Anyone else tired of the Eldar always losing?

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**PredaKhaine**

Iracundus wrote:
In that particular book, Jain Zar wiped all the Night Lords in power armor virtually single handedly and demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way. That ability was a nice addition in the same way that the WD article on Maugan Ra showed he had the mystic ability to root himself immovably to the ground at will. Similarly, the Apocalypse formation Shadow Sect of Karandras showed Karandras with the ability to lead squads of Scorpions from one shadowed place to another shadowed place without passing through the intervening space. These more esoteric mystic abilities help the image of the Phoenix Lords as supernatural immortal martial artists.

Yes I know, but it still makes me laugh

Mercution stabbed her in the leg, Talos suicide bombed her, then the dread who's name I forget stepped on her. As its the night lords, I liked the deliberately direspectful way of finishing Jain Zar off. It fit their style IMO.

Have you got any fluff for Fuegan, Asurmen or Baharroth doing similar feats?

**Iracundus**

Baharroth's feat is given in the Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

The book at least got the incredible speed of Phoenix Lords right with one of the Night Lords moving faster than he had ever moved before in his life in an attempt to dodge a fatal strike from the Silent Death, and it still wasn't enough. At Phoenix Lord Initiative 7, really they shouldn't even know what hit them.

**PredaKhaine**

Iracundus wrote:
Baharroth's feat is given in the Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

That just doesn't seem as cool as becoming the immovable object or deflecting explosives with a sword.

Is that in the new apoc book or is that an old one?

**Farseer Faenyin**

I find that the 'point of view' of most of the writing for the Eldar is from that of the Imperial perspective. Not saying propoganda, but it is doubtful the Imperials see the true nature of the Eldar objective.

The 'dead in masses' Eldar could have been figments created by Farseers while the real Eldar strikeforce got their person/object and left.

But overall, the writers of some Codexes really do throw serious fanboi writing into play and show their complete lack of writing ability when they do things like make Eldar fight a protracted linear battle....so the only possible assumption to make is that it is from the Imperial perspective and heavily flawed.

**Iracundus**

PredaKhaine wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Baharroth's feat is given in the Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

That just doesn't seem as cool as becoming the immovable object or deflecting explosives with a sword.

Is that in the new apoc book or is that an old one?

Apocalypse Reload p. 32, Baharroth's Tempest

It only seems less impressive because it is less of a classic martial arts thing. Think about what it involves: shooting up in essentially a jet pack and be fast and accurate enough to put yourself in front of an aircraft's flight path and drop your grenades at the exact moment you cross its projected path such that the aircraft will fly into them but you are not hit by the aircraft.

**PredaKhaine**

It sounds better when you put it like that

Thanks - I never bought reload so I didn't know about that one.

**Hangover101**

Hmm, everybody, (Including GW it seems) has forgotten about the book Farseer by William King where the Rogue trader Janus Darke together with a Farseer of Ulthwe track down a sword forged with the express purpose of ending Slaneesh...
I loved that book

Also, for those who think that Avatar's of Khaine always loose, try reading Shadow Point by Gorden Rennie...

**Kain**

Hangover101 wrote:
Hmm, everybody, (Including GW it seems) has forgotten about the book Farseer by William King where the Rogue trader Janus Darke together with a Farseer of Ulthwe track down a sword forged with the express purpose of ending Slaneesh...
I loved that book

Also, for those who think that Avatar's of Khaine always loose, try reading Shadow Point by Gorden Rennie...

I believe that they're being hyperbolic for effect when they say "always" but the Eldar lose an inordinate number of times ever since the Imperial Guard stopped being the standard whipping boys of the fluff.

**Zweischneid**

Kain wrote:

I believe that they're being hyperbolic for effect when they say "always" but the Eldar lose an inordinate number of times ever since the Imperial Guard stopped being the standard whipping boys of the fluff.

Nah. They don't. Tyranids and Chaos lose and inordinate number of times. Space Marines and, especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

Eldar are about as close to the ideal balance of victories/defeats/pyrrhic victories as it'll ever get. They are fine.

**Kain**

Zweischneid wrote:
Kain wrote:

I believe that they're being hyperbolic for effect when they say "always" but the Eldar lose an inordinate number of times ever since the Imperial Guard stopped being the standard whipping boys of the fluff.

