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Rented Tritium wrote:I think that as an actual person he probably is. Most presidents have excellent social skills. If you met him at a party, you would find him friendly, polite and probably charming.

Probably, but my issue isn't with whether he is actually humble or not, but that you probably won't get most to agree to 'humble' as being a word they would use to describe him. The idea that it is something we all can agree on is what I took issue with.

Frazzled wrote:Oh I think he's humble for a Texan.

"Miss me yet?"
-Miss your dad anyway.

His dad was a pretty cool guy that I think history is going to be far kinder to then it will be to Jr.

 sebster wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Ya so? He's a citizen of the United States, why does he get to avoid the backscatter machine and friendly TSA groping? Are you saying that he should get preferential treatment just because he's the President? HOGWASH AND FLIM FLAM BOY!

If Obama got randomly selected for a pat down, do you think he'd claim it was racial profiling?

That'd be good for a larf

 Ahtman wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:I think that as an actual person he probably is. Most presidents have excellent social skills. If you met him at a party, you would find him friendly, polite and probably charming.

Probably, but my issue isn't with whether he is actually humble or not, but that you probably won't get most to agree to 'humble' as being a word they would use to describe him. The idea that it is something we all can agree on is what I took issue with.

Okay... that's your opinion brah.

In the meantime, Bush is in Africa as well...
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/07/george-w-bush-in-africa.php

If that's not humble/classy... then, I can't help you.

 whembly wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:I think that as an actual person he probably is. Most presidents have excellent social skills. If you met him at a party, you would find him friendly, polite and probably charming.

Probably, but my issue isn't with whether he is actually humble or not, but that you probably won't get most to agree to 'humble' as being a word they would use to describe him. The idea that it is something we all can agree on is what I took issue with.

Okay... that's your opinion brah.

Not really, we already have demonstrable proof that not everyone would describe him that way, so it pretty much negates the idea that everyone would.

 Ahtman wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:I think that as an actual person he probably is. Most presidents have excellent social skills. If you met him at a party, you would find him friendly, polite and probably charming.

Probably, but my issue isn't with whether he is actually humble or not, but that you probably won't get most to agree to 'humble' as being a word they would use to describe him. The idea that it is something we all can agree on is what I took issue with.

Okay... that's your opinion brah.

Not really, we already have demonstrable proof that not everyone would describe him that way, so it pretty much negates the idea that everyone would.

I know.. but we all have our opinions. that's all I was saying.

 Seaward wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Except that the majority of the cost is military related....so by your argument, it's going back into our economy.... You know, I say that and I have to think about all of the pay that's going to be wasted by the involved military personnel on their next shore leave so I take back the part about it helping our economy.

"Holy gak I'm looking forward to liberty in Africa," said no US sailor ever.

Touché but you realize that this is a relatively short trip and the boats go to other, more interesting ports of call, right?

Well, I don't know if you could get universal agreement Mr. Bush was a humble or classy Texas dude. I will say that his nearly unwavering refusal to comment on the current President struck me as classy, anyway. Yes, I know you're going to say it's just pragmatism as he has ever been less popular than Mr. Obama, and hell, it might be just in contrast with Mr. Cheney running a nonstop campaign of being the worst human being in the country, but on the whole my respect for him definitely went up a few notches when his only answer to questions asked about Mr. Obama's policies were "the President deserves my silence".

YMMV

 Ouze wrote:
Well, I don't know if you could get universal agreement Mr. Bush was a humble or classy Texas dude. I will say that his nearly unwavering refusal to comment on the current President struck me as classy, anyway. Yes, I know you're going to say it's just pragmatism as he has ever been less popular than Mr. Obama, and hell, it might be just in contrast with Mr. Cheney running a nonstop campaign of being the worst human being in the country, but on the whole my respect for him definitely went up a few notches when his only answer to questions asked about Mr. Obama's policies were "the President deserves my silence".

YMMV

Exactly...

Back to O's Africa trip... I hope he's flying in style for that kind of jack.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, I don't know if you could get universal agreement Mr. Bush was a humble or classy Texas dude.

Which is all I was arguing.

 Ouze wrote:
I will say that his nearly unwavering refusal to comment on the current President struck me as classy, anyway. Yes, I know you're going to say it's just pragmatism as he has ever been less popular than Mr. Obama, and hell, it might be just in contrast with Mr. Cheney running a nonstop campaign of being the worst human being in the country, but on the whole my respect for him definitely went up a few notches when his only answer to questions asked about Mr. Obama's policies were "the President deserves my silence".

