Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just a quick wonder-
Under the Eldar Autarch's wargear options- you can purchase a power weapon for 15 points.
So is this an instance where you could give him/her a power axe if it showed this on the model?
What do people think?

It says Power Weapon, so see BRB, pg. 61 for what that means. Unless it gets FAQ'd like Banshees in the last edition of course. You'd have to find a bit, since the model came with a sword looking bit.

Homer

Well Page 61 tells us that if a model has a power weapon we look at the model to determine its type, then lists four types of power weapons..

So if the model has an Axe it is a Power Axe, if it is a sword or dagger it is a Power Sword.

So if your model has an axe then it is a power axe.

My Autarch is Custom made anyway-

"Modelling for advantage"
That's the problem with customising... if your doing so in a way that gives you the edge in gameplay it will be thrown out of all but friendly games...

In all tournaments your models will be taken off the table if any arguments arise and replaced by original GW models of the class (if able)...

SUMMARY- 'rule of kool' only works with friends...
'modelling for advantage' everywhere else...

Is it modelling for advantage if the codex gives you the option to choose your power weapon type at the same cost for all?

Surely you are just following the options laid out in the codex while also making your model WYSIWYG?

Perhaps GW should have listed each type of weapon seperately, even if they all cost the same.

That's hardly true for power weapons, though, and there has to be a limit. If a conversion involves nothing more than a kitbash or a weapon swap there should be no trouble even in tournaments.

Otherwise, if you disallow simple conversions, there are all kinds of options you can't take because they're not in the box.
Tactical squads could only take a missile launcher as a heavy weapon...
BA assault squads wouldn't be able to take flamers or meltaguns...
No-one would ever be allowed to give their Techmarine a conversion beamer...
None of the Remnants of Glory or Gifts of Asuryan could be taken for any Eldar...
The list goes on.

Any instance where it says 'Power Weapon', you get to choose which of the 4 power weapon variants you want, based on what you equipped the model with. It's perfectly legal to use a conversion in this case.

In cases where you don't get to choose, the unit entry always will specifically tell you which type of power weapon it has. For instance, Howling Banshees specifically have Power Swords, and thus can never have Power Axes, Mauls or Lances.

In the case of older codexes, check their respective FAQs, as unit entries and weapon profiles often have been updated. Especially if you have a weapon that uses phrasing such as 'x is a power weapon', such as Necron Hyperphase Swords. They are usually changed to a specific variant.

 rohansoldier wrote:
Is it modelling for advantage if the codex gives you the option to choose your power weapon type at the same cost for all?

Surely you are just following the options laid out in the codex while also making your model WYSIWYG?

Perhaps GW should have listed each type of weapon seperately, even if they all cost the same.

Does the original Autarch model come with an axe? then no its not modelling for adv.
Did you have to "head-swap" the weapon to get what you want? or somehow tamper with the model form it's origins? then "model for advantage it is"
As said... In friendly matches more than expectable.. My GF and I play converted and allow MfA just watch when you challenge randoms.. and it's right out in comps

In fact in official GW worldwide comps, they ban 'stand-ins' and dis-allow anything but Codex upgrades specifically (ie can't use Kasrkin for Storm-troopers.. seriously look it up)...
I'm aware how stupid these rules are guys... and how many WTF's this opens up.. been through them all
as I said.. I don't play them... I'm just stating what Competitions allow and/or do.. I myself only ever play friendly's and clearly state what version PW models have... never had a problem playing 'em


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:
That's hardly true for power weapons, though, and there has to be a limit. If a conversion involves nothing more than a kitbash or a weapon swap there should be no trouble even in tournaments.

Otherwise, if you disallow simple conversions, there are all kinds of options you can't take because they're not in the box.
Tactical squads could only take a missile launcher as a heavy weapon...
BA assault squads wouldn't be able to take flamers or meltaguns...
No-one would ever be allowed to give their Techmarine a conversion beamer...
None of the Remnants of Glory or Gifts of Asuryan could be taken for any Eldar...
The list goes on.

And would never be able to play a Tyranid spore-pod.. totally agree it's stupid.. but if you've ever seen how stupidly anal they get in top comps you'd understand, I'm just a messenger..
Don't like the rule? don't play it in friendly's... I never do (neither do any but rule-lawyers come to think of it)

Well its a good thing that there are no rules against modeling for advantage ... so long as it says power weapon you can give him what ever you want.

