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Boston

So, I've seen a lot of lists that incorporate an ADL so that got me wondering why the defense line is so popular, but I haven't seen anything incorporating the imperial bastion...

On paper, the bastion gives you an ADL (including quad gun) + a batch of heavy bolters for +25 points... admittedly unless you're modeling for advantage, you're probably only going to get 1 or two HB shots per turn, but that strikes me that it might be worth it...

Ok, so you can't put vehicles _inside_ the bastion, but you can block LOS (in theory, I dunno if the new rhinos can be seen from behind it) or at least get a similar cover save, no?

Now, I certainly understand fluffy objections... I don't think I'd take a bastion because it seems like too big an investment in fortifying for forces that are quick-hitting/moving, whereas the ADL feels like something that a mobile force could set up quickly... but is there a gameplay reason that the bastion doesn't work that I'm not seeing?

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I think the biggest problem is just size. Unlike the ADL which can fit just about everywhere, the bastion is actually big and bulky. If you are going to a store to play you may not want to lug that thing around. Also from what I have seen it has no way to easily break down. I think if it was easier to transport it would be more popular.
   
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Battleship Captain




Oregon

I want to like the Bastion but I'm turned off by all the extra rules involved with buildings compared to an ADL.

That said, it has a lot of potential hiding expensive elite armies that can get saves against the various collapsing results.
   
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Making a unit "embark" and suddenly become fearless in a AV 14 box is a turn off?
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I've used it and it's a death trap big time look at some of those damage results.
Also you can score from in there
   
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Devastating Dark Reaper




Most in my meta don't use it (nor landing platform) because it's poorly written rules-wise one way or the other... like most of 6th ed.
Great ideas... poorly executed...

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Lost in the Warp

I'm going to be fielding a Bastion for my GK+Tau Allies to sit my Broadsides inside since they always get shot up first, so I don't need to get shield drones for them. It's great for putting an otherwise vulnerable firing station way up front, and allows for you to do so without the risk of them getting shot to hell and back or getting charged.

The meta now is shifting away from AV14, so having an all-around AV14 with firing points is good. It's essentially a Land Raider with firing points for 75 points. The size of carrying one around, though...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/03 10:43:47


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Australia

I love the model, always have, but I feel like a chump rocking up to a game and plonking down my little pillow fort! I save it for home games because it just doesn't feel like something that an army might just randomly have on them in an encounter. I get the idea but it just feels weird.

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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Given the number of armies that can now ignore cover, the advantage of the ADL is starting to fade. The bastion, however, still provides the full amount of protection even with cover-avoiding weapons.

The trick is that the bastion cannot be used to screen half your army, like the ADL. The bastion instead is good for 3 different units.
   
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Raging Ravener



Powys

 lambsandlions wrote:
I think the biggest problem is just size. Unlike the ADL which can fit just about everywhere, the bastion is actually big and bulky. If you are going to a store to play you may not want to lug that thing around. Also from what I have seen it has no way to easily break down. I think if it was easier to transport it would be more popular.


That was my concern in writing one into my Tourney list, but it turns out that it breaks down nicely. Two wall sections, then the battlement wall and the 5 bits that make up the floor. With careful arrangement, the whole thing fits neatly into half of a standard KR multicase box. (Upend the lower half, nestle the top section inside it, then the battlement wall sits in front of it at an angle. The wall sections then go wherever you want them to.) The locating lugs that help you to assemble the various sections also hold the model together quite nicely as well.

But I didn't see many of them at my last Tourney (and even less Skyshield landing pads, there was a grand total of 1) so I don't think many people have figured out my way of breaking it down.

I love mine. 5 Grey Knights with 2 Psycannons on the upper level, poke the Psycannons and 2 Storm Bolters out of the firing slits, and let the other guy man the Heavy Bolter. Cast Warpquake to stop those annoying Melta Marines Podding in to slag your building and Bob's your Uncle. (The Vidicare manning the ICarus on the roof is just a happy bonus)

Just watch out for MCs. :(

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I prefer to actually deploy my models on the table, instead of having them sit on the side while we all pretend they are in a building.
   