Nah. They don't. Tyranids and Chaos lose and inordinate number of times. Space Marines and, especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

Eldar are about as close to the ideal balance of victories/defeats/pyrrhic victories as it'll ever get. They are fine.

The fact that the Eldar are a dying race is not helped by the fact that Khaela Mensha Khaine gets punked every time he shows up and the Eldar can't ever fight without losing massive numbers of Elves.

Other factions can get easy victories, even factions who don't care about losing large numbers of corpses, like Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. But the Eldar? Can't win without losing a big heap of the craftworld's population.

**Mellow**

They should make the Eldar into more of a similar race such as the Vorlons or Minbari from Babylon 5. Basically where they are advanced and very superior, but generally keep to themselves. In fact I always imagined the Minbari ship design and stealth tech to be very similar to How Eldar should be!

**Kain**

Mellow wrote:
They should make the Eldar into more of a similar race such as the Vorlons or Minbari from Babylon 5. Basically where they are advanced and very superior, but generally keep to themselves. In fact I always imagined the Minbari ship design and stealth tech to be very similar to How Eldar should be!

Except Necrontyr technology is objectively superior to Eldar technology in most areas, especially concerning war..

**Bobthehero**

Zweischneid wrote:

especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

? See all the FW books, I think Vraks is the only one where the Imperium does not get slaughtered and its a phyrric victory, some of the entries in the IG codex are pretty minor victories, like the Death Korps removing a city from existence.

**Strayan**

I think a lot of people here are missing the point of Eldar.. they're old enough to know they can loose many battles... as long as they win the war... and 40K is one big war...
Sacrificing noble Eldar siblings is not just regrettable and lamentable but also grating on the nerves of leaders... they all knew exactly what they were signing up for when they donned they're armour, and few have been steered wrong by the farseers (Iyanden vs 'Nids being a notable exception).
Although it chafes to loose 'breeders' its more important to take out the single leader/ objective that will spell certain doom for the entire craftworld not just the warriors...

**Zweischneid**

Kain wrote:

Other factions can get easy victories, even factions who don't care about losing large numbers of corpses, like Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. But the Eldar? Can't win without losing a big heap of the craftworld's population.

There are no easy victories in 40K.

Every single battle ever fought in 40K is always closely-fought, bloody and bought at dire costs, decided only in the last minute by some improbably heroics and/or event. Comes with the territory.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobthehero wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:

especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

? See all the FW books, I think Vraks is the only one where the Imperium does not get slaughtered and its a phyrric victory, some of the entries in the IG codex are pretty minor victories, like the Death Korps removing a city from existence.

How about when Vostroyan Firstborn Guardsman starve (!) Tyranids to Death to save a planet. Ya know, the "we-consume-ever-last-shred-of-biological-matter-on-a-planets-race" vs. Vostroyan's Iron Rations? Should be clear who wins. Or what about random Guardsman special characters snapping the necks of -Truck-Sized-Tyranid big-beasts with their bare hands? Etc.. .

**Kain**

Zweischneid wrote:
Kain wrote:

Other factions can get easy victories, even factions who don't care about losing large numbers of corpses, like Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and Chaos. But the Eldar? Can't win without losing a big heap of the craftworld's population.

There are no easy victories in 40K.

Every single battle ever fought in 40K is always closely-fought, bloody and bought at dire costs, decided only in the last minute by some improbably heroics and/or event. Comes with the territory.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobthehero wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:

especially, the Guard (recently) win an inordinate number of times.

? See all the FW books, I think Vraks is the only one where the Imperium does not get slaughtered and its a phyrric victory, some of the entries in the IG codex are pretty minor victories, like the Death Korps removing a city from existence.

How about when Vostroyan Firstborn Guardsman starve (!) Tyranids to Death to save a planet. Ya know, the "we-consume-ever-last-shred-of-biological-matter-on-a-planets-race" vs. Vostroyan's Iron Rations? Should be clear who wins. Or what about random Guardsman special characters snapping the necks of -Truck-Sized-Tyranid big-beasts with their bare hands? Etc.. .