Strayan wrote:

In fact in official GW worldwide comps, they ban 'stand-ins' and dis-allow anything but Codex upgrades specifically (ie can't use Kasrkin for Storm-troopers.. seriously look it up)...
I'm aware how stupid these rules are guys... and how many WTF's this opens up.. been through them all
as I said.. I don't play them... I'm just stating what Competitions allow and/or do.. I myself only ever play friendly's and clearly state what version PW models have... never had a problem playing 'em

Except for the problem that GW doesn't actually host or support tourneys anymore, and haven't for the past few years, so that invalidates the rest of your argument. The rest is up to the TO's call. The consensus right now is if your Codex says "power weapon", you are allowed to choose which one you want based on what you modeled your model with. This is not considered a form of MfA.

Strayan wrote:
Does the original Autarch model come with an axe? then no its not modelling for adv.
Did you have to "head-swap" the weapon to get what you want? or somehow tamper with the model form it's origins? then "model for advantage it is"
As said... In friendly matches more than expectable.. My GF and I play converted and allow MfA just watch when you challenge randoms.. and it's right out in comps

You clearly don't know what MfA is. MfA is modeling a Daemon Prince half-submerged so you can't claim LOS to it, or building a Battlewagon at 5x the length of a Rhino so you can disembark straight into the enemy's Deployment Zone.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Strayan wrote:

In fact in official GW worldwide comps, they ban 'stand-ins' and dis-allow anything but Codex upgrades specifically (ie can't use Kasrkin for Storm-troopers.. seriously look it up)...
I'm aware how stupid these rules are guys... and how many WTF's this opens up.. been through them all
as I said.. I don't play them... I'm just stating what Competitions allow and/or do.. I myself only ever play friendly's and clearly state what version PW models have... never had a problem playing 'em

Except for the problem that GW doesn't actually host or support tourneys anymore, and haven't for the past few years, so that invalidates the rest of your argument. The rest is up to the TO's call. The consensus right now is if your Codex says "power weapon", you are allowed to choose which one you want based on what you modeled your model with. This is not considered a form of MfA.

Strayan wrote:
Does the original Autarch model come with an axe? then no its not modelling for adv.
Did you have to "head-swap" the weapon to get what you want? or somehow tamper with the model form it's origins? then "model for advantage it is"
As said... In friendly matches more than expectable.. My GF and I play converted and allow MfA just watch when you challenge randoms.. and it's right out in comps

You clearly don't know what MfA is. MfA is modeling a Daemon Prince half-submerged so you can't claim LOS to it, or building a Battlewagon at 5x the length of a Rhino so you can disembark straight into the enemy's Deployment Zone.

YEARS??? they held the last one October last year in north America... (that would be months not years) clearly you are a font of factual information....

 Enigwolf wrote:

Strayan wrote:

In fact in official GW worldwide comps, they ban 'stand-ins' and dis-allow anything but Codex upgrades specifically (ie can't use Kasrkin for Storm-troopers.. seriously look it up)...
I'm aware how stupid these rules are guys... and how many WTF's this opens up.. been through them all
as I said.. I don't play them... I'm just stating what Competitions allow and/or do.. I myself only ever play friendly's and clearly state what version PW models have... never had a problem playing 'em

Except for the problem that GW doesn't actually host or support tourneys anymore, and haven't for the past few years, so that invalidates the rest of your argument. The rest is up to the TO's call. The consensus right now is if your Codex says "power weapon", you are allowed to choose which one you want based on what you modeled your model with. This is not considered a form of MfA.

Strayan wrote:
Does the original Autarch model come with an axe? then no its not modelling for adv.
Did you have to "head-swap" the weapon to get what you want? or somehow tamper with the model form it's origins? then "model for advantage it is"
As said... In friendly matches more than expectable.. My GF and I play converted and allow MfA just watch when you challenge randoms.. and it's right out in comps

You clearly don't know what MfA is. MfA is modeling a Daemon Prince half-submerged so you can't claim LOS to it, or building a Battlewagon at 5x the length of a Rhino so you can disembark straight into the enemy's Deployment Zone.