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Bunch of reasons:
1: Most units you want to hide in a bastion are units that arent normally survivable. However, any pen causes those units to start taking some pretty serious hits.
2: Expensive. 50 points for ADL. 75 points for bastion
3: No fire points beyond HB. Therefore heavy weps squads wont hide in it and face init tests if the building is destroyed and they are on top.
4: "hiding" a squad is not very useful. If i wanted to hide a squad, i would reserve it. sitting a squad inside a bastion is hiding it.
5: Too large to easily tote around, too small to have much of an impact on the table. ADL provide cover for most of your army. Bastion for only a few things.

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 zephoid wrote:
Bunch of reasons:

3: No fire points beyond HB. Therefore heavy weps squads wont hide in it and face init tests if the building is destroyed and they are on top.
4: "hiding" a squad is not very useful. If i wanted to hide a squad, i would reserve it. sitting a squad inside a bastion is hiding it.
5: Too large to easily tote around, too small to have much of an impact on the table. ADL provide cover for most of your army. Bastion for only a few things.


Bastions have windows that allow firing points. IIRC, there are two on each facing.
As for hiding a squad, the biggest argument is about all of the ignoring cover weapons emerging. Bastions and vehicles are the only thing that counter this.
I concede point 5. An ADL packs up much easier.

The bastion has its merits. I would not simply write it off. It may not fit your list or playstyle, but it is definitely a viable choice.

As for damage results decimating people inside and/or on the roof, that is definitely a possibility.

 
   
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Lost in the Warp

 zephoid wrote:
Bunch of reasons:
1: Most units you want to hide in a bastion are units that arent normally survivable. However, any pen causes those units to start taking some pretty serious hits.
2: Expensive. 50 points for ADL. 75 points for bastion
3: No fire points beyond HB. Therefore heavy weps squads wont hide in it and face init tests if the building is destroyed and they are on top.
4: "hiding" a squad is not very useful. If i wanted to hide a squad, i would reserve it. sitting a squad inside a bastion is hiding it.
5: Too large to easily tote around, too small to have much of an impact on the table. ADL provide cover for most of your army. Bastion for only a few things.


1. Any pen result only causes Strength 6 hits. This is a lot better than taking a Strength 8 or Strength 9 weapon to the face that can instant-death you, e.g. Lascannon to a Broadside suit. Using the same example, my 2+ save shrugs it off with no problem. Very few weapons out there can reliably pen AV14 either, without getting up close.

2. 25 points more isn't that much, considering the huge upgrade in survivability. There are too many Ignore Cover weapons around, like Tau markerlights, so the ADL isn't that good a choice anymore. ADLs also risk you getting charged and are directional, thus a DS unit landing behind will shoot your squad with impunity. I've Deepstriked Tarantula sentry guns with TLHBs behind ADLs with great effect.

3. Firing points are listed "As per model". There are approximately 2 on each side, of which each allows 2 models to fire from. This allows a full HW squad to fire from one side.

4. Reserving a squad isn't a great idea if it's a shooty squad...

5. I agree with the ease of portability use, but only that. Bastions have a Transport Capacity of 20 models plus battlements - it's enough for most of my starting on-board army (GK+Tau).

Conclusion: Bastions are worth the 25 points upgrade from an ADL.

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Battleship Captain




Oregon

Would be interesting to drop a trio of Oblits into one. Now they are Fearless with a 2+ for the damage results. Hide some Blood Letters on the quad gun on the roof.

I want to like it, would be perfect for my IW, but transport and extra rule hassles are an issue, as is cost over ADL.
   