I never argued that I felt that, just that it could be argued, as it has been. It could also be argued that it was general burnout from being in the public eye and in politics for so long that he just wanted to avoid it altogether. I never said 'these are my feelings'. I don't think of Bush as some horribly evil man, and imagine history won't vilify him quite as much as many assume, though it will also not be quite as kind as others hope either. Cheney will probably be remembered as our Putin though.

 Jihadin wrote:
1. When did Secret Service become a US military branch? I can see why the Coast Guard fall under DHS. Granted a few do go to Afghanistan...RC South...they have a huge lake down there

The Secret Service came under the authority of Homeland Security in 2003, though that does not make it military.

 whembly wrote:

That man get criticised up and down the political sphere... and he doesn't defend himself.

Which President of the United States of America defended his Presidency after he ceased to be President, aside from Nixon?

My eyes glazed over and this was disregarded as being part of the "6 billion dollar a day trip to India" rubbish pile. Such is the problem with the polarized media; even if there is a story now, I assume it's just campaigning.

The Ex-Presidents seem pretty consistant in this.

They might have all been at each others throat during the campaigns, but it seems like the "been there, done that, know how crappy the job really is" club sticks together for the most part.

 agnosto wrote:
Touché but you realize that this is a relatively short trip and the boats go to other, more interesting ports of call, right?

I have a biiiiiiiiiiit of experience with the Navy, yeah.

It depends entirely on where they got pulled from.

if you honestly think bringing his mother in law along "raised" the price of this trip ANYTHING, please get help, you need it


when the President travels it ain't cheap, and he also had plans on meeting with Mandala, but he took a turn for the worse.

how much of that $100 million is going to aid for Africa?

 DIDM wrote:
if you honestly think bringing his mother in law along "raised" the price of this trip ANYTHING, please get help, you need it


when the President travels it ain't cheap, and he also had plans on meeting with Mandala, but he took a turn for the worse.

how much of that $100 million is going to aid for Africa?

Extra vehicles, extra security personnel, extra rooms. Yeah, that extra DV added to the price tag.

And the 100m is for the trip. 6.5M for AF One alone. Not the numerous (can't share actual number) of C-17's, and smaller aircraft that were involved. Hundreds of personnel who come along need places to sleep, food, transportation, gas, etc... moving the Pres is not cheap, not at all.

 dogma wrote:
Which President of the United States of America defended his Presidency after he ceased to be President, aside from Nixon?

Clinton defended some elements of his presidency; notably when it was attempted to pin Osama Bin Laden on him. That's the first one that leapt to mind. Do you mean something more encompassing than that?

 DIDM wrote:
if you honestly think bringing his mother in law along "raised" the price of this trip ANYTHING, please get help, you need it

While I am neutral on the idea of Obama going over to Africa, I find it hard to believe that his mother in law doesn't need to eat, sleep, bath, or shop for anything while in a foreign country.

how much of that $100 million is going to aid for Africa?

How much of it could be going to help us, the Americans who are in debt ourselves?

 Slarg232 wrote:
While I am neutral on the idea of Obama going over to Africa, I find it hard to believe that his mother in law doesn't need to eat, sleep, bath, or shop for anything while in a foreign country.

No single person could possibly eat so much food and sleep in so many beds that they could make a material difference to a $100 million budget.

Everybody seems to be missing the point about this, and the point is this: the trip was a disaster!

During his token stops, he failed to visit more populous, rapidly growing countries such as Nigeria.

Despite the presence of the US military in at least 6 countries, African countries are looking to China for their weapons and ammo.

On the non-military side, African countries are still looking to China, and where was Obama's strategy to combat this? We don't know!

Despite his faults, GW Bush invested more in Africa than Obama has to date.

Ok, so I got this info from the news but If Obama had built bridges and secured billion-dollar contracts for America firms, then 100 million would have been loose change. That's the scandal here - the missed opportunity, not the cost of flying his mother in law to Africa.

That was the reason for his trip though, to try to rebuild the bridges between America and African nations that have been undermined by Chinese influences. We don't really know if it's been a failure or may lead to new contracts and a revitalizing of the eroded relationship.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
That was the reason for his trip though, to try to rebuild the bridges between America and African nations that have been undermined by Chinese influences. We don't really know if it's been a failure or may lead to new contracts and a revitalizing of the eroded relationship.

With all due respect, we do know! It has been a failure!

Obama seemed to spend most of the trip hanging around Robben island and talking to former ANC members. Fair enough, Mandela is a big influence on Obama, and he would want to pay his respects, but in terms of geo-political, socio-economic objectives, it was a failure.

Chinese influence is steadily increasing in Africa for the sole reason that they don't care about human rights or democracy, they just want raw materials. When you consider that a lot of African countries are corrupt dictatorships, this works out fine for them. The Chinese throw money at them, build an airport and get whatever they need in return.

