Phase. You don't check for a target until Interceptor is invoked, and that happens at the end of the Phase. Not when the unit from Reserve enters play.
When Interceptor is invoked, you pick your target and if it meets the criteria the weapon is fired. Just like in the normal Shooting Phase, we just have an additional criteria to meet. Homing simply lifts one of the restrictions.
thejughead wrote:Cowmonaut you are better man than me. This has never been an issue in our group and I play in an extremely aggressive 40k group where we take rules to the extreme.
Thanks, I guess?  Not trying to show who has the bigger e-peen here lol, just want to make sure rules are clearly understood by all. Usually myself.
Anyways, the crux of my problem with the "no you can't benefit from Homing and Interceptor simultaneously" crowd is that in depends on stuff like nosferatu1001's argument which don't make sense: nosferatu1001 wrote:In order to fire Interceptor your weapon MUST have LOS and Range. Now when SMS fires *normally* it is except from the Shooting requirement to have LOS, however Interceptor is a *separate* requiement
It disagrees with the actual text of the Interceptor rule and ignores the fact that how you fire at a unit in the Shooting Phase is written the same way as Intercept, minus the bit about entering from Reserve of course.
Tis why I put the rules side by side in my first post. Its easier to see that they are both written the same when you can just glance back and forth at them.
In summary... Interceptor says that a weapon can fire at a unit that came in from reserve, is in range of said weapon, and is in line of sight. Homing says that a weapon can fire at units out of line of sight. Both rules say you are firing the weapon (contrary to what some people said earlier) and Homing says nothing about only working in the Shooting Phase. So it works with Interceptor and Supporting Fire (Overwatch).
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/04 06:26:05
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Focused Fire Warrior
|
Everyone here that is still arguing this rule... Is hurting my brain
Of course you can fire the weapon at a unit out of LOS
Its been proven 20x over...
some of the people still arguing haven't read the whole thread...
|
Necrons
Tau |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/04 06:30:34
Subject: Re:Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
|
The exact wording of Interceptor has been posted multiple times. What is the first line? "At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight."
No one disagrees that it happens at end of the movement phase. "At the end of the enemy Movement phase,.."
No one disagrees that the weapon has to have Interceptor "a weapon with the Interceptor special rule..."
This is where the disagreement comes in "can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight." It doesn't say that it can be any unit that has come in from reserve. It says that it must be a unit that "has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight." Which is different from saying that it can be fired at a unit that "has arrived from reserve and is within its range and line of sight." If the last were true then the weapons other rules would not matter. The model would have to be in LoS in order to be targeted it does not say that. It allows you to target a unit that enters play within the defined area, determined by range and LoS, even if it then leaves that area. For instance a tank moving onto the board from the table edge and in a line so that it can take shelter behind a building which then blocks LoS. Since the Smart Missile System does not need LoS it could then be fired at the tank even though it is not in LoS.
The interceptor rule is basically a radar system that gives you a heads up so when a unit enters play you have the chance to see it and target it. If something enters play and you can't see it the radar gave you the warning but you did not see what or where and therefor would not know where to target. Automatically Appended Next Post: It could even be written "can be fired at any one unit, that has arrived from reserve, within its range and line of sight." Which would then say that the model must be range and LoS but it does not. The lack of punctuation means that the ending of the sentence is modifying what came before it, in this case the arrived from reserve part.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 06:38:16
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/04 08:39:38
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
If my opponent wants to fire the SMS at a unit out of sight, I'll allow it.
Last I checked, GW never gave permission to allocate wounds to models out of sight. Therefore the shots are fired, cannot wound, and cannot be fired in my opponents shooting phase at something in LOS.
|
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/05 12:44:08
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Human Auxiliary to the Empire
Harrisburg, PA
|
Happyjew wrote:If my opponent wants to fire the SMS at a unit out of sight, I'll allow it.
Last I checked, GW never gave permission to allocate wounds to models out of sight. Therefore the shots are fired, cannot wound, and cannot be fired in my opponents shooting phase at something in LOS.
But then that makes weapons with the 'homing' special rule (including Seeker Missiles being launched at targets out of LOS but painted with markerlights) and barrage weapons completely and utterly useless, not to mention the special rule itself.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/05 14:40:59
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
cowmonaut wrote:
(snip, see above for the entire post, which is well thought out and detailed)
In summary... Interceptor says that a weapon can fire at a unit that came in from reserve, is in range of said weapon, and is in line of sight. Homing says that a weapon can fire at units out of line of sight. Both rules say you are firing the weapon (contrary to what some people said earlier) and Homing says nothing about only working in the Shooting Phase. So it works with Interceptor and Supporting Fire (Overwatch).
I'm quoting the summary only to point out that if the rule had been written the way you summarize it
something to the effect of " from reserve, in range, and in line of sight "
it would mean what you are saying it does.
If there were extra punctuation, maybe a comma or a semicolon, maybe the word "and", the interceptor rule may be describing multiple requirements, i.e.
1. arrive from resrve
2. be in range
3. have LOS
But, instead, (without any punctuation, or the word "and")
" has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight"
is describing how the unit arrived from reserve, not where it is at the end of the movement phase.
Only one requirement,
1. arrive from reserve within LOS and range
That's all I'm saying.
So, I think you're right, that homing gets rid of the requirement that the target be in LOS when you fire the weapon. But it does not remove the requirement that the unit arrive from reserve within LOS.
I appreciate that a lot of people aren't reading the rule this way, and that's fine, but the YMDC practice of posting "this is super clear, everyone who disagrees is stupid" just isn't constructive. I'm trying to show that a plain text reading of the rule runs counter to the "common sense" or "most popular" way of playing it. At the very least, the rule is ambiguous enough to require resolution by FAQ.
I think whether you can allocate wounds to a model out of LOS when you fire using Homing is off topic.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/05 15:43:05
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
xiahoufig wrote: Happyjew wrote:If my opponent wants to fire the SMS at a unit out of sight, I'll allow it.
Last I checked, GW never gave permission to allocate wounds to models out of sight. Therefore the shots are fired, cannot wound, and cannot be fired in my opponents shooting phase at something in LOS.
But then that makes weapons with the 'homing' special rule (including Seeker Missiles being launched at targets out of LOS but painted with markerlights) and barrage weapons completely and utterly useless, not to mention the special rule itself.
You use the hole to allocate wound for barrage. In all honesty, I'm very casual and would allow it normally.
|
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/05 19:18:35
Subject: Early warning override and smart missile systems
|
 |
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
Pacific NW
|
jcress410 wrote:So, I think you're right, that homing gets rid of the requirement that the target be in LOS when you fire the weapon. But it does not remove the requirement that the unit arrive from reserve within LOS.
Thank you for the clarification jcress410. I was not fully comprehending the Interceptor USR. I think you said all that needs to be said very succinctly in the quote.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/05 19:18:59
|
|
 |
 |
|