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DC Metro

I love seeing my opponents field Bastions rather than ADLs. I can kill bastions since I still bring lascannons and multimeltas. In addition, the combination of height and battlements mean that there is a sizable dead zone that the gun emplacement can't fire on.
   
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I consider an ADL in every list. Bastion is like taking pyrovores or banshees. There is always something better to do with those points. A skyshield is pretty much always a better investment and is much easier to transport if you magnetize the legs. 4+ inv and 5+ cover (if you can improve it via G2G or stealth) that cant be destroyed and functions in melee and works on tanks. Versus an AV14 (well, maybe not even 14 after a turn or two since you can degrade armor) bunker that hurts you when destroyed.

1: Who cares about ID. Are you seriously running paladin squads in a bastion? Where lascannons and missiles are single shots, you take a serious number of S6 hits for partial and total collapse. S6 is deadly to guard and guard have one of the few multi-wound infantry in the game (HWT) so the difference between S6 and S8 is all of nothing.

2: Survivability is very relative. You can hide one squad in a bastion and maybe one on top. My whole army gets cover from an ADL. If you seriously are taking a bastion over an ADL for the one army in the game that can negate cover you have a very single-minded priority or are tailoring a list to anti-tau. Eldar have the wave serpent shield and thats it to ignore cover. At S7 and AP- its probably doing less damage than building collapses.

3: I had forgotten that it does have firing points, though it alternates 2-1-2-1 on facings. Still worse than the "open topped" skyshield.

4: Reserve is an amazing idea for shooty squads without HW. Why the hell would i reserve a melee squad? Reserving some guardians or jetbikes for some solutions to deepstrike, outflank, or air-drop is always a good idea. Keeps troops safe, gives you firepower where you need it, and makes the enemy account for your even greater mobility or risk losing squads. I do it with the odd hellhound or plasma grenadeer squads with DKOK too.

5: 20 models that must be in one squad. Its a transport, you cant fit more than 1 squad inside. Sticking things on the roof is even worse for that combo. Jump down at -2 (its 6" tall) on the check or die after the building collapses. So half your squad dies on average.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/03 14:22:53


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I use it to get my lootas on high ground. You can easilly fit twelve or thirteen of them on the roof.

I don't play tourneys though.

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 zephoid wrote:
I consider an ADL in every list. Bastion is like taking pyrovores or banshees. There is always something better to do with those points. A skyshield is pretty much always a better investment and is much easier to transport if you magnetize the legs. 4+ inv and 5+ cover (if you can improve it via G2G or stealth) that cant be destroyed and functions in melee and works on tanks. Versus an AV14 (well, maybe not even 14 after a turn or two since you can degrade armor) bunker that hurts you when destroyed.

1: Who cares about ID. Are you seriously running paladin squads in a bastion? Where lascannons and missiles are single shots, you take a serious number of S6 hits for partial and total collapse. S6 is deadly to guard and guard have one of the few multi-wound infantry in the game (HWT) so the difference between S6 and S8 is all of nothing.

2: Survivability is very relative. You can hide one squad in a bastion and maybe one on top. My whole army gets cover from an ADL. If you seriously are taking a bastion over an ADL for the one army in the game that can negate cover you have a very single-minded priority or are tailoring a list to anti-tau. Eldar have the wave serpent shield and thats it to ignore cover. At S7 and AP- its probably doing less damage than building collapses.

3: I had forgotten that it does have firing points, though it alternates 2-1-2-1 on facings. Still worse than the "open topped" skyshield.

4: Reserve is an amazing idea for shooty squads without HW. Why the hell would i reserve a melee squad? Reserving some guardians or jetbikes for some solutions to deepstrike, outflank, or air-drop is always a good idea. Keeps troops safe, gives you firepower where you need it, and makes the enemy account for your even greater mobility or risk losing squads. I do it with the odd hellhound or plasma grenadeer squads with DKOK too.