Western aid always comes with strings attached, a concept that is not appealing for many African countries. Now I'm sure there are lots of smart people in Washington who can come up with a strategy to boost American appeal, but none has been coming so far. Very short sighted from Washington.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

During his token stops, he failed to visit more populous, rapidly growing countries such as Nigeria. .

That's hard to arrange though.

Their finance minister is incredibly busy judging by the number of emails he sends out on a daily basis.

 reds8n wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

During his token stops, he failed to visit more populous, rapidly growing countries such as Nigeria. .

That's hard to arrange though.

Their finance minister is incredibly busy judging by the number of emails he sends out on a daily basis.

I must be the luckiest person on this planet - I've won the Nigerian lottery 17 times!

How many times have you won it?

Back OT, I was just watching an Al-Jazeera documentary. Looks like the Chinese have finished building another airport in Africa.

 Ouze wrote:

Clinton defended some elements of his presidency; notably when it was attempted to pin Osama Bin Laden on him. That's the first one that leapt to mind. Do you mean something more encompassing than that?

I should have included the phrase "the whole of" prior to the phrase "his Presidency", fair point.

I do mean something more encompassing (the Nixon Interviews), as many Presidents have defended individual decisions they made in office after they have left office; including the President who most recently left office.

 sebster wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
While I am neutral on the idea of Obama going over to Africa, I find it hard to believe that his mother in law doesn't need to eat, sleep, bath, or shop for anything while in a foreign country.

No single person could possibly eat so much food and sleep in so many beds that they could make a material difference to a $100 million budget.

A material difference, no. But a difference none the less.

Being a little facetious here

 sebster wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
While I am neutral on the idea of Obama going over to Africa, I find it hard to believe that his mother in law doesn't need to eat, sleep, bath, or shop for anything while in a foreign country.

No single person could possibly eat so much food and sleep in so many beds that they could make a material difference to a $100 million budget.

As I pointed out earlier... extra security personnel will be required, more quarters will be required, which won't be cheap. Extra vehicles will be brought over because of her. I'd be very much willing to wager that her price tag came close to 1 mil.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Despite the presence of the US military in at least 6 countries, African countries are looking to China for their weapons and ammo.

On the non-military side, African countries are still looking to China, and where was Obama's strategy to combat this? We don't know!

You seem to be working under the impression that international relations are decided with a presidential trip. It doesn't work that way. Obama's visit is just laying the groundwork for diplomatic efforts by the State Department.

And even then, there's a basic limit to how much that diplomacy can effect. African countries are looking more and more to China because the Chinese economy is growing. That's how it works, your economy grows and you have a bigger economic footprint, your influence expands. That Chinese influence is expanding in Africa isn't evidence of anything but the inevitability of an economic reality.

Despite his faults, GW Bush invested more in Africa than Obama has to date.

Bush should receive all due credit for the charitable work he did in Africa, but we shouldn't confuse that charity with expanded diplomatic ties. Note that Chinese influence in Africa first began expanding rapidly during his term, after all.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Also, he could stay at a Motel 6 or something.

The environmentalists wouldn't be happy with that. Leaving a light on for Obama just wastes electric

Ha, good show exalted

 sebster wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Despite the presence of the US military in at least 6 countries, African countries are looking to China for their weapons and ammo.

On the non-military side, African countries are still looking to China, and where was Obama's strategy to combat this? We don't know!

You seem to be working under the impression that international relations are decided with a presidential trip. It doesn't work that way. Obama's visit is just laying the groundwork for diplomatic efforts by the State Department.

And even then, there's a basic limit to how much that diplomacy can effect. African countries are looking more and more to China because the Chinese economy is growing. That's how it works, your economy grows and you have a bigger economic footprint, your influence expands. That Chinese influence is expanding in Africa isn't evidence of anything but the inevitability of an economic reality.

Despite his faults, GW Bush invested more in Africa than Obama has to date.

Bush should receive all due credit for the charitable work he did in Africa, but we shouldn't confuse that charity with expanded diplomatic ties. Note that Chinese influence in Africa first began expanding rapidly during his term, after all.

Fair point about the state department, but a presidential visit is about perception. Given that this is Obama's first trip and given that he gave the impression he couldn't wait to get home, African leaders will rightly, IMO, take that as a sign that Obama has Africa at the bottom of the list of his priorities. It's unlikely Obama will return in his second term. There is truth in this, as the focus of the USA has shifted to Asia.
Bill Clinton was good at these trips, but I can't help feel that this is a wasted opportunity for the Yanks. The Chinese economy is growing, but the American economy is starting to recover as well.

Obama on his second term.....