For a start, GW do still host official tourneys. I've been to 3 of them myself at Warhammer World in Nottingham. And they let you get away with an awful lot of stuff, you should see some of the conversions they let slide at events purely because they look awesome and the opponent is willing to make it clear to the other guy what it is. Last one I was at had a big choppy thing which looked like a Forgeworld Necron Tomb Stalker with the top half of a Soul Grinder grafted onto it. I have no idea what it was, but the events team allowed it. Of course, it may have been modelling for disadvantage because it may have been bigger than the proper model. (General consensus was that it was an Ork Deff Dread and the rusted up Necrons he was using were Nobs etc. I forgot to ask him)

Previous one I went to had an 'all drone' Tau army. The 'Battlesuit Commander' looked to be built out of Battlefleet Gothic space station bits to look like a giant drone.

First one I went to had a Hobbit themed Imperial Guard WW2 army. (yes, WW2 Hobbits) Every Guardsman was converted out of a Ratling model and there were no actual Ratlings. (His opening line to the game? 'No actual Ratlings, these are all just really short Guardsmen')

They also let you use Forgeworld Contemptor Dreads as regular Dreads. And they do let you use Kasrkin as Stormtroopers, seeing as the models are virtually identical and there is now technically no such thing as Kasrkin. As long as you make it clear to your opponent what's what (the guy with the choppy Necron thing even had a crib sheet for his opponents ease of reference)

Their only restriction is that all actual modelling components be GW made. Scratch build is fine by them.

In summary: you have a Power Axe off of another GW mini, even an OOP one? (The old Howling Banshees would be an excellent donor for an Eldar axe) You have a GW Autarch model? Stick the two together and go chop things up, son. Swapping bits around or kitbashing is not MFA at all, it'd certainly fly at GW HQ. The only thing I ever saw an objection to was just after the Tervigon kit came out. One guy had a Tervigon converted out of a Carnifex (pretty god job too) which was considerably smaller than the actual model. They let him off for that event, probably based on the fact that the new kit hadn't been out long, but said he'd need a proper one next time.

BunnyCommando wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Strayan wrote:

In fact in official GW worldwide comps, they ban 'stand-ins' and dis-allow anything but Codex upgrades specifically (ie can't use Kasrkin for Storm-troopers.. seriously look it up)...
I'm aware how stupid these rules are guys... and how many WTF's this opens up.. been through them all
as I said.. I don't play them... I'm just stating what Competitions allow and/or do.. I myself only ever play friendly's and clearly state what version PW models have... never had a problem playing 'em

Except for the problem that GW doesn't actually host or support tourneys anymore, and haven't for the past few years, so that invalidates the rest of your argument. The rest is up to the TO's call. The consensus right now is if your Codex says "power weapon", you are allowed to choose which one you want based on what you modeled your model with. This is not considered a form of MfA.

Strayan wrote:
Does the original Autarch model come with an axe? then no its not modelling for adv.
Did you have to "head-swap" the weapon to get what you want? or somehow tamper with the model form it's origins? then "model for advantage it is"
As said... In friendly matches more than expectable.. My GF and I play converted and allow MfA just watch when you challenge randoms.. and it's right out in comps

You clearly don't know what MfA is. MfA is modeling a Daemon Prince half-submerged so you can't claim LOS to it, or building a Battlewagon at 5x the length of a Rhino so you can disembark straight into the enemy's Deployment Zone.

For a start, GW do still host official tourneys. I've been to 3 of them myself at Warhammer World in Nottingham. And they let you get away with an awful lot of stuff, you should see some of the conversions they let slide at events purely because they look awesome and the opponent is willing to make it clear to the other guy what it is. Last one I was at had a big choppy thing which looked like a Forgeworld Necron Tomb Stalker with the top half of a Soul Grinder grafted onto it. I have no idea what it was, but the events team allowed it. Of course, it may have been modelling for disadvantage because it may have been bigger than the proper model. (General consensus was that it was an Ork Deff Dread and the rusted up Necrons he was using were Nobs etc. I forgot to ask him)

Previous one I went to had an 'all drone' Tau army. The 'Battlesuit Commander' looked to be built out of Battlefleet Gothic space station bits to look like a giant drone.