5: 20 models that must be in one squad. Its a transport, you cant fit more than 1 squad inside. Sticking things on the roof is even worse for that combo. Jump down at -2 (its 6" tall) on the check or die after the building collapses. So half your squad dies on average.


1. No, I'm running Missilesides in a Bastion as they always get focus-fired by everything Strength 5, 6, 7, and 8. My army doesn't need cover save a few units that do.
2.Serpent Shield spams are going to become a lot more prevalent in the coming months. Good luck for ADL campers. I bet you that we're going to see a lot more Ignore Cover weapons coming in the next releases too - it's been the trend that the last two 'dexes have set.
3. See above. I don't have 20 men inside that need to shoot, only 3.
4. Sure. I do walk-on Fire Warrior squads, so I don't put them in my Bastion. But I'm not going to walk-on a Broadside or Pathfinder squad that can have an effect from T1 and only snap-shot the turn they come on. I wasn't saying that Reserves was a bad idea.
5. Units inside don't need to jump down (unless catastrophic collapse happens), they can move through the building without needing to take an Impact test and disembark as they would normally from a vehicle. Also, your math is off. Impact Tests are merely DTs with a modifier, so you can still take Armor Saves. Less than half your squad will die on average.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/03 14:34:17


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I thought the rules disallowed armor saves for jumping down.
   
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DC Metro

Impact tests do not allow armor saves, and they are not negated by Move Through Cover. In addition, you can't move down from the roof through the building if the building is occupied. Being on the roof of a building is an awful place to be.
   
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I stand corrected regarding Impact tests. However, you CAN move directly from the roof to exit and vice versa if the building is occupied by a friendly unit. Page 95, BRB.

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Bastions are a mixed bag. Really, it entirely depends on your army list and what you expect to be facing if its an appropriate choice. Much like anything else in this game.

I've been taking a Bastion over an ADL for a few games now. For my current list, there are several advantages offered:

1. AV 14. Not a lot can deal with AV 14 reliably so its relatively safe. Most of the things that can realistically deal with it have other targets they generally want to shoot at.

2. I can put a Long Fang Pack on the roof of the building while another one is embarked in the building.

3. Against Heldrakes, one of my Long Fang Packs only has to worry about D6 hits. The unit is too small to spread out enough to prevent a Torrent weapon from being able to nab them all, so its nice having a chance that the whole unit won't get wiped out.

4. My Long Fang Pack Leader can fire a Heavy Bolter while the rest of his squad fires from the Fire Points.

5. It is important to note, you have Access Points and Fire Points "as per model", so potentially you could have as many as you want on any given facing. My Bastion is currently part of a 12-pack of Coke since I'm not sold on it yet.


It's only been a few games, but I have one problem with it:

1. The unit on the roof is not Fearless, and when they break they have to jump down if you already have a unit inside. Given the height of a Bastion, its a 50% chance each surviving model will die. Also, if you placed your Quad Gun on the roof, now no one is manning it without sacrificing firepower by moving.


Since my current list is rocking x3 Long Fang Packs (soon to change I think) it would probably have been better to take a Skyshield Landing Pad (4++ against the Torrent from a Heldrake following RAW is tasty), except then I don't get a gun emplacement. But then the only massive weakness I've had to deal with locally is things Ignoring Cover Saves.


   
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actually there's a lot of misinformation going on in general in this thread and I think it's really the lack of use of this model so I'll clarify some of them through here as I use the bastion extensively and have actually won local RTTs with it and have seen it win or at least place high in other RTT's where I was spectating as well.

P95 - you can actually have a ladder or the like on the side of the building. It will allow access to the roof without going through the inside (fist column 5th paragraph down)

P 116 - there's actually 3 firing points possible on 2 of the sides and 1 to 0 based on where you place the door. It's 2 on the mid level and one on the bottom level that may or may not be covered by the door. There are no exact standards on which facing the door must be on. You can have one side with 3 firing points anyway even if you put the door exactly as pictured on page 116.