Nonsense, the Death Shadows at Sybari were wiped out by Hive Fleet Behemoth so fast that the Chaos Space Marines only got a foot note.

Forgefane; an ancient Iron Warriors fortress world with at least a thousand Chaos Space Marines, millions of cultists and daemon engines and traitor guard, and defenses and fleets that had seen off ten thousand years of attack; falls and crumbles within a week of assault from Leviathan.

The bloody hundred assault by the Necrons of the Maynarch dynasty: Dozens of worlds fell to the Necrons in mere days despite the Imperials having an overwhelming numerical advantage. The Imperials were defeated so quickly that they couldn't even tell other worlds of the Orpheus sector what exactly was kicking their asses until the Necrons stopped at the capital world and purposely allowed the Imperium a breather to gather it's forces for honorable combat.

Battle of Scalex VI: The Orks rather quickly overwhelm the Imperium until the AdMech drags out a warlord titan, then Wazdakka crashes through the windows and kills the Titan's crew, ensuring rapid imperial defeat.

Battle of Golgotha: Orks rapidly overwhelm a crucial world within a matter of weeks, outwitting the imperial defenders and claiming victory. Yarrick tries to intervene, Yarrick promptly gets stomped and only released because Gazghkull thinks he's fun.

Shall I go on?

**PredaKhaine**

Kain wrote:
Shall I go on?

Yes - I'm finding these interesting

**Zweischneid**

Kain wrote:

How about when Vostroyan Firstborn Guardsman starve (!) Tyranids to Death to save a planet. Ya know, the "we-consume-ever-last-shred-of-biological-matter-on-a-planets-race" vs. Vostroyan's Iron Rations? Should be clear who wins. Or what about random Guardsman special characters snapping the necks of -Truck-Sized-Tyranid big-beasts with their bare hands? Etc.. .
Nonsense, the Death Shadows at Sybari were wiped out by Hive Fleet Behemoth so fast that the Chaos Space Marines only got a foot note.

Forgefane; an ancient Iron Warriors fortress world with at least a thousand Chaos Space Marines, millions of cultists and daemon engines and traitor guard, and defenses and fleets that had seen off ten thousand years of attack; falls and crumbles within a week of assault from Leviathan.

The bloody hundred assault by the Necrons of the Maynarch dynasty: Dozens of worlds fell to the Necrons in mere days despite the Imperials having an overwhelming numerical advantage. The Imperials were defeated so quickly that they couldn't even tell other worlds of the Orpheus sector what exactly was kicking their asses until the Necrons stopped at the capital world and purposely allowed the Imperium a breather to gather it's forces for honorable combat.

Battle of Scalex VI: The Orks rather quickly overwhelm the Imperium until the AdMech drags out a warlord titan, then Wazdakka crashes through the windows and kills the Titan's crew, ensuring rapid imperial defeat.

Battle of Golgotha: Orks rapidly overwhelm a crucial world within a matter of weeks, outwitting the imperial defenders and claiming victory. Yarrick tries to intervene, Yarrick promptly gets stomped and only released because Gazghkull thinks he's fun.

Shall I go on?

If you wanna count these gakky "one-liner-battles", you are right. Eldar have plenty of them too. Infact, they probably have the most extreme.

Eldar Codex p. 22 wrote:
The Perfect War

Under the sludge planet of Yurk, the armies of the Ork Warlord Killfist are engaged and killed without loss by Craftworld Iyanden's grav-tank skimmers. The clockwork precision of the warhost's attack prevents the Yurkoid Waaagh! altogether and saves a virgin Eldar colony from destruction in the process.

Also, you know, Maugan Ra stands along against the Swarm, and triumphs

**GhostKnight31**

Generally Eldar are a bunch of arrogant tossers the whole superiority when they fethed up the entire galaxy through their stupidity never gets old, I actually love hearing stories when the pointy eared gits get annihilated, the whole undying phoenix lords is a bit dumb. Don't forget Eldrad after all through his actions he made it so Ghazghkull could gain so much power plus he seems to have prevented every major disaster for the eldar apart from the disasters that actually mattered like the necrons returning, nids eating everything, clagar fisting an avatar plus every other misfortune the pointy one suffered which could of been prevented as well as killing Fulgrim by their superior all knowing powers.