First one I went to had a Hobbit themed Imperial Guard WW2 army. (yes, WW2 Hobbits) Every Guardsman was converted out of a Ratling model and there were no actual Ratlings. (His opening line to the game? 'No actual Ratlings, these are all just really short Guardsmen')

They also let you use Forgeworld Contemptor Dreads as regular Dreads. And they do let you use Kasrkin as Stormtroopers, seeing as the models are virtually identical and there is now technically no such thing as Kasrkin. As long as you make it clear to your opponent what's what (the guy with the choppy Necron thing even had a crib sheet for his opponents ease of reference)

Their only restriction is that all actual modelling components be GW made. Scratch build is fine by them.

In summary: you have a Power Axe off of another GW mini, even an OOP one? (The old Howling Banshees would be an excellent donor for an Eldar axe) You have a GW Autarch model? Stick the two together and go chop things up, son. Swapping bits around or kitbashing is not MFA at all, it'd certainly fly at GW HQ. The only thing I ever saw an objection to was just after the Tervigon kit came out. One guy had a Tervigon converted out of a Carnifex (pretty god job too) which was considerably smaller than the actual model. They let him off for that event, probably based on the fact that the new kit hadn't been out long, but said he'd need a proper one next time.

Ben my experience at Lenton as well. The Necrorks were awesome.

Never had any one I've actually played with call switching a power weapon MFA either; those only seem to exist on forums.

It's a daft argument anyway. For example, there are only 3 Autarch models available from GW, each with a distinct loadout. For instance, if you want a power weapon, you'd either have to get the one with Swooping Hawk wings or a Jetbike.

And it's not really modelling for advantage anyway, as the different power weapons (with perhaps the Lance excepted, I never see anyone take those), are pretty balanced gameplay wise.

Totally not modeling for advantage. It says the generic "power weapon" in the wargear section. This gives you the option to run your Autarch how you want to run him, as each "power weapon" listed in the BRB has its advantages/disadvantages. It's giving you the tactical flexibility to play him to your style, not cheating.

If they wanted you to take a specific kind of power weapon they would have told you what it was, like they did with Howling Banshees and Storm Guardians.

If that's the case, my Autarch I made from a support weapon, Scorpion exarch, dire avenger and old howling banshee is completely invalid... Oh well, he looked really cool as well...

But in seriousness, you can kit-bash and weapon swap away. ESPECIALLY if the unit entry has the option for it. Modeling for advantage is just that - Modeling for an advantage. Like making something so small it can never be shot at, or something so big it always has LOS etc

Carry on with your autarch, and enjoy


Von Chogg

Look Modeling for advantage would be this model on a base



(really nice modeling being done but not to advantage http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271234.page)

Or this, ironically enough, considering it's a GW picture:

Ofc, that Autarch with power weapon would be quite MFA if you kitbashed him so you can swap the power weapon when you see the enemy and start setting up. Axe vs Deathwing, sword vs mainly 3+ saves and so on.

Usually you are required to state what you are taking on your army list, or at least I do. Before a tourney sure, swap all you want based on the meta, but once it starts your list is locked and that arm stays on.

S.K.Ren wrote:
Usually you are required to state what you are taking on your army list, or at least I do. Before a tourney sure, swap all you want based on the meta, but once it starts your list is locked and that arm stays on.

Every tourney I've played in or seen the packets for require you to state the specific power weapon type.

Absolutely, for a tournament setting especially you just have to state on your list what type of power weapon. Then you're good to go. And what somebody said about swapping out as you see somebody setting up, that would be a jerk move as well. Show up knowing what type of PW you're going to use, and stick with it.

Very interesting discussion.

I am generally inclined to agree with those saying you can choose, given that it does not specify what type it is ... but that does bring up another curiosity:

Would you then be able to argue modelling an Autarch with one of these little numbers?:

Carresuith wrote:
Very interesting discussion.

I am generally inclined to agree with those saying you can choose, given that it does not specify what type it is ... but that does bring up another curiosity:

Would you then be able to argue modelling an Autarch with one of these little numbers?:

It will never be WYSIWYG, and some people might object on those grounds, but given he can't take a Scorpion Claw, it shouldn't be too confusing for anyone so long as you say up front what he is armed with.

Ah, I see now.

Didn't realize that fists / claws were not included in the list of four choices on pg. 61. Damn.