Each firing point allows 2 models to shoot through -p 93. You can have a squad of 4 devestators all shooting their weapons through even sides with just 2 firing points and can have the sergeant shooting the emplaced heavy bolter.

P96 - you can even fire automatically at other targets with automated fire rules

p18 - most places tend to agree that a vehicle that is 25% obscured will get 3+ cover from this purpose built fortified building. This will stack with things like camo cover, holofields and disruption pods and you will get a 2+ cover with tanks that are partially obscured here. Can generally fit one on each side. While you can't cover a whole gunline, you often don't need to. It's played very differently. You can also guarantee that your squishy models with barrage are nice and protected from LOS so that they can't even target you with things like necron 120' gauss pylons

Given the amount of cover save stripping powers, having completely blocked LOS is often more important and just a good cover save. I've used this to be as far forward as possible in my deployment zone as FMC daemons before just so I can guarantee that I can start on the board and have nothing being able to target me as I'll be deploying them quite far forward as possible. Hiding the portaglyph is also very useful in this scenario. It's like taking fateweaver. It takes some of the random out of chaos daemons and that makes them more consistently good.

P93 last paragraph- you can just leave the building as a nice LOS blocker that's essentially invulnerable as it cannot be attacked so it can't be targeted at all (though you can still scatter into it)

---------------------------------------

The bastion isn't for hiding a gunline so it doesn't do the same thing as an Aegis. It does block 1-3 units extremely well. provides an elevated position for long range weapon systems to get a LOS (conversion beamers come to mind). It can hold down a corner extremely well and can be a very nice fire base. It is not as nearly as hard to bring around as say a skyshield. That thing is way too massive. It is also hollow on the inside. I actually slide my bits bin and glue inside to make space when traveling. Also tau tetras/speeders fit well inside.

Favorite tactic at present with a bastion - coteaz with 2 PC servitors + 2 jokaeros with some bolter henchemen and an Icarus lascannon on top. The inside will have some battle sister allies with heavy bolters that may get rending. 5 woman squad with 4 heavy bolters purchased and the sister superior shooting the emplaced heavy bolter is quite effective as anti-horde and other things if I get enough rends. 3+ armor is good enough for the odd glancing hit. GK warpquake and coteaz's IBEY (often with divination and lots of AP2) is enough to deter anything trying to deep strike melta the thing.

No, I can't hide an entire IG platoon behind it but then again, not every army can field or even have a large enough horde to take advantage of such a thing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/03 15:50:13


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Don't forget that for any S6 hits inflicted by building damage, the unit in the battlements takes the same number of S3 hits.

But I guess if your opponent lets you use an optimally sized cardboard box with all the fire ports on the same side, you're going to think it's better than it actually is.

And I have to ask. With no tanks in your army, what better is there to shoot lascannons or bright and dark lances, or multimeltas, or demolisher cannons at than a building full of Long Fangs?
   
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zephoid wrote:Bastion is like taking pyrovores or banshees. There is always something better to do with those points.
1: Most units you want to hide in a bastion are units that arent normally survivable. However, any pen causes those units to start taking some pretty serious hits.
2: Expensive. 50 points for ADL. 75 points for bastion
3: No fire points beyond HB. Therefore heavy weps squads wont hide in it and face init tests if the building is destroyed and they are on top.
4: "hiding" a squad is not very useful. If i wanted to hide a squad, i would reserve it. sitting a squad inside a bastion is hiding it.
5: Too large to easily tote around, too small to have much of an impact on the table. ADL provide cover for most of your army. Bastion for only a few things.
Your spreading mis-information. The bastion is not askin to pyrovores or banshees.

1) It is much harder to penetrate AV 14 than it is to cause a wound on a single T4 model.

2) The bastion is 25 points more than the ADL. That's only a 1.25% of a 2000 point game. The cost difference is marginal between the two.