Oh yeah Fuegan also scoured a swath of daemon lords with his firepike and killed dozens with his axe whilst fighting alongside eldrad
PG 59 6th eldar codex

**Mellow**

You would think that a race that has been star faring for MILLIONS of years would be able to wipe the floor with everyone else who has only been around for THOUSANDS of years. (except the Necrons naturally)

The Eldar are just dumb/rubbish.

**Daba**

Iracundus wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Baharroth's feat is given in the Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

That just doesn't seem as cool as becoming the immovable object or deflecting explosives with a sword.

Is that in the new apoc book or is that an old one?

Apocalypse Reload p. 32, Baharroth's Tempest

It only seems less impressive because it is less of a classic martial arts thing. Think about what it involves: shooting up in essentially a jet pack and be fast and accurate enough to put yourself in front of an aircraft's flight path and drop your grenades at the exact moment you cross its projected path such that the aircraft will fly into them but you are not hit by the aircraft.

Basically he's doing this:

**purplefood**

He's doing better than that.
He's jetpacking through the air fast enough to make himself a difficult target whilst at the same time throwing grenades at jets that move incredibly fast.
That's like hitting a supersonic bullet with a smaller pebble while flying through the air.

**TiamatRoar**

Yea, try hitting a flying bird with a rock and then imagine that bird flying 100 times as fast.

(note: Don't actually do this. Poor birds)

**Kain**

Mellow wrote:
You would think that a race that has been star faring for MILLIONS of years would be able to wipe the floor with everyone else who has only been around for THOUSANDS of years. (except the Necrons naturally)

The Eldar are just dumb/rubbish.

The Orks are also millions of years old, having been created along with the Eldar to fight the Necrons. The Tyranids are billions of years old as per their codex and have already won at least twelve times in other galaxies.

**Zweischneid**

Mellow wrote:
You would think that a race that has been star faring for MILLIONS of years would be able to wipe the floor with everyone else who has only been around for THOUSANDS of years. (except the Necrons naturally)

The Eldar are just dumb/rubbish.

Yup. Cause older civilizations > younger civilizations. The same reasons our world is ruled by Greeks and Egyptians, who'll easily clobber all those naughty young upstarts who've barely been around for just a few hundred years at a moment's notice.

**Melissia**

There are older civilizations than Greeks and Egyptians-- most of whom Mellow has never even heard of

**Kain**

Melissia wrote:
There are older civilizations than Greeks and Egyptians

Well, for the Egyptians I'm not sure if you could find anyone but the Sumerians.

**Melissia**

There's plenty that few outside of historians know about. For example, you realize that humans reached the southern tip of South America at least seven thousand years before ancient Egypt coalesced in to a civilization?

**Mahtamori**

The real problem here is this:

Every faction hands a pamphlet to you, it's player.
This pamphlet explains how the war is going to end for the faction. It explains how the faction is going to get there. And it gives the stories of how this has been done.

The Tyranid faction states "in the end, your faction will eat everything" and then states that "we will get there because even though we suffer enormous losses, they are insignificant to our advance" and then it gives fluff which shows them eating planets inspite of heroic last stands impossible rescues, and so on.

The Space Marine faction(s) states "we will defend humanity to the bitter end" and then states "we defend humanity through our superior skill and honour and we will fight our inner demons" and then gives stories of heroic last stands and where the inner demons cause problems.

The Eldar faction states "we are doomed and destined to die" and then states "through manipulation of our enemies and a discipline unimaginable we can open doors that are impossibly locked to avoid our destiny" and then proceeds to tell stories of how the Eldar fail at manipulating events, succumb to avarice and greed, make uninformed decisions, and commit to battles where the gain clearly isn't worth the price regardless of the outcome of the battle.

Sadly, the fluff writers seem to feel a need to humanize the bad guys or something. With Eldar you need to dehumanize them to get the feel right.

**Kain**

Melissia wrote:
There's plenty that few outside of historians know about. For example, you realize that humans reached the southern tip of South America at least seven thousand years before ancient Egypt coalesced in to a civilization?

Well, could they write? Because otherwise Sumer is probably going to remain the "first" civilization in most textbooks.