3) Your incorrect on the fire points. As mentioned, you can have 4 heavy weapons fire out easily from elevated fire points.

4) Hiding a squad is extremely useful in today's meta. More armies now have tools that ignore cover. This means that the ADL is not as useful for protecting non-MEQ armies.

5) You must have the bastion confused with the fortress of redemption. The bastion fits into my tablewar case easily, next to my soulgrinder. If you play with flyers, MCs, etc, your probably used to taking large models.

I suspect your strongly biased to the ADL as its treated you well in your games. The bastion is a different kind of fortification, and one that still has value.
For example, if your playing a list with 6 flyers, a bastion can help you to keep from getting tabled before your flyers can come onto the board, where an ADL will not be able to complete this.
Another good use of the bastion is to hide a FMC so you can start with it on the board, giving you one more turn of effect.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/03 15:56:54


 
   
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One of the guys at my local store uses a Bastion from time to time. In one game, his opponent threw grenades into it to kill the squad inside and then melee'ed his way to the roof - fully overtaking it. The fact that your opponent can sneak into the lower level while you're on the roof makes it a liability and a requirement to keep 2 units in it. If you can get it close to an objective, it can be useful, else it is arguably harder to defend than a ADL.
   
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Never used one, but I like the sound of Bastions. Hiding a squad inside sounds great, and I think its worth it putting a squad on top. The Bastion isnt exactly getting closer to the enemy, he shouldn't have much pointing at it, and the kind of firepower needed is a lot considering its low points cost. Consider that 4 Havocs in a Bastion are less than 200 points for the firepower, and toughness, that it includes.


 
   
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Camas, WA

I think folks haven't actually seen them used very much. I run the bastion a lot and it has only ever been blown up twice. Either people don't prioritize it because it isn't worth VP and isn't a threat in itself, or they come back to it and can't take out av14 at range.

Once: Weirdboy melta power.
Twice: Scarab charge

Other than that it contains retributors for the 2 extra rending heavy bolters and some squad on top to run the quad/icarus. I've jumped off, moved through, etc. No one has ever taken over the whole thing through assault or otherwise.

I generally put the back door next to an objective and face it so that two facings are pointed at the enemy deployment. This allows maximum use of the emplaced weapons (you can really only ever fire 2 at one target). I also make sure to use auto-fire whenever possible against other targets. I also usually hide an exorcist or manticore behind it for the 3+ save.

For Sisters, that thing is a steal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/03 16:01:29


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Pacific NW

 sudojoe wrote:
P95 - you can actually have a ladder or the like on the side of the building. It will allow access to the roof without going through the inside (fist column 5th paragraph down)

The Imperial Bastion model does not come with an external Ladder. Adding one would be modeling for advantage and is against the rules. So no, you aren't "saved" by anything on Page 95.

 sudojoe wrote:
P 116 - there's actually 3 firing points possible on 2 of the sides and 1 to 0 based on where you place the door. It's 2 on the mid level and one on the bottom level that may or may not be covered by the door. There are no exact standards on which facing the door must be on. You can have one side with 3 firing points anyway even if you put the door exactly as pictured on page 116.

RAW, an Access Point is not a Fire Point. So you cannot "shoot through the door". You are misunderstanding the rules.

Heck, from a fluff perspective it wouldn't make sense to do so since the door of a bunker/bastion is supposed to be secured during combat. Can't do that if you left it open to fire out of.

 sudojoe wrote:
p18 - most places tend to agree that a vehicle that is 25% obscured will get 3+ cover from this purpose built fortified building.

Just a clarification here. An Imperial Bastion is a Medium Building according to its data sheet (meaning it can "transport" 20 models). There is no such thing as a "fortified building". Most people I know agree that it counts as a "Fortification" for Cover purposes even though the ADL itself does not. Since its supposed to be a purpose built bunker, like the Fortress of Redemption. Not everyone agrees with this however, so do not just assume your opponent things the same as you!


   